Mushrraf: Fundamentalists in the Army

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

The point Honorable Ex President of Pakistan Musharaf was making was , there is nothing to worry about we have every thing in control

He is just taking a small vacation till next election and soon he will report back in office after his vacation is over -

In any case, Tony Blair was a Catholic Fundamentalist ? Head of Great Britain while he was in power of course he did not say nothing always pretending he was on war to help Iraqis

Reference:
Tony Blair joins Catholic Church.(CENTURY news) - The Christian Century | Encyclopedia.com

If England can be run by a fundamentalist - I don't understand what the debate is about

Or lets say Bush all the people he associates with are .. fundamentalist

PC(USA) News Release Number 05207 -- Bush evangelical?
Evengelical Fundamentalist

like I said , there are always two edges to any sword

One person's fundamentalist is not necessarily another person's fundamentalist

The army is pretty secular and westernized is what Musharaf wanted to stress -

 

[Bhaarat]

The point Honorable Ex President of Pakistan Musharaf was making was , there is nothing to worry about we have every thing in control

Yes, he was trying to say that, but even then he could not outrightly deny any presence of fundamentalists, he had to admit their presence. Because it is an accepted knowledge that there are radicals in PA, and growing. Musharraf is partly right that, right now, there is no danger, but 6months from now or 1yr from now is a different issue.

BTW, these fundamentalists are not really villians, these are simply those people who love their religion and sympathise with the stated goals of talibs about implementing sharia, about using islam as the basis for ruling pakistan.

He is just taking a small vacation till next election and soon he will report back in office after his vacation is over -

Thats true, Musharraf wants to come back. He hopes that sooner than later, PA will oust PPP govt and reinstate him because he is positioning himself as sympathetic to PA.
But, just one thing, right now Musharraf is in Britain enjoying a royal hosting. Britain is spending crores of ruppees for Musharraf. Why? What does britain gain? Simple, UK is positioning itself to take advantage of a situation when Musharraf gets into power. Once he gets to power, he will be manipulated.

In any case, Tony Blair was a Catholic Fundamentalist ? Head of Great Britain while he was in power of course he did not say nothing always pretending he was on war to help Iraqis

Reference:
Tony Blair joins Catholic Church.(CENTURY news) - The Christian Century | Encyclopedia.com

If England can be run by a fundamentalist - I don't understand what the debate is about

Or lets say Bush all the people he associates with are .. fundamentalist

PC(USA) News Release Number 05207 -- Bush evangelical?
Evengelical Fundamentalist

like I said , there are always two edges to any sword

One person's fundamentalist is not necessarily another person's fundamentalist

No comments, I am not in know of things you mentioned.

The army is pretty secular and westernized is what Musharaf wanted to stress -

Yes, he wanted to stress on that to gain sympathy of PA.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Yes, he was trying to say that, but even then he could not outrightly deny any presence of fundamentalists, he had to admit their presence. Because it is an accepted knowledge that there are radicals in PA, and growing. Musharraf is partly right that, right now, there is no danger, but 6months from now or 1yr from now is a different issue.

BTW, these fundamentalists are not really villians, these are simply those people who love their religion and sympathise with the stated goals of talibs about implementing sharia, about using islam as the basis for ruling pakistan.



Thats true, Musharraf wants to come back. He hopes that sooner than later, PA will oust PPP govt and reinstate him because he is positioning himself as sympathetic to PA.
But, just one thing, right now Musharraf is in Britain enjoying a royal hosting. Britain is spending crores of ruppees for Musharraf. Why? What does britain gain? Simple, UK is positioning itself to take advantage of a situation when Musharraf gets into power. Once he gets to power, he will be manipulated.



No comments, I am not in know of things you mentioned.



Yes, he wanted to stress on that to gain sympathy of PA.

Well there could be a pujari fundamentalist in Indian army , then would that mean the whole indian army is fundamentalist ?

If a Seikh wears a turban in Indian army I could say well boy he is a fundamentalist Seikh does not want to remove his turban , or cut his beard

A typical Redneck would look at Seikh Solider say he is a fundamentalist -

So who is a fundamentalist - or not is debatable


If Musharaf said that is in touch with Kiani that means he is in touch , army is not like politicians , army folks they stick together - Army is aware of the people and they make sure only the cool ones make it to top ranks

So even if someone is a fundamentalist - , so what ? All nations have some beliefs, and fundamental values they live by and what ever they may be , are one's personal choice.


What musharf is doing now is he is trying to stay in limelight , he is a artist PUBLIC relations artist , even when he is totally out of power he is making comments to be relevant in politics and sell his speeches in universities and make 159,000$ / speech .. etc

He is a business man , politicians he is the most interesting man in world , girls love him , people want to be with him , business man think he is briliant for business , investors love him ... genius his move, I think he was the one leader that almost solved the Kashmir issue with dialogue


And he has a cool farm land and dog as pet is that not enough to gain anyone to want to know more about Musharaf ...

I mean even Bush invited him for Steak BBQ at his ranch ... how cool is that
did any one invite Manmohan singh to BBQ ?? at ranch ...


Musharaf was different

Good or bad he is our Musharaf he got us out of mess many times good leader

If there was no Terrorism , I am sure he would have made us 500 billion / year economy in his 10 years

 

[TalibanSwatter]

Musharaf was different

Good or bad he is our Musharaf he got us out of mess many times good leader

You are joking......right?

Musharraf is partly the reason why we are in the mess we are in. And I'm not even going to mention his shenanigans against the judiciary and the media.

If he had honestly dealt with the AQ/Taliban jihadi threat in the early days after 9/11, we would not have had to deal with the TTP monster running amok today. His flawed policy (to a great extent representative of the military establishment's policy at the time) of hunting with the hounds and running with the hare has come back to haunt us.

It has become clear that a chunk of militant sympathizers were weeded out only after Gen Kiyani took over, which indicates that Mush did not do a very good job of weeding out the pro-jihadi bloc from the military.

 

[Ababeel]

He put Pak in all the troubles faced right now. Secular leaders like him are the real cause of the extremism in society. And taking advantage of this situation, India used that extremism in its favour by creating TTP and using it to destroy Pakistan in all fields, wether its economy, defence resources, Image of the country etc. You can't understand Brahmins.
As a nation created in the name of Islam, its laws and panel code is still British. Quran has been set aside.
Stablishing Shariah is the only way to live and die as a proper muslim. Secularism or Athism has no place in Islam. Secondly stablishing Shariah will isolate the TTP as they will be without the cause after that (It dosen't looks to be their real motive, which I doubt myself). Regarding TTP I support Zaid Hamid's point of view. TTP is the biggest asset of India.

 

[Moorkh]

He put Pak in all the troubles faced right now. Secular leaders like him are the real cause of the extremism in society. And taking advantage of this situation, India used that extremism in its favour by creating TTP and using it to destroy Pakistan in all fields, wether its economy, defence resources, Image of the country etc.

firstly secular does not mean anti islam, and islam being the most secular religion around should have no problem with secularism. so how do the secular leaders adversely affect pakistan?

also who created that extremism in the first place. india surely did not.

you may blame US for creating the jihadis but u forget that without active support from pakistanis they would have never succeeded in doing so. so it is the "muslim pakistan" which created the extremists. these extremists are now out of your control and are being portrayed as villians. they were not portrayed as such before 9/11. pakistan had very very good relations with the taliban which had similar ideology as the TTP and other extremists.

Stablishing Shariah is the only way to live and die as a proper muslim.

establishing sharia is what the TTP also wants to do. the only difference is that the TTP claims your interpretation of sharia to be incorrect, and theirs to be correct. it reduces to a theological debate there.

Regarding TTP I support Zaid Hamid's point of view. TTP is the biggest asset of India.

the TTP might be useful to india to destabilize india but india can not risk their success. if the TTP succeeds and takes over pakistan the condition will be worse than it is now.

right now the GoP has to at least act like it is acting against the islamic millitants and terrorists. if the TTP takes over it will openly support them. that will create more problems for inida. so the TTP is not as big an asset as you claim.

 

[PakShaheen79]

firstly secular does not mean anti islam, and islam being the most secular religion around should have no problem with secularism. so how do the secular leaders adversely affect pakistan?

also who created that extremism in the first place. india surely did not.

you may blame US for creating the jihadis but u forget that without active support from pakistanis they would have never succeeded in doing so. so it is the "muslim pakistan" which created the extremists. these extremists are now out of your control and are being portrayed as villians. they were not portrayed as such before 9/11. pakistan had very very good relations with the taliban which had similar ideology as the TTP and other extremists.




establishing sharia is what the TTP also wants to do. the only difference is that the TTP claims your interpretation of sharia to be incorrect, and theirs to be correct. it reduces to a theological debate there.



the TTP might be useful to india to destabilize india but india can not risk their success. if the TTP succeeds and takes over pakistan the condition will be worse than it is now.

right now the GoP has to at least act like it is acting against the islamic millitants and terrorists. if the TTP takes over it will openly support them. that will create more problems for inida. so the TTP is not as big an asset as you claim.

Esytablishing Sharia was only demanded in Swat... not in Waziristan. In FATA TTP never used that... their excuse was to punish Pakistan army as it is supporting US in Afghanistan. TTP never fired a single bullet in Afghanistan. Sharia thing was limited to Swat only.

Mukti Bahni paved way for Pakistani dismemberment in 1971 and took over from Pakistan army.,. did it create any trouble for India afterward? I don't think so.

 

[Bhaarat]

.
Secondly stablishing Shariah will isolate the TTP as they will be without the cause after that

True.

(It dosen't looks to be their real motive, which I doubt myself).

Its the real motive for those who are fighting, but not for those who are plotting.

Regarding TTP I support Zaid Hamid's point of view. TTP is the biggest asset of India.

No, there are other more valuable assets, even within political and military circles. But, right now the gains are coming from TTP's side aided by assets in other fields/circles.

 

[Bhaarat]

Mukti Bahni paved way for Pakistani dismemberment in 1971 and took over from Pakistan army.,. did it create any trouble for India afterward? I don't think so.

Good comparison between Mukti Bahini and TTP.
The future generations of Pakistan maybe praising TTP for its work just like Mukti Bahini is praised in Bangladesh.

 

[Bhaarat]

AzadPakistan,

If you see/read the interview its clear that the question is about growing fundamentalism within PA, not about random, fringe, or isolated fundamentalists, but about general trend of growing radicalization of PA. Musharraf replied to it in his usual style, still he had to admit certain things. That are a good indication for us.

But I agree with you that the definition of 'fundamentalism' maybe different for an american and a pakistani. Nevertheless, its clear that radicalization is growing due to the present war against TTP.

 

[Moorkh]

Esytablishing Sharia was only demanded in Swat... not in Waziristan. In FATA TTP never used that... their excuse was to punish Pakistan army as it is supporting US in Afghanistan. TTP never fired a single bullet in Afghanistan. Sharia thing was limited to Swat only.

if that was the rationale of the TTP for fighting the PA in FATA , i wasnt too far off the mark.

US in afganistan is fighting the taliban.

taliban is not fighting for afgan nationalism. it is fighting to reimpose the islamic law they had imposed before US came along.

so someone fighting in support of the taliban/fighting against the US/PA as punishment for fighting against the taliban is in effect asking for the sharia to be imposed again, in afganistan.

since the TTP has already fought to impose sharia in swat i see it as improbable that it has given up that demand now.

i dont inend to insult your intelligence but, its dufficult to believe that:
the TTP completely gave up its demand for sharia.
the TTP garnered so much support without alluding to islam and imposition of sharia.

 

[Bhaarat]

TTP says it is fighting for Sharia(and as an extension for Islam). TTP alleges that PA is fighting against the TTP(and as an extension Islam) at the behest of US. Thus, TTP concludes that PA is an american stooge fighting against Islam. This view is increasingly being accepted even within the soldiers of PA who are questioning what is wrong with TTP's fight for Sharia(and as an extension Islam) after all Pakistan was formed for muslim to live in an Islamic environment. Kiyani's recent remark about Islam being an integral part of Pakistan is directed partly at his soldiers as well. Its a reassurance in this critical period when soldiers are losing their belief in the present war.

We have to remember that PA's soldiers have always fought against the kafirs of India only. Generally(but particularly from the time of Zia), PA motivates its soldiers through religion. So, for an average soldier of PA, religion occupies an exalted status(more than an ordinary Pakistani). In this context, soldiers of PA are especially vulnerable to TTP's accusations against PA.

 

[Bhaarat]

right now the GoP has to at least act like it is acting against the islamic millitants and terrorists. if the TTP takes over it will openly support them. that will create more problems for inida. so the TTP is not as big an asset as you claim.

You are not taking into consideration the rest of the world and their reactions and fears etc. The west's biggest fear is nukes in islamic terrorist hands. If TTP takes over Pakistan, this fear will come true, so the moment the threat of TTP taking over Pakistan seems realistic, west led by US will start its efforst to de-nuke Pakistan. Wouldnt this be to India's advantage?

Also, like you said GoP has to atleas act like it is acting against the militants, so the world cannot outrightly criminalize GoP(particularly with a democratic face) where as if TTP takes over, the world would unabashedly call for action against all militants of Pakistan that would mean the world would by sympathetic to India's action(if any) against Pakistan.

 

[seekers]

US. and India is spreading a new demand and propaganda against Pakistan at a time when PA has pushed to touch the TTP on the wall of Afghanistan.
Now this is US. turn to handle the TTP and TTA in Afghanistan.US army did, int do even in 8 years which PA has done in months.
PA. quick successful operation is unexpected for US. and India also.
US is still looking for "do more" even do itself nothing in 8 years even spend Multi billions dollars.
All new US statements are part of "khisyani billi khamba nochay"

 

[Moorkh]

You are not taking into consideration the rest of the world and their reactions and fears etc. The west's biggest fear is nukes in islamic terrorist hands. If TTP takes over Pakistan, this fear will come true, so the moment the threat of TTP taking over Pakistan seems realistic, west led by US will start its efforst to de-nuke Pakistan. Wouldnt this be to India's advantage?

Also, like you said GoP has to atleas act like it is acting against the militants, so the world cannot outrightly criminalize GoP(particularly with a democratic face) where as if TTP takes over, the world would unabashedly call for action against all militants of Pakistan that would mean the world would by sympathetic to India's action(if any) against Pakistan.

if the US and rest of the world tries to denuclearise pakistan, it will be bad news. if it happens it will turn into a use em or lose em condition for them. the GoP and the people of pakistan have invested a lot into those nukes. if someone tries to take them away, what do you think they will do?

they will launch all of them at various targets.

also there was a saying

"karodon dikhane ke liye lakhon to hone chahiye"

when the GoP acts like it is acting against the terrorists in earnest, it has to act against them to an extent.

when the TTP acts openly to support them, there is not much the rest of the world can do.

the PA is not a pushover like the iraqi army of the taliban forces were. so u cant simply attack like in iraq to stop them from acting.

sanctions wont work either. they will make life difficult for the pakistanis but then they will blame the rest of the world for making life difficult for them and will hit back in one of the only 2 ways possible. either a proper war which will end up in a nuclear exchange. or through more terrorism.

so supporting the TTP beyond the point where they become more than irritating sideshows is a bad idea for india