Morocco’s Message: Beware Iran’s African Inroads

[SalarHaqq]

No it isn't, Twelver Sect began with Safavid dynasty in Iran.

No. As I mentioned above, in order to construct their state the Safavids brought over Twelver Shia clerics from Lebanon and Iraq, while promoting others to the position of religious authority.

We can read in Wikipedia for instance:

Ismail [founder of the Safavid dynasty] imported a new Shia Ulama corps from traditional Shiite centers of the Arabic speaking lands, largely from Jabal Amil (of Southern Lebanon), Mount Lebanon, Syria, Eastern Arabia and Southern Iraq in order to create a state clergy.[42][43][44][45] Ismail offered them land and money in return for loyalty. These scholars taught the doctrine of Twelver Shiism and made it accessible to the population

Here's an academic article about the migration of Twelver Shia scholars from Lebanon's Jabal 'Amel to Iran during the early Safavid period:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/5460

Devin J. Stewart, "Notes on the Migration of ʿĀmilī Scholars to Safavid Iran", Journal of Near Eastern Studies, Vol. 55, No. 2, April 1996.

Here's another one:

Welcome to Encyclopaedia Iranica

The Encyclopaedia Iranica is a comprehensive research tool dedicated to the study of Iranian civilization in the Middle East, the Caucasus, Central Asia, and the Indian subcontinent

www.iranicaonline.org

Rula Abisaab, "Jabal ʿĀmel", Encyclopaedia Iranica, XIV/3, pp. 305-309

Quoting from this source:

JABAL ʿĀMEL, SHIʿITE ULAMA OF, in the Safavid Period. Two decades after the establishment of the Safavid state in Persia in 1501, the Safavid monarchs sought prominent clerics who would strengthen their rule by promoting a standard urban system of Shiʿite worship and lend them political legitimacy against their Sunnite Ottoman foes ( ... ) Meanwhile, several Arab theologians from Jabal ʿĀmel in southern Lebanon (see also SHIʿITES IN LEBANON), along with their families, were emigrating from Ottoman Syria to Iraq, Mecca, India, and Persia. A number of historical factors motivated this emigration ( ... ) The Safavids, in contrast, found the ʿĀmelis’ use of ejtehād helpful in developing new theological positions that supported dynastic authority

In other terms, some of the clerics who contributed to the establishment of Shia Islam as a state religion in Safavid Iran came from south Lebanon.

Core beliefs and non-core beliefs of Twelver sect differ from original and historical Shia sects. Ismaili and Zaydi Shia sects differ in core and non-core beliefs and use their own unique ahadeeth collections. You can argue Safavid dyansty in Iran tried to declare official Twelver sect and unite numerous Shia sects under this umbrella(this did not eliminate different schools of thought within Shia Islam), but that still makes it modern day sect and school of thought.

Other than Ismaili and Zaydi branches, Twelver Shia Islam used to be practiced in places such as Iran itself, Lebanon, Iraq, Arabia etc long before the 16th century.

Do you realize that some of the most important theologians of Twelver Shia Islam, whose works are seen as major references by Twelver Shias, lived centuries before the creation of the Safavid dynasty?

For instance, 10th century sheikh Al-Mufid:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shaykh_Al-Mufid

Or 13th century sheikh Tusi, founder of Twelver Shia ijtihad:

Nasir al-Din al-Tusi - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sineva's not Iranian? Since when?

Since birth. Many here have known him for a long time.

There are no Indian Hindu's posting pro-Iranian regime talking points all over the forum. Get real and stop being dense.

All over the forum? The mentioned user hardly ever posts. But yes, of course there are non-Iranians and non-Muslims with favorable views of Iran.

 

[Falcon29]

No. As I mentioned above, in order to construct their state the Safavids brought over Twelver Shia clerics from Lebanon and Iraq, while promoting others to the position of religious authority.

I told you there is no official Twelver sect before Safavid takeover(school of thought known as twelver Shiasm did not fully develop until than) of Iran in the 15th century. Ismaili Shia's did not and do not believe in 12 imam's concept. Nor do the Zaydi Shia's. Ismaili's believe in 6, while Zaydi's believe in 5. Twelver beliefs were not mainstream, and Shia's had dozens of sects and different interpretation/approach to imamate concept:

However, different groups understand the imamate to have been passed on through different individuals among these descendants. By the early 9th century, some forty different Shiʿi groups were said to have come into being. Today, however, there are three main Shiʿi groups and a few smaller ones. At present about 10 to 15 percent of the world's 1 billion Muslims are Shiʿites.

Shi`i Islam

"Shi`i Islam" published on by null.

www.oxfordbibliographies.com

Twelver Shia school of thought did not come into play until in Safavid takeover of Iran:

Only in Iran did the faith finally find a home. There, except for a brief hiatus in the mid-18th century, Twelver Shiʿism has been the established faith since 1501, when Ismāʿīl I, the first Ṣafavid shah, captured Tabrīz and declared Twelver Shiʿism to be the official religion of his new realm.

Twelver Shi’ah | Meaning, History, & Beliefs

Twelver Shi’ah, the largest of the three groups of Shi’ah extant today. They believe that, after the death of Muhammad, the lineage of Ali was ordained to take over leadership of the Muslim community. They are unique among the Shi’ah in the belief that the 12th leader of Ali’s lineage continues...

www.britannica.com

Other than Ismaili and Zaydi branches, Twelver Shia Islam used to be practiced in places such as Iran itself, Lebanon, Iraq, Arabia etc long before the 16th century.

Where? Which ones? Be specific. A few philosophers here and there?

Do you realize that some of the most important theologians of Twelver Shia Islam, whose works are seen as major references by Twelver Shias, lived centuries before the creation of the Safavid dynasty?

Show us these theologians and what they wrote about. Show us actual theologians not born in Iran or books attributed to Iranians. And not oh they paid off Lebanese scholars (whom identities we don't even know) to come teach Twelver concepts in Iran. The reality is Twelver Shiasm is a sect of Shia Islam that broke off from original Shia Islamic sects and its school of thought only thrived in Iran. And the only reason they stopped at 12 was because the 11th had no son, hence no successor. Thus, they had to make up a story about his son being the Mahdi, and how he has to go into occultation for thousands of years. The other Shia's stopped well before that. Twelver Imamate concept holds no ground in Islamic theology because it was not meant to in the first place.

Since birth. Many here have known him for a long time.

Yep, all Iranians know him because he's Iranian. What are you trying to hide his background for? He's Iranian, get over it.

Also why did you edit out response to Fokinas saying you are an Iranian with Pakistani roots? Didn't you tell us you were a Pakistani born and raised in Iran? Which one is it?

 

[Falcon29]

Are you sure? I think you are a bit confused.

It's not hard to recognize Iranian's with inferiority complex or delusions of grandeur(having foreign flags while praising Iran 24/7 to make Iran seem more great).

 

[Foinikas]

It's not hard to recognize Iranian's with inferiority complex or delusions of grandeur(having foreign flags while praising Iran 24/7 to make Iran seem more great).

Have you seen me praising Iran here? And not 24/7,just once.

 

[Falcon29]

Have you seen me praising Iran here? And not 24/7,just once.

I'm talking about the guys Salar is mentioning. Hilarious how he is trying to pass Sineva as a native Swede. His whole post history is tied to Iran, Iranian weapons, culture, etc.... Salar has mental issues, it's not normal to have such extreme nationalism to point where you deny your compatriots own nationalies.

 

[Falcon29]

This is a native Swede, Salar?

Still not the guided weapons systems upgrade that I imagine some of us here [myself especially] were hoping to see,altho it is clearly an improvement over the older existing unguided rocket launchers that required the entire craft to be pointed at the target,whereas this one allows the launcher to be trained over what appears to be most of the frontal arc of the craft,which allows it to target the enemy from different angles and approaches.It also appears to be stabilized and to incorporate modern optronic systems to improve targeting.However this all comes at the expense of a reduced weapons payload.......
Personally I think that this is where something like the Ghaem 114,with its multiple seeker options,might`ve been a better choice,or perhaps a laser guidance upgrade for the older larger caliber artillery rockets.
All in all tho`,for small patrol craft like these,this is probably about the best mix of firepower and technology that you`re going to get that comes at a pretty cheap price,after all most of the cost is in the mount which is reusable,and can be upgraded over time,rather than the weapons themselves,which are just cheap unguided rockets.

Forget it,the indians made their choice over a decade ago,and that choice was hindu fascism.....sorry..."nationalism"...and us vassalage.
In real terms for iran it means that rather than having to deal with a non-aligned india and a us aligned pakistan,iran now has to deal with 2 us/western vassal nations.If anything this should actually make it a lot easier for iran to tread a path between the 2 of them,as now neither of them have anything to offer iran politically or economically.....even if they wanted to,neither can they take advantage of anything that iran could offer them politically or economically....even if they wanted to.

My thoughts exactly....
They would be an excellent,and potent,addition to irans attack helo fleet.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Twelver Shia school of thought did not come into play until in Safavid takeover of Iran:
Show us these theologians and what they wrote about. Show us actual theologians not born in Iran or books attributed to Iranians. And not oh they paid off Lebanese scholars (whom identities we don't even know) to come teach Twelver concepts in Iran.

Ever heard about Sharif al Murtaza, Sheikh Razi, Sheikh Mufeed, Shaikh Tusi etc?

The reality is Twelver Shiasm is a sect of Shia Islam that broke off from original Shia Islamic sects

All Islamic sects that exist today, they have broken off/born out of other sects. The earliest muslims had no sects. And of all the contemporary sects, Shiites are the oldest ones ... What is your point?

And the only reason they stopped at 12 was because the 11th had no son, hence no successor

Well, 12 leaders hadith is not unique to twelvers. It's a Sahih Hadith as per Sunni primary sources. It's interpretations vary though

 

[Foinikas]

I'm talking about the guys Salar is mentioning. Hilarious how he is trying to pass Sineva as a native Swede. His whole post history is tied to Iran, Iranian weapons, culture, etc.... Salar has mental issues, it's not normal to have such extreme nationalism to point where you deny your compatriots own nationalies.

W ent mn flstn?

 

[Falcon29]

Ever heard about Sharif al Murtaza, Sheikh Razi, Sheikh Mufeed, Shaikh Tusi etc?

Yes, why? My point still stands. Twelver Shia school of thought did not fully develop until and except in Iran, becoming mainstream with Safavid takeover of Iran. Twelver Shia sect itself is offshoot of original sects. Which accept different numbers of Imam's and in some cases different Imam's. Twelver Shiasm initial thought came after 11th Imam passed away while having no son. So a fake theory was created and attributed to him, suggesting his son is Al-Mahdi and due to come out of occultation or ghaybaah years later. He was supposed to come much earlier, and was expected only few decades later but it never happened. The theory did not gain traction or become mainstream, nor develop into school of thought among dominant shia sects of time until later in Iran.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Yes, why? My point still stands. Twelver Shia school of thought did not fully develop until and except in Iran, becoming mainstream with Safavid takeover of Iran. Twelver Shia sect itself is offshoot of original sects. Which accept different numbers of Imam's and in some cases different Imam's. Twelver Shiasm initial thought came after 11th Imam passed away while having no son. So a fake theory was created and attributed to him, suggesting his son is Al-Mahdi and due to come out of occultation or ghaybaah years later. He was supposed to come much earlier, and was expected only few decades later but it never happened. The theory did not gain traction or become mainstream, nor develop into school of thought among dominant shia sects of time until later in Iran.

Twelver theology was fully developed long before the Safvid takeover of Iran.. It only rose to power and became mainstream when Safvids officially adopted it... But again that isn't something unique to twelvers. Hanafi school of jurisprudence would never be the largest school of Islamic jurisprudence had the Abbasids not patronized it. In Modern world, Wahhabism would have never flourished without the patronage and all out support by the House of Saud ..

Why single out twelvers? Either denounce all scholars related to the government of the time or accept the reality that all of us follow, directly or indirectly, what had been patronized by rulers at some point in time, in some part of the Islamic world

 

[Falcon29]

All Islamic sects that exist today, they have broken off/born out of other sects. The earliest muslims had no sects. And of all the contemporary sects, Shiites are the oldest ones ... What is your point?

Sunni school of thought (original orthodox Islam) is not a sect. It was original Islam which everyone at time of Prophet Mohammed was following. Even the Shia's after his death, were following the same Islam. They had dispute on succession because of personal, religious and cultural(tribal) reasons. Islam core and non-core beliefs were the same and did not change until several centuries later. There were Sunni and Shia offshoots of original Islam.

Well, 12 leaders hadith is not unique to twelvers. It's a Sahih Hadith as per Sunni primary sources. It's interpretations vary though

Yes, interpretations vary, but the hadeeth alone wouldn't justify a large emphasis on a certain belief concept.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Sunni school of thought (original orthodox Islam) is not a sect. It was original Islam which everyone at time of Prophet Mohammed was following. Even the Shia's after his death, were following the same Islam. They had dispute on succession because of personal, religious and cultural(tribal) reasons. Islam core and non-core beliefs were the same and did not change until several centuries later. There were Sunni and Shia offshoots of original Islam.

That my friend is the root of all problems . All sects claim that the version of Islam they follow is the original version and everyone else is misguided

 

[Falcon29]

Twelver theology was fully developed long before the Safvid takeover of Iran.. It only came to power when Safvids officially adopted it... But again that isn't something unique to twelvers. Hanafi school of jurisprudence would never be the largest school of Islamic jurisprudence had the Abbasids not patronized it. In Modern world, Wahhabism would have never flourished without the patronage and all out support by the House of Saud ..

Twelver school of thought was not anywhere near fully developed or mainstream until Safavid takeover of Iran. There were a few beliefs here and there, and books which covered Islamic jurisprudence attributed to certain theologians who subscribed to one Twelver core belief(the 12th hidden imam, because 11th died without a son), but nothing more. Wahabism was a movement, not a sect or school of thought. Those Salafi Saudi's subscribe to Hanbali Sunni school of thought.

That my friend is the root of all problems . All sects claim that the version of Islam they follow is the original version and everyone else is misguided

Problem is people centuries later who fabricated sayings and attributed them to the Prophet or other figures of that time. With unusual and clearly fabricated sayings. Original Islam was never changed, and it is very clearly religion of Tawhid(Oneness of God, he has no partners, does not come on earth in human form, we won't see him until we die), 5 pillars, Final Messenger and Prophet, no intercession except through and by will of God, no favoritism of certain tribe(everyone judged equally by their actions/deed), no mutah, no tattoos, alcohol, drugs, pre-marital sexual relationships and so forth. No seeking help or relief except through and by God.

 

[Falcon29]

Why single out twelvers? Either denounce all scholars related to the government of the time or accept the reality that all of us follow, directly or indirectly, what had been patronized by rulers at some point in time, in some part of the Islamic world

I was responding to a post in post #36, then Salar guy came to start theological discussion with me. As for scholars, you mean scholars of this time? I denounce all scholars who use Islam(any form of it whether Shia or Sunni) to justify un-Islamic rulings or to advance nationalism. For example, the scholars in Iran, Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia that make plenty of fatwas in support of government abuse, or rule, or to praise them as people of God to gain votes, or suddenly accepting mixing of genders, or allowing sale of alcohol to Muslims, etcc.... I've been consistent on that. Religion for me is a search for the truth, and for God, and a real submission to God, and not treating it as cultural byproduct to assume and maintain influence, or to reap social(even for individuals) and political benefits from.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Twelver school of thought was not anywhere near fully developed or mainstream until Safavid takeover of Iran. There were a few beliefs here and there, and books which covered Islamic jurisprudence attributed to certain theologians who subscribed to one Twelver core belief(the 12th hidden imam, because 11th died without a son), but nothing more. Wahabism was a movement, not a sect or school of thought. Those Salafi Saudi's subscribe to Hanbali Sunni school of thought.

Twelver doctrine was fully developed by the mid of the 13th century, long before the Safavid takeover of Iran. You can say Eleventh Imam died without a son, Shias disagree. There is no way to prove either of the assertions true. No point in discussing that.

Wahhabbis are a distinct Islamic sect, no matter how much they deny it. The point is, there is no single sect of Islam that flourished without state patronage at some point in time. I believe all scholars hired/patronized by the state at any point in our history, be it Hanafi scholars, or Mulla Baqir Majlisi, Abdul Wahhab Najadi, or Sheikh Ahmed Sirhindi, should be discredited. And 90% of our differences will vanish

Problem is people centuries later who fabricated sayings and attributed them to the Prophet or other figures of that time. With unusual and clearly fabricated sayings. Original Islam was never changed, and it is very clearly religion of Tawhid(Oneness of God, he has no partners, does not come on earth in human form, we won't see him until we die), 5 pillars, Final Messenger and Prophet, no intercession except through and by will of God, no favoritism of certain tribe(everyone judged equally by their actions/deed), no mutah, no tattoos, alcohol, drugs, pre-marital sexual relationships and so forth. No seeking help or relief except through and by God.

After years of study, consideration and debates, I have concluded that Book of Allah is enough for us and all secondary sources deserve much less importance than what they are given