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Mongol conquest of Europe;A short glimpse

@victor07

I excluded the Mongol's European adventure before and after Ogodei's rule in the original post. That is why I did not mention the several factors led to the fragmentation of this vast empire,especially after the death of Mongke during the Sung campaign. Mongol's expedition had very strange reasons to halt all over the world. For example, their decision to sale Slav war prisoners to the Italian slave merchants were proved to be a strategic blunder when the Mongols were defeated by the Mamluk slaves in the Middle east,just an year after the death of Mongke Khan.

But this chapter needs more details and explanations. And I will post further about this time (after the death of Ogodei in particular),as it's creating a lot of confusions.
 
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@victor07

I excluded the Mongol's European adventure before and after Ogodei's rule in the original post. That is why I did not mention the several factors led to the fragmentation of this vast empire,especially after the death of Mongke during the Sung campaign. Mongol's expedition had a very strange reason to halt. Their decision to sell Slav war prisoners to the Italian slave merchants were proved to be a strategic blunder when the Mongols were defeated by the Mamluk slaves just an year after the death of Mongke Khan.

But this chapter needs more details and explanations. And I will post further about this time (after the death of Ogodei in particular),as it's creating a lot of confusions.

Excellent choice of topic btw.
 
People of north west india also include people from current n-w india,not just areas of pakistan.I do like alauddin for his defense of the subcontinent.But this point that no one else could is patent falsehood.Mongols have been halted at several places.Mamelukes in egypt,samurai and storms in japan,vietnamese in the jungles.And he faced only a faction of the previous mongol juggernaut,not the whole centralized horde that russia,china and the middle east faced under a single leader.
500 yrs really and mostly confined to north of the vindhyas.

Khiljis were Afghans , though some historians argue that they were Turks who had settled in Afghanistan long time ago . Most importantly , they were not treated as Turks by the Turks in Delhi court but as Afghans . (Chaurasia, Radhey Shyam (2002).History of medieval India: from 1000 A.D. to 1707 A.D) . And in present day Pakistan , one of the four provinces is the "Afghana" province . , Khilji are the second-largest Pashtun tribal confederacy found in Afghanistan and Pakistan. In Pakistan , there number exceeds 4 million . .They regularly cross over between Afghanistan and Pakistan often being exempted from customs due to the acceptance of their nomadic traditions by officials from both countries...
So no matter how hard you try , you can not deny that the forefathers of Muslims of present day Pakistan saved the Indians from the Mongols . And the point "when no one else could" can be argued upon . My point is that Indians (here on PDF) always say that the Muslims of North West India did not defend India from foreign invasions , this is a patent falsehood resulting from blind hatred and lack of knowledge of history !!!
 
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Khiljis were Afghans , though some historians argue that they were Turks who had settled in Afghanistan long time ago . Most importantly , they were not treated as Turks by the Turks in Delhi court but as Afghans . (Chaurasia, Radhey Shyam (2002).History of medieval India: from 1000 A.D. to 1707 A.D) . And in present day Pakistan , one of the four provinces is the "Afghana" province . , Khilji are the second-largest Pashtun tribal confederacy found in Afghanistan and Pakistan. In Pakistan , there number exceeds 4 million . .They regularly cross over between Afghanistan and Pakistan often being exempted from customs due to the acceptance of their nomadic traditions by officials from both countries...
So no matter how hard you try , you can not deny that the forefathers of Muslims of present day Pakistan saved the Indians from the Mongols . And the point "when no one else could" can be argued upon . My point is that Indians (here on PDF) always say that the Muslims of North West India did not defend India from foreign invasions , this is a patent falsehood resulting from blind hatred and lack of knowledge of history !!!

So what's ur point they should have laid down and let the mongols destroy them?They did it entirely for themselves and for self-survival.And yes khiljis turks settled in that area and later in bengal and UP as well.Then skandagupta from bihar and yasodharman from malwa saved india from huns including those of modern day pakistan.Chandragupta saved modern day pakistan from seleucus and his army repeating the city razing the macedonians had done under alexander in multan,mallia and aornos.
In the same vein delhi sultanate failed to save subcontinent from timur and mughals from nadir shah.
 
So what's ur point they should have laid down and let the mongols destroy them?They did it entirely for themselves and for self-survival.And yes khiljis turks settled in that area and later in bengal and UP as well.Then skandagupta from bihar and yasodharman from malwa saved india from huns including those of modern day pakistan.Chandragupta saved modern day pakistan from seleucus and his army repeating the city razing the macedonians had done under alexander in multan,mallia and aornos.
In the same vein delhi sultanate failed to save subcontinent from timur and mughals from nadir shah.

The examples you gave by no means match the example of Alauddin khilji saving India from the Mongols . Chandragupta was no doubt a great King , no one denies that , and the battlefield where the army of Alexander the Great was scared to hell in their own words , was also in present day Pakistan . The brave people of Swat , Boner and Punjab offered such a great resistance to the Macedonians that they quit their ambition of further conquests .
 
The examples you gave by no means match the example of Alauddin khilji saving India from the Mongols . Chandragupta was no doubt a great King , no one denies that , and the battlefield where the army of Alexander the Great was scared to hell in their own words , was also in present day Pakistan . The brave people of Swat , Boner and Punjab offered such a great resistance to the Macedonians that they quit their ambition of further conquests .

Did they now,then what was seleucus doing there on the indus?And yes,though the people offered superb resistance they were defeated .It was the fear of the centralized armies further inland fielding huge forces of war elephants that drove away the macedonians.Macednonian army suffered heaviest losses to a handful[80-140] war elephants whereas the nandas had 3000-5000.
Also the barbarity of the mongols is similar to that of the huns under toramon and mihirkula.And who do u think saved N-W india from those?Skandgupta from modern day bihar area,and Yasobraman from Malwa -none in modern day pakistan.
And while ur pointing out to the success of the sultanate armies under alauddin,not to forget they failed to stop timur and mughals too failed against nader and later ahmad shah who looted N-W india and modern day pakistan thoroughly.
Also N-W rulers from modern day paksitan failed to protect the subcontinent from ghazni.as did those of the hinterland.Areas of modern day pak succumbed to arab invasions,while those of rajasthan and gujarat drove them away permanently.
 
Also the barbarity of the mongols is similar to that of the huns under toramon and mihirkula.And who do u think saved N-W india from those?Skandgupta from modern day bihar area,and Yasobraman from Malwa -none in modern day pakistan

Skandagupta died in mid 5th century whereas Toramon and Mihirakula were kings of North west India in early sixth century . So can you please explain that how did he save people of North West India 50 years after his death ??? And also present day Pakistan was a part of Gupta Empire for some time only , and that too in only some areas of Punjab and Sindh .. Yashodharman of Malava, seem to have confronted Mihirakula and forced him back to the north. Ultimately kingdom of Mihirakula was limited to Kashmir and Punjab with its capital at Shakala (possibly present-day Sialkot). So How did he save people of North West India when present day Pakistan was still under Hun kings?? And most importantly the cruelty of Mihirakula is recorded only in buddhist tradtion . Guptas may have been more cruel .

It was the fear of the centralized armies further inland fielding huge forces of war elephants that drove away the macedonians.Macednonian army suffered heaviest losses to a handful[80-140] war elephants whereas the nandas had 3000-5000.

Its only a speculation , we are talking about what actually happened , not what could possibly happen . And Alexanders alleged victory in North West India has been challenged by some reputable scholars .

And while ur pointing out to the success of the sultanate armies under alauddin,not to forget they failed to stop timur and mughals too failed against nader and later ahmad shah who looted N-W india and modern day pakistan thoroughly.
Also N-W rulers from modern day paksitan failed to protect the subcontinent from ghazni.as did those of the hinterland

Let me rephrase it for my Indian friends here . While pointing out failures of Muslim rulers and people of North West India , they should keep in mind that the same Muslim rulers and people saved them from the most barbaric nation of human history ...


Areas of modern day pak succumbed to arab invasions,while those of rajasthan and gujarat drove them away permanently.

Except Punjab . And the Gujjars of Kannauj defended Rajhastan and gujrat bravely , no doubt ... Today Gujjars make up 15- 20 % of Pakistan`s total population !!
 
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Khiljis were Afghans , though some historians argue that they were Turks who had settled in Afghanistan long time ago . Most importantly , they were not treated as Turks by the Turks in Delhi court but as Afghans . (Chaurasia, Radhey Shyam (2002).History of medieval India: from 1000 A.D. to 1707 A.D) . And in present day Pakistan , one of the four provinces is the "Afghana" province . , Khilji are the second-largest Pashtun tribal confederacy found in Afghanistan and Pakistan. In Pakistan , there number exceeds 4 million . .They regularly cross over between Afghanistan and Pakistan often being exempted from customs due to the acceptance of their nomadic traditions by officials from both countries...
So no matter how hard you try , you can not deny that the forefathers of Muslims of present day Pakistan saved the Indians from the Mongols . And the point "when no one else could" can be argued upon . My point is that Indians (here on PDF) always say that the Muslims of North West India did not defend India from foreign invasions , this is a patent falsehood resulting from blind hatred and lack of knowledge of history !!!

I doubt they were Turks because there is no trace of East Asian genes in them.

Edit: Actually i was confusing them with other group, i can't find any genetic studies of Khiljis pashtuns. But i doubt they have turks origin going by their looks.
 
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These barbaric punishments so demoralised the Mongols that "all fancy of coming to Hindustan was washed off their breasts." As a matter of fact, the new frontier army under Ghazi Malik took the offensive and paid the Mongols in their own coin. The Delhi army carried fire and sword to the Mongol territories. According to one authority, the Delhi army even captured Ghazni.

Khiljis were themselves barbarians like Mongol, Khiljis looted and destroyed the 5 great univerisities of medieval North India like Nalanda, Vikramshila, Odantapura, Jaggadala and Somapura.
 
2]There was no centralized large power in russia.
3]The mongol war machine at its time was the deadliest ever to have rode the earth.
The organization,
tactical skill were totally out of place in the drab middle ages and had a plethora of superb commanders as well.The tactic of retreat would be considered dishonuorable and cowardly in almost any culture during this period,especially medieval europe.Mongols fought to win,not for honour or god.[among the common goals in medieval period]

2) Leaded to strategic superiority of Mongols
3) Leaded to tactical superiority.
"Organization", I like this word. Well organized and trained army with talented commander is like symphony orchestra in music. Tactics is like symphony. With poorly organized, trained and directed orchestra any musical masterpiece will fail.
But as you have said they fought to win. That idea is good to unite people for fight, but when the fight ends, then people loose the idea. Absence of general national idea may lead to degradation and fall. As we can see for Mongol empire.
 
Well you can call it nonsense , but this is infact the most popular theory on origin of Hazara people . In history , there are theories , not verdicts

Another popular theory proposes that Hazara are descendants of the Kushans, the ancient dwellers of Afghanistan who are believed to have built the Buddhas of Bamiyan. Its proponents find the location of the Hazara homeland, and the similarity in facial features of Hazara with those on frescoes and Buddha's statues in Bamiyan, suggestive. However, this belief is contrary not only to the fact that the Kushans were Tocharians, but also to historical records which mention that in a particularly bloody battle around Bamiyan, Genghis Khan's grandson, Mutugen, was killed, and he allegedly ordered Bamiyan to be destroyed in retribution.
. The theory, and the one accepted by most scholars, however, is that Hazara are a mixed group. This is not entirely inconsistent with descent from Mongol military forces. For example, Nikudari Mongols settled in eastern Persia and mixed with native populations who spoke Persian. A second wave of mostly Chagatai Mongols came from Central Asia and were followed by other Mongolic groups, associated with the Ilkhanate and the Timurids, all of whom settled in Hazarajat and mixed with the local, mostly Persian-speaking population, forming a distinct group

Hazara people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Without taking side in this controversy (see also Ferdinand, 1959, 1964; Mousavi, pp. 28-31), it seems probable historically that the origins of the Hazāras lie with the Mongolian and Turkish groups which progressively penetrated the infertile mountainous region situated between Persia, Central Asia, and India between the 13th and the 15th centuries, mixed with the local population and adopted their language. It must also be pointed out that Turko-Mongolian people, like the Hephtalites (5th and 6th centuries), were already present in what is today Afghanistan and therefore may also have played a role in the ethnogenesis of the Hazāras (Mousavi, p. 38).

Nevertheless, Fredrik Barth’s work on ethnicity (1969) has made it evident that group identity is not defined by objective traits and does not follow from a common origin or even a common culture. It is, rather, the result of a constant process of social interaction by which a boundary is created and maintained in an enduring way. There are many Middle Eastern examples where distinct groups were formed by people of heterogeneous origins in marginal regions following a continuing process of inclusion and exclusion and of resistance to central powers (Canfield, 1973a, pp. 10-12 and 1973b, pp. 1511-13). In the case of the Hazāras, the feeling of belonging to one group does not proceed from a supposed Mongolian origin, but from a process of marginalization which started several centuries ago. As mentioned already, the term hazārahas been used to designate a heterogeneous group, including some Sunni groups (for instance in the district of Rustāq, province of Taḵar, or the district of Nahrin, province of Baḡlān). It seems to refer as much to a social position as to a common historical origin.

This needs a detailed refutation only on the face of it.

The point was about the Hazaras possible connection with the Kushans. None of what you have cited above helps to bring the Kushans and the origins of the Hazaras closer together. None of the comments by Barth relate to this particular episode; Barth is generally authentic, but his comments emphatically do not relate to the Kushans in this passage.
 
Skandagupta died in mid 5th century whereas Toramon and Mihirakula were kings of North west India in early sixth century . So can you please explain that how did he save people of North West India 50 years after his death ??? And also present day Pakistan was a part of Gupta Empire for some time only , and that too in only some areas of Punjab and Sindh .. Yashodharman of Malava, seem to have confronted Mihirakula and forced him back to the north. Ultimately kingdom of Mihirakula was limited to Kashmir and Punjab with its capital at Shakala (possibly present-day Sialkot). So How did he save people of North West India when present day Pakistan was still under Hun kings?? And most importantly the cruelty of Mihirakula is recorded only in buddhist tradtion . Guptas may have been more cruel .

Skandagupta repulsed the first massive invasion of the huns.Toramana a successor of this line of hepthalites was defeated by prakashdharma.As for mihirkula ,due to his defeat under yasodharman after him huns were uprooted from N-W india altogether including pak punjab and sindh area.Guptas more cruel?Plz.Gupta age is considered classical age for development in science,astrology,arts,culture,literature.Sure this was cruel and barbarous.And the rampant destruction of some of the great universities by khiljis are to be applauded,while the destruction of the great archives of baghdad are lamented[rightly].

Its only a speculation , we are talking about what actually happened , not what could possibly happen . And Alexanders alleged victory in North West India has been challenged by some reputable scholars .

Its the generally accepted theory.Why would alexander go back in the fear of enemies he had already defeated.I'll do a battle report on hydaspes next for details on the moves.Meagsthenes a contemporary of alexander and reputed historian himself cites this reason.

Let me rephrase it for my Indian friends here . While pointing out failures of Muslim rulers and people of North West India , they should keep in mind that the same Muslim rulers and people saved them from the most barbaric nation of human history ...

I'm not pointing out muslim failures as such,i'm only reminding u of the failures to temper ur bombast regarding their successes.And to say that its not only muslim rulers and not only from modern day paksitan that have saved india from devastation throughout her history.



Except Punjab . And the Gujjars of Kannauj defended Rajhastan and gujrat bravely , no doubt ... Today Gujjars make up 15- 20 % of Pakistan`s total population !!

The battle of rajasthan was won by gurjara pratiharas of rajasthan supported by rajputs from chittor and the western chalukya rastrakutas of the deccan/gujarat.Sindh and western modern day pakistan was overrun by arabs.Gujjars constitute a large population in pakistan as in india .Rajasthan and gujarat the powerbase for these 2 powers are not in modern day paksitan either.In this case succesful resistance was mounted from this side of the indus.
 
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This needs a detailed refutation only on the face of it.

The point was about the Hazaras possible connection with the Kushans. None of what you have cited above helps to bring the Kushans and the origins of the Hazaras closer together. None of the comments by Barth relate to this particular episode; Barth is generally authentic, but his comments emphatically do not relate to the Kushans in this passage.

Read my original post . I said that Hazara are a mixed group , most probably of Kushan origin , who later mixed with Mongols . They are not the descendants of Genghis Khan , neither they are of Mongol origins ...... Now read it all again so you may understand my point ...

Also this may help :
Hazara People International Network | Hazara History

Hazara people are Turkic people and descendants of the Kushans. There are also Mongol influences in less than ten percent of Hazaras. Hazara People are living in Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, India and central Asian countries like Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan. Millions of Hazara people were and are forced to leave their homeland, the country we call Afghanistan now



The battle of rajasthan was won by gurjara pratiharas of rajasthan supported by rajputs from chittor and the western chalukya rastrakutas of the deccan/gujarat.Sindh and western modern day pakistan was overrun by arabs.Gujjars constitute a large population in pakistan as in india .Rajasthan and gujarat the powerbase for these 2 powers are not in modern day paksitan either.In this case succesful resistance was mounted from this side of the indus.

Today these areas may not be in Pakistan , but The Gurjars are the ancestors of one of the largest ethnic group of Modern day Pakistan .... And thats what I said :)
 
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I doubt they were Turks because there is no trace of East Asian genes in them.
Edit: Actually i was confusing them with other group, i can't find any genetic studies of Khiljis pashtuns. But i doubt they have turks origin going by their looks.

brother @ghilzai may explain it better
 
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