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Morocco’s Message: Beware Iran’s African Inroads

Twelver doctrine was fully developed by the mid of the 13th century, long before the Safavid takeover of Iran. You can say Eleventh Imam died without a son, Shias disagree. There is no way to prove either of the assertions true. No point in discussing that.

I disagree, there was a framework to work with before 15th century, but it developed around that time in Iran. I also disagree about the 12th Imam, there is a way you can prove he had no son using Shia sources. But, in meantime we can agree to disagree.

Wahhabbis are a distinct Islamic sect, no matter how much they deny it. The point is, there is no single sect of Islam that flourished without state patronage at some point in time. I believe all scholars hired/patronized by the state at any point in our history, be it Hanafi scholars, or Mulla Baqir Majlisi, Abdul Wahhab Najadi, or Sheikh Ahmed Sirhindi, should be discredited. And 90% of our differences will vanish

Again, this is your belief, but it is most certainly no more than a movement. Using their own ijtihaad when it came to political decisions, but overall school of thought and religious philosophy is not different than what they suscribe to(1 of 4 school of thoughts within Sunni Islam).

As for scholars, they were important in studying Islam and doing their own ijtihaad. Although I do believe(if that's what you're saying), focus on Allah(SWT) and Prophet Mohammed's way is sufficient and best puritarian way for us.

After years of study, consideration and debates, I have concluded that Book of Allah is enough for us and all secondary sources deserve much less importance than what they are given

I disagree with this too, Book of Allah establishes the core and non-core beliefs and principles, but secondary sources allow us to learn how to follow the right path via our best example, Prophet Mohammed, who taught very valuable things that bring us closer to Allah. I myself learned about from him growing up as a teenager and young adult, although core belief and curiousty about Allah came before that. And worship/obedience/curiousty of Allah is what is in our fitrah and what we emphasize more than anything else since He is our Creator, that interacted with us, and taught us, and even rebuked his own Prophet's in some cases. And we should appreciate it and hopefully attain his mercy. Here I will end conversation on my part, you are free to add any closing thoughts if you'd wish.
 
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I disagree, there was a framework to work with before 15th century, but it developed around that time in Iran. I also disagree about the 12th Imam, there is a way you can prove he had no son using Shia sources. But, in meantime we can agree to disagree.

You, ofcourse, are free to disagree. But anyone who has actually read what those early twelver scholars have written will easily understand my point. As for proving from Shia sources that there was no twelfth Imam, Shias claim to prove their entire religion through authentic Sunni texts. Such claims carry no weight, i believe
Again, this is your belief, but it is most certainly no more than a movement. Using their own ijtihaad when it came to political decisions, but overall school of thought and religious philosophy is not different than what they suscribe to(1 of 4 school of thoughts within Sunni Islam).

As for scholars, they were important in studying Islam and doing their own ijtihaad. Although I do believe(if that's what you're saying), focus on Allah(SWT) and Prophet Mohammed's way is sufficient and best puritarian way for us.

Not "my" belief. That's what the entire non-Wahhabi religious establishment in the sub-continent and beyond maintains
I disagree with this too, Book of Allah establishes the core and non-core beliefs and principles, but secondary sources allow us to learn how to follow the right path via our best example, Prophet Mohammed, who taught very valuable things that bring us closer to Allah. I myself learned about from him growing up as a teenager and young adult, although core belief and curiousty about Allah came before that. And worship/obedience/curiousty of Allah is what is in our fitrah and what we emphasize more than anything else since He is our Creator, that interacted with us, and taught us, and even rebuked his own Prophet's in some cases. And we should appreciate it and hopefully attain his mercy. Here I will end conversation on my part, you are free to add any closing thoughts if you'd wish.

Here, we may agree to disagree. For me Book of Allah is enough. The secondary sources are man-written and full of contradictions
 
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I told you there is no official Twelver sect before Safavid takeover(school of thought known as twelver Shiasm did not fully develop until than) of Iran in the 15th century. Ismaili Shia's did not and do not believe in 12 imam's concept. Nor do the Zaydi Shia's. Ismaili's believe in 6, while Zaydi's believe in 5. Twelver beliefs were not mainstream, and Shia's had dozens of sects and different interpretation/approach to imamate concept:

Twelver Shiaism precedes the Safavid dynasty by many centuries. You would gain in acquainting yourself with its history using valid documentation and studying it in a non-selective manner.

Twelver Shia school of thought did not come into play until in Safavid takeover of Iran:

I wonder if you really paid attention to the content of the source you linked to.

Because 'finding a home' somewhere doesn't equal 'being born' there. On the contrary, it means having existed before, but settling in that particular location at some point in time.

Moreover, in the very same Encyclopedia Britannica article you quoted, it clearly says:

Following the 12th imam’s occultation, the Twelver Shiʿah enjoyed a measure of tolerance during the Būyid period (945–1055) in what is now Iran and in Baghdad.


^So we have it black on white once more: Twelver Shia during the Buyid era 945-1055 AD, in other words half a millennium before the establishment of the Safavid dynasty.

Where? Which ones? Be specific. A few philosophers here and there?

There were Twelver Shia communities in south Lebanon (Jebel Amel), eastern Arabia, southern Iraq as well as in Iran. Quite similar geography as today in fact.

Show us these theologians and what they wrote about.

I mentioned two important cases in my previous post and even provided links to their Wikipedia entries...!

Show us actual theologians not born in Iran or books attributed to Iranians.

You claimed modern day Twelver Shia Islam "began with the Safavid dynasty in Iran" (your exact words in post #46), upon which I submitted the names of two of the classical Twelver Shia theologians who happened to have lived in the 10th and 13th centuries respectively - ie some 600 and some 300 years prior to the establishment of the Safavid dynasty. Which shows how much older Twelver Shiaism really is.

And not oh they paid off Lebanese scholars (whom identities we don't even know) to come teach Twelver concepts in Iran

I provided several academic sources in which multiple Lebanese Ithna 'Asharia clerics are cited by name. You can read them.

As an example, in the previously cited Encyclopedia Iranica article there's a passage in which 9 of the most prominent ones are mentioned:

By the early 16th century, Jabal ʿĀmel became the foremost center for Shiʿite learning and an accrediting institution, producing and influencing hundreds of theologians who lived or settled in Syria, Mecca, Iraq, Persia, and India. Among the most prominent of these ulama were ʿAli b. ʿAbd-al-ʿĀli Karaki (d. 1534), Ḥosayn b. ʿAbd-al-Ṣamad (d. 1576), Ḥosayn Mojtahed (d. 1592), Bahāʾ-al-Din ʿĀmeli (q.v., d. 1621 or 1622), known as Shaikh Bahāʾi, Mir Moḥammad-Bāqer b. Šams-al-Din Moḥammad Ḥosayni Astarābādi, known as Mir(-e) Dāmād (d. between 1631 and 1632, see DĀMĀD), Aḥmad b. Zayn-al-ʿĀbedin (d. between 1644 and 1650; see Aḥmad ʿAlawi), Loṭf-Allāh Maysi (d. 1622-23), ʿAli b. Moḥammad b. Ḥasan b. Zayn-al-Din ʿĀmeli (d. 1691), and Moḥammad b. Ḥasan Ḥorr ʿĀmeli (d. 1693; see representative works in bibliography). Except for ʿAli b. Moḥammad b. Ḥasan b. Zayn-al-Din, all of the above theologians enjoyed close ties with the Safavid court, occupied the highest religious offices in Persia, and created the principal tools for the consolidation of Safavid rule.

The reality is Twelver Shiasm is a sect of Shia Islam that broke off from original Shia Islamic sects and its school of thought only thrived in Iran.

You first claimed that Twelver Shiaism came into being under the Safavids, and this isn't factual, as I have now amply demonstrated.

Now you're postulating it only thrived in Iran... Define thriving. Yes, Iran is the first large country where Twelver Shiaism came to be followed by the majority of the population and where it was instituted as the state religion. But this said, Twelver Shia communities have also existed elsewhere, and those communities are at least as old as their Iranian counterpart and have maintained themselves continuously to this day.

As for Twelver Shiaism breaking off from other currents of Shia Islam, this kind of assertion requires to be substantiated with concrete historical arguments and references.

The other Shia's stopped well before that.

No, not all other Shias. Mustali and Nizari Ismailis for instance continued way beyond that.

Qasemi Nizaris recognize no less than 49 imams, Momeni Nizaris 40. As for the Mustali Ismailis, their Tayyebi branch recognizes 20 and their extinct Hafezi branch 26 imams.

Among Ismailis, only the Seveners (which are extinct today) stopped at the 7th Imam.

Twelver Imamate concept holds no ground in Islamic theology because it was not meant to in the first place.

This doesn't change the fact that Twelver Shia Islam was practiced way more than half a millennium prior to the Safavids.

Yep, all Iranians know him because he's Iranian. What are you trying to hide his background for? He's Iranian, get over it.

Many know him from past forum activities. He is not Iranian but a white fellow from New Zealand with a keen interest in military and geopolitical affairs, as well as a socialist supportive of Iran for its anti-imperialist stance.

Also why did you edit out response to Fokinas saying you are an Iranian with Pakistani roots? Didn't you tell us you were a Pakistani born and raised in Iran? Which one is it?

I'm not really here to discuss personal biographies, but there's no contradiction between the two propositions you evoke: being raised somewhere can make you a citizen / national of that country.
 
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Interesting personal tidbit about Morocco and their relationship with shias. Wife and I looked into adopting from Morocco and one of their requirements was that the adopting family has to be sunni Muslim.
Lol 😂

Sometimes I think we are bad but than I see something like this

I am realizing we are not totally bad, we just have a gun culture...
 
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This is a native Swede, Salar? :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

New Zealander, not Swede. I fail to see how those quotes disprove the fact. Go see on Twitter how many non-Iranian analysts are following Iran's military industry very closely.

I was responding to a post in post #36, then Salar guy came to start theological discussion with me.

I countered the notion that Twelver Shia Islam was born under the Safavid dynasty in the 16th century, which is a historic type of objection and not a theological one.

Twelver Shiasm initial thought came after 11th Imam passed away while having no son.

Even if this were the case, the referenced event took place in the late 9th century AD, about 700 years prior to the Safavids.

I disagree, there was a framework to work with before 15th century, but it developed around that time in Iran.

In order to formulate opinions on the subject, one needs to know at least who the early historic theologians of Twelver Shia Islam were, during which period of time they lived, what works they composed and what the status of these works in contemporary Twelver Shia learning is. If one doesn't make this effort, one's opinion will not be an informed one and hence will not weigh so much.
 
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Iran has a torrid history much to be forgotten and forgiven when it comes to Africa.

From slave trade to proxy warfare, Iran has a mountain to climb in terms of soft power in the continent emerging from darkness.
 
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Back on topic with a neat flashback: did you know that Islamic Iran, true to its lofty foreign policy orientation governed by immutable principles, was one of the main supporters of the South African people's struggle against apartheid? In the same manner as the Islamic Republic has systematically rejected the zionist occupation regime in Palestine, it also opposed apartheid rule in South Africa.

Iran severed all ties with the apartheid regime after the victory of the 1979 Islamic Revolution led by Imam Khomeini. It interrupted the profitable, very extensive business relationship with Pretoria established by the toppled regime of the shah. In particular, Iran forwent oil exports to South Africa ie it renounced so-called national interest in order to conform to Islamic ethics of justice.

Movements backed by Iran included the ANC (African National Congress), the Communist Party of South Africa and the Pan Africanist Congress of Azania (PAC). Moreover, Islamic Iran's role was one of the main factors behind the increased involvement of the Muslim Umma and of South African (Sunni) Muslims in the struggle against apartheid.

Let us revisit this remarkable feat achieved by revolutionary Iran through a few documents.

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Mandela Arrives In Tehran, Lays Wreath At Khomeini Shrine

July 21, 1992

NICOSIA, Cyprus (AP) _ Nelson Mandela placed a wreath at Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini’s shrine on Tuesday in acknowledgment of Iran’s steadfast stand against apartheid, Tehran radio reported.

Iran, which often refers to itself as the defender of the world’s oppressed people, has been among the most outspoken Middle Eastern countries in condemning apartheid. It has vowed not to establish ties with South Africa until apartheid has been completely dismantled.

″We are here to thank the Iranian government and nation for their support in the black people’s struggle against apartheid,″ the radio quoted Mandela as saying after arriving in Tehran Tuesday. The report was monitored in Nicosia.

The Islamic Republic News Agency, also monitored in Cyprus, said that during his visit Mandela will confer with President Hashemi Rafsanjani, Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati and Minister of Culture and Islamic Guidance Ali Larijani.

https://apnews.com/ad81cee784fd0130a2aaafa8aace9997

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South Africa and Iran in the Apartheid Era
H.E. Chehabi
Pages 687-709 | Published online: 30 Jun 2016

Abstract

This article analyses the multifaceted relations between apartheid-era South Africa and Iran. In 1942, the exile of Iran’s ex-Shah in Johannesburg put South Africa on the map of Iran’s rulers. In the 1970s, close economic and military ties were established between the two states, based on economic complementarities and shared concern with the threat of communism and Soviet penetration into the Indian Ocean. By 1978, Iran provided over 90 per cent of South Africa’s oil. These ties did not prevent the Iranians from denouncing apartheid or bending its rules when in South Africa. The Islamic revolution of 1979 caused a break in formal relations. It affected South Africa in two ways: oil imports were disrupted, and it contributed to the growing militancy of South African Muslims in the anti-apartheid struggle. Iran then made financial contributions to the ANC, resulting in a friendly resumption of ties after the end of apartheid. The article uses extensive interviews with South African and Iranian diplomats who served in both countries.

H.E. Chehabi, "South Africa and Iran in the Apartheid Era", Journal of Southern African Studies, Volume 42, 2016 - Issue 4

https://doi.org/10.1080/03057070.2016.1201330

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Apr 2016

Zuma: Iran occupies a special place in our struggle against apartheid

Tehran - President Jacob Zuma praised Iran's 1979 revolution Sunday at the start of a three-day state visit which he said could "dramatically expand trade" with the Islamic republic.

The overthrow of a US-backed Shah was a source of encouragement as black South Africans fought against apartheid, Zuma said at a press conference with President Hassan Rouhani.

With international sanctions against Iran now lifted under its nuclear deal with world powers business activity is likely to increase.

"Iran occupies a special place in our struggle against apartheid," Zuma said, noting how Tehran cut ties with South Africa when it was under white rule, only resuming relations in 1994 after Nelson Mandela was elected as its first black president.

Mandela, who served one term before voluntarily standing down in 1999, visited Tehran before his election and soon after leaving office.

"South Africans were inspired by the 1979 revolution, which showed that emancipation is possible, whatever the odds," said Zuma, the first serving South African president to visit since.

Having signed eight cooperation agreements ranging from energy development to business insurance, Zuma said the nuclear deal was an opportunity to deepen commercial links.

"The challenge is to dramatically expand trade volumes," he added.

Rouhani, whose government in January implemented last summer's nuclear deal with Britain, China, France, Russia and the United States plus Germany, paid tribute to Mandela, who died aged 95 in 2013.

"Let us cherish the memory of the late Nelson Mandela," after whom a street is named in Tehran, Rouhani said. "He is so very much revered by both the South African and the Iranian people."

( ... )

https://www.news24.com/News24/zuma-...ce-in-our-struggle-against-apartheid-20160424

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Nelson Mandela, Iran, and the critique of American hegemony

TEHRAN (FNA)- As the world commemorates Nelson Mandela, it is unfortunate that so much of the public discussion is dominated by the pious bloviating of politicians whose own careers seem not just unspeakably trivial compared to Mandela’s, but run directly against so much of what Mandela worked so hard to accomplish in his life. We think it is better to remember Mandela’s own words and deeds. In particular, we want to recall Mandela’s ties to the Islamic Republic of Iran, and his clear criticism of what he saw as America’s drive to dominate the Middle East and the Muslim world.

As Cyrus Safdari points out, everyone should remember that “Islamic Iran was strongly supporting the freedom movement (in South Africa), the US sided with the S. African apartheid regime and Reagan in particular was opposed to the sanctions on that government. Israel too was a close cooperator with the racist regime there, and may have even jointly developed a nuclear weapon with South Africa. Israel was the most significant arms supplier to that regime throughout the 1980s and served as a lifeline for the apartheid government during a period when Pretoria faced growing international condemnation and heightened domestic unrest.”

So it is hardly surprising that in 1992—two years after his release from prison and two years before his election to South Africa’s presidency, during one of the most intense and difficult phases in the negotiations and political struggle to end apartheid in his own country—Mandela visited the Islamic Republic of Iran. Upon his arrival in Tehran, Mandela said, “We are here to thank the Iranian government and nation for their support in the black people’s struggle against apartheid.” And watch the short video embedded above, see here , in which Mandela meets Supreme Leader Ayatollah Seyyed Ali Khamenei, addressing Khamenei as “my leader.” Mandela also laid a wreath at Imam Khomeini’s tomb.

Mandela visited Iran again as President of South Africa. Throughout his presidency, he was publicly dismissive of efforts—including those by American presidents—to persuade him to turn away from the Islamic Republic. As he said of the United States in 1997, “How can they have the arrogance to dictate to us who our friends should be?” And after he left office in 1999, he was utterly clear in his critique of the increasingly hegemonic orientation of America’s post-9/11 policy in the Middle East.

In this spirit, Mandela spoke to Newsweek in 2002 about the George W. Bush administration’s accelerating drive to invade Iraq:“We must understand the seriousness of this situation. The United States has made serious mistakes in the conduct of its foreign affairs, which have had unfortunate repercussions long after the decisions were taken.

Unqualified support of the Shah of Iran led directly to the Islamic revolution of 1979. Then the United States chose to arm and finance the (Islamic) mujahedin in Afghanistan instead of supporting and encouraging the moderate wing of the government of Afghanistan. That is what led to the Taliban in Afghanistan. But the most catastrophic action of the United States was to sabotage the decision that was painstakingly stitched together by the United Nations regarding the withdrawal of the Soviet Union from Afghanistan.

If you look at those matters, you will come to the conclusion that the attitude of the United States of America is a threat to world peace. Because what (America) is saying is that if you are afraid of a veto in the Security Council, you can go outside and take action and violate the sovereignty of other countries. That is the message they are sending to the world.

That must be condemned in the strongest terms…There is no doubt that the United States now feels that they are the only superpower in the world and they can do what they like.”

Regarding the Bush administration’s fraudulent “case” about Saddam Hossein’s non-existent weapons of mass destruction, Mandela said that there was “no evidence whatsoever of (development of weapons of) mass destruction. Neither Bush nor (British Prime Minister) Tony Blair has provided any evidence that such weapons exist. But what we know is that Israel has weapons of mass destruction. Nobody talks about that. Why should there be one standard for one country, especially because it is black, and another one for another country, Israel, that is white.”

We know from our own experience in the George W. Bush administration that the Bush White House was concerned about Mandela’s criticisms—for he was one of the few international voices of unquestioned moral stature that the United States couldn’t manage to silence during the run-up to America’s illegal invasion of Iraq. Such concern undoubtedly prompted our boss at the time, then-national security adviser Condoleeza Rice, to take a phone call from Mandela in which he offered basic political and moral correction on other aspects of American Middle East policy. Rice could not have been more pleasant during her conversation with Mandela—but then, of course, she and her colleagues went ahead and did exactly as they had planned.

In the end, the Bush White House needn’t really have been concerned about Mandela’s outspoken criticisms of US policy. Too few people in post-9/11 America were willing to be galvanized into action to demand a different course—not even by an international icon whose own dedication to doing the right thing as he saw it was unsurpassed. But Mandela’s words were absolutely on the mark.

It’s nice that, in the wake of Mandela’s death, President Obama and British Prime Minister David Cameron have publicly praised his life. But we wish that they would reflect seriously on Mandela’s critique of Western policy—for it might compel them to reorient that policy, especially toward the Islamic Republic of Iran, in a fundamentally different direction.


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Iran-South Africa Relations: Past Trends, Future Prospects

Ahmad Bakhshi


Ahmad Bakhshi, "Iran-South Africa Relations: Past Trends, Future Prospects", Iranian Review of Foreign Affairs, Vol. 5, No. 2, Summer 2014, pp. 83-108

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This last paper is highly informative, as it provides a great overview of Iran-South Africa relations before and after the 1979 Islamic Revolution.

If interested, make sure to read section II of the paper, from pages 91 to 100.

Selected points of interest taken from the paper (my comments and some corrections of typographical errors between square brackets):

* In 1977-1978, Iran under the Pahlavi monarchy had become the second largest trade partner of apartheid South Africa after Isra"el".

* "Cutting ties with South Africa was amongst the plans of revolutionary Iranians even before the revolution [just like opposition to zionist occupation]. For instance, Imam Khomeini declared in [Neauphle le Château], regarding the [sale of] oil to South Africa and Israel, that we will not sell oil to the racists and enemies to humanity (Collection of works: 1993, 140 and 340). He further stated that “we cannot establish relations with South Africa unless it changes its behaviour” (Collection of works: 378). ( ... ) After the revolution, according to the article 10 of the executive bylaw of the Export and Import Rules “all forms of trade interactions, direct and indirect, with South Africa and the occupier regime of Qods were banned”."

* "Along with supporting the anti-apartheid campaigns of the people of South Africa, the Islamic Republic of Iran closed South Africa’s political representation in Iran and instead allowed the South West Africa People's Organization (SWAPO) open an office in Tehran [just as the Isra"el"i diplomatic representation was replaced by a Palestinian one in 1979]. Selling oil to South Africa was ceased and Iranian political representations in the frontier countries were established. The zenith of Iran’s support to the frontier countries was participation of Iran’s president of the time, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, in the non-aligned movement meeting in Zimbabwe and his insistence on the issues of South Africa."

* "Iran is among the first countries that started its relations with post-apartheid South Africa."

* "The United States has been critical towards expansion of South Africa’s relations with Iran; but this has not driven South Africa to reverse relations with Iran. The South African leaders have reacted to the U.S. requests for stopping cooperation with Iran by expressing their desire to choose their friends based on their own national interests (Broderik, 2001: 88 & 152). Some experts believe that such independent South African position vis a vis U.S. pressures is a response to the support the Africa National Congress has received from Iran in the course of its battles with the apartheid regime (Spence, 1998; 167). Iran supported the National Congress Party and the Communist Party of South Africa during apartheid and therefore when Mandela took office he declared that South Africa will not apply restrictions to its relations with friends who were supportive of freedom seeking efforts in this country in the dark days of history."

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@925boy
 
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