What's new

Military's role in the identity of Pakistan

Central Punjabis that I have seen come in all shades. Though, even the darker ones don't look like biharis and upites. Central Punjabi jatts and rajputs on average look different from other Punjabi castes like Lohars, Mians, julayas etc. All in all, central Punjabis look no different from the Sikhs, who are not really dark skinned. Travel to Punjab yourself and then make up your mind. These Afghani trolls spread a lot of misinformation for they are both jealous and suffering from some sort of complex. Skin colour is not a measure of a nation's superiority or inferiority.

With that being said, if I base my judgement on the Dogras living in Potohar, then yes, Dogras are light skinned people. But it has more to do with sunlight exposure and snowy mountains and all. After
.

I think you have not traveled to central punjab proper, which are villages. I have seen so called kammi (which basically mean someone have been working as lohar, etc since generations) who have lighter feutures. The only group one can say is dark skinned and look different is mussali/chura. Hell as i mentioned earlier there is nomadic group (garbaje picker) in our areas who on average have higher % of light eyes then others.

So its wrong to say all kammis like Lohar, Kumehar are darker. Only chura/mussali fit that discription, a part from other differences like they will be shorter in height also. I will post picture from my village to show difference between mussali and other.

One is jatt in center, other two mussali

1962685_650912001642918_488046704_n.jpg
 
Last edited:
.
They sided with SIkhs for just employment in my opinion. The politically dominant muslim jatt clan in Punjab, the Chatthas got destroyed after they gallantly resisted Sikhs. I don't believe chatthas assisted the Sikhs afterwards. The Bhatti rajputs and Manj rajputs were also defeated. I believe before Sikh rule, the rulling class of Punjab was muslim rajputs and jatts. Sikhs defeated each tribe one by one. Had Punjabi muslim tribes united under a single banner, it can be safe to assume that Sikhs woud have never taken over Punjab. The Chibs of Mirpur and Bhimber were 60% muslim and 40% hindu. They put up a stout resistance against the Sikhs, routing Sikh armies on many occasions until their leader was treacherously murdered by Gulab Singh Dogra. The Janjuas and Gakkhars were majority muslim and they did put up a resistance. One of Ranjit Singh's hardest fight was against a Janjua fortress called qila kusak in Chakwal.

A lot of these northern Rajas still have got it in them. General Haroon Aslam is a Chibh from mirpur, and if he was the COAS right now, he wouldn't have given much of a f*** for what Ganja says and would have gone after the TTP by now. He was the one who threw Talicunt soldiers from helicopters in Swat. Ganja intentionally superseded him as he was too much of a warrior.

I don't think ruling class was muslim jatt, the area was either ruled by Mughals or Afghans before rise of Sikh Empire. As jaggu explained rishtedari was also main reason. On PDF there is sikh jatt who still have muslim family in Sialkot, cant remember his user. Start with s i think. So one can imagine how things would have been back then. While potohar rajas were practically muslims at that point.

Also jats were known for being, farmers while rajputs warriors. Its safe to say there wouldnt have been rise of Sikh Empire if not for heavy taxes on peasants. Because then central punjab jats wouldnt have converted to sikhsm en mass.

nope,,,i am assamese,n thats not my pic,,,
pic is of an assamese too n a former mr. universe,came to know him personaly through an ngo where he was providing for ppl with kidney problems,,,,,,even went to gym with him:agree:

Majak kar raha tha lol
 
.
I don't think ruling class was muslim jatt, the area was either ruled by Mughals or Afghans before rise of Sikh Empire. As jaggu explained rishtedari was also main reason. On PDF there is sikh jatt who still have muslim family in Sialkot, cant remember his user. Start with s i think. So one can imagine how things would have been back then. While potohar rajas were practically muslims at that point.

Also jats were known for being, farmers while rajputs warriors. Its safe to say there wouldnt have been rise of Sikh Empire if not for heavy taxes on peasants. Because then central punjab jats wouldnt have converted to sikhsm en mass.

Well the Chatthas are Jatts. The Chattas were even backed by Ahmad Shah Abdali in their fight against the Sikhs, but since Abdali was a complete failure in Punjab, his help was useless. The Chattas were warriors and so were the Cheemas. That's why a lot of them use "Khan" as a surname. But yeah, Jatts were generally farmers but they do have a talent for fighting. The Jats of Rajasthan even sacked Delhi once. Are Punjabi and Rajasthani jatts related?
 
.
Well the Chatthas are Jatts. The Chattas were even backed by Ahmad Shah Abdali in their fight against the Sikhs, but since Abdali was a complete failure in Punjab, his help was useless. The Chattas were warriors and so were the Cheemas. That's why a lot of them use "Khan" as a surname. But yeah, Jatts were generally farmers but they do have a talent for fighting. The Jats of Rajasthan even sacked Delhi once. Are Punjabi and Rajasthani jatts related?

No idea if they are related or not. Jats are in Punjab, Haryana, Rajasthan and Sindh. Also sorrounding areas but main population live in those 4 states.
 
.
Do not take seriously opinions of Indians and Afghanis about us, Indians like Indic and Afghanis like Pak-One. Don't let you confuse his user name, he is Afghani refugee in Pakistan. Both hate us don't expect neutral opinion.
It's funny how you say Indians don't know anything about Pakistan and can't comment on Pakistan and yet you are all experts on India when the situation is reversed.


Just saying :coffee:
 
.
It's funny how you say Indians don't know anything about Pakistan and can't comment on Pakistan and yet you are all experts on India when the situation is reversed.


Just saying :coffee:

Will you write thesis on my opinions of bharotis? Think logically for once. That opinion for Karla still stands, especially PDF Afghanis and Bharotis.
 
.
Well the Chatthas are Jatts. The Chattas were even backed by Ahmad Shah Abdali in their fight against the Sikhs, but since Abdali was a complete failure in Punjab, his help was useless. The Chattas were warriors and so were the Cheemas. That's why a lot of them use "Khan" as a surname. But yeah, Jatts were generally farmers but they do have a talent for fighting. The Jats of Rajasthan even sacked Delhi once. Are Punjabi and Rajasthani jatts related?

Punjabi Jatts are related to haryanvi, Rajasthani and western up Jatts. Haryanvi Jatts are quite strong and athletic people. Indian boxer vijender Singh is a haryanvi jaat.
 
.
@Plan @jandk

Interestingly, a lot of Punjabi jatts claim a rajput descent. The Virks claim to be descended from Dogra minhas, Brars from Bhattis and Ghummans from Janjuas.

And yeah, the princely state of bharatpur was ruled by Jatts. They even attacked the British but made peace afterwards. They even have a good track record against Mughals.
 
.
@Plan @jandk

Interestingly, a lot of Punjabi jatts claim a rajput descent. The Virks claim to be descended from Dogra minhas, Brars from Bhattis and Ghummans from Janjuas.

And yeah, the princely state of bharatpur was ruled by Jatts. They even attacked the British but made peace afterwards. They even have a good track record against Mughals.

I think those jats will claim mythical king who in ancient times meant ''rajput'' decent. At this point its like claiming to be syed.
 
Last edited:
.
@Plan @jandk

Interestingly, a lot of Punjabi jatts claim a rajput descent. The Virks claim to be descended from Dogra minhas, Brars from Bhattis and Ghummans from Janjuas.

And yeah, the princely state of bharatpur was ruled by Jatts. They even attacked the British but made peace afterwards. They even have a good track record against Mughals.

That may be because Rajputs are higher in the caste pecking order. People claim all sorts of things. Do you think the claims have merit?
 
. .
I think jats were outside caste system.

@haj9211

Yes they were. Maybe that's why some claim Rajput origins though the claim may actually be legitimate. On a related note, Rajput genes probably vary a lot more than Jat genes. Rajputs look completely different depending on the area they inhabit whereas Jatt look is more homogenous. Probably because rajputs are spread across such a vast area. IMO Dogra Rajputs look just as robust (if not more than) as Jatts whereas Rajasthani Rajputs are skinnier than Jatts. So Dogra Rajputs could be related to nearby Jatt clans.

Some examples of Dogra Rajputs- Yes I'm cherry picking a bit

Major Ranveer Singh Jamwal - on left receiving the prize

This is a common look among Dogra Rajputs.

192013233417569.jpg


jk10.jpg


Random

cCQRWWg.jpg


4.JPG


LOL
dsj.jpg


1510442_10152681565918265_1680429916_n.jpg


ss01.jpg


These are mostly only one clan of rajputs - the Jamwals. The last guy is a "Salaria". I posted his pic before.
 
.
They sided with SIkhs for just employment in my opinion. The politically dominant muslim jatt clan in Punjab, the Chatthas got destroyed after they gallantly resisted Sikhs. I don't believe chatthas assisted the Sikhs afterwards. The Bhatti rajputs and Manj rajputs were also defeated. I believe before Sikh rule, the rulling class of Punjab was muslim rajputs and jatts. Sikhs defeated each tribe one by one. Had Punjabi muslim tribes united under a single banner, it can be safe to assume that Sikhs woud have never taken over Punjab. The Chibs of Mirpur and Bhimber were 60% muslim and 40% hindu. They put up a stout resistance against the Sikhs, routing Sikh armies on many occasions until their leader was treacherously murdered by Gulab Singh Dogra. The Janjuas and Gakkhars were majority muslim and they did put up a resistance. One of Ranjit Singh's hardest fight was against a Janjua fortress called qila kusak in Chakwal.

A lot of these northern Rajas still have got it in them. General Haroon Aslam is a Chibh from mirpur, and if he was the COAS right now, he wouldn't have given much of a f*** for what Ganja says and would have gone after the TTP by now. He was the one who threw Talicunt soldiers from helicopters in Swat. Ganja intentionally superseded him as he was too much of a warrior.

You are thinking based on modern social boundaries. Back in the 1700s there were various Muslim, Hindu and Sikhs chiefs. Among Muslims, various Rajput, Jatt, Pasthun and even Baloch chiefs ruling Punjab, among the Hindus there were Rajput hill chiefs, Jatts in central and eastern Punjab, and among the Sikhs various Sikh misls. All of these various groups were rivals of one another. It was a dog eat dog like situation. The Sikh misls would only unite with each other when fighting the Afghans or Mughals, otherwise when that danger was over they were fighting each other. So this was the situation on ground before the rise of Ranjit Singh who united not only Sikhs but also all the Muslim and Hindu chiefs to build a powerful unified Punjab.

As for Punjabi Muslim chiefs uniting. This did occur, not once but many times. First time this occurred was during the time of Banda Singh Bahadur. After the fall of the Sikhs they went under ground. Zakriya Khan, Mir Mannu, Adina Beg and later Ahmad Shah Abdali had all united the Muslim and Hindu chiefs of Punjab in order to exterminate the Sikhs in the various Ghalugaras. This resulted in the Sikhs living in jungles, and mountains and on some occasions even fleeing to the deserts of Rajasthan. Regrouping, these misls would forget their personal differences and come back to fight united and stronger. So this was in Punjab west of river Satluj.

On the eastern side of Satluj in Malwa the main rivalry was between the Muslim Bhatti Rajputs and the Sidhu Brar Phulkian chiefs who had just embraced Sikhism. The Bhatti chiefs who were the rulers of the area considered these Jats as upstarts. Eventually the Phulkian chiefs under Raja Ala Singh beat the Bhattis and became rulers of Malwa and established the Patiala, Jind, Nabha states. But unlike the Sikhs of central Punjab, who were enemies of the Mughals and Afghans, the Phulkia chiefs under Ala Singh became an ally of the Mughals and later the Afghans. It is said that the only ruler in Malwa Abdali trusted was Ala Singh and under the advise of his Afghan generals gave the governorship of Sirhind to Ala Singh.

Same situation occurred in Lahore. Muslim leaders of Lahore asked abdali to give the governorship of Lahore to Gujjar Singh Bangi who was an able administrator and secular person who had built mosques for Muslims in his territory. Impressed by hearing this, Abdali offered Lahore to Gujjar Singh who appreciated the offer but decline to rule under Abdali's name as this would have made him into an enemy of his rival Sikh chiefs. Gujjar Singh was a good military chief, who extended the territory of the Bhangi Misl to Potohar beating the Gakhars from whom he took Rohtas.

BTW, Chathas assisted the Sikhs. They even served as generals during Ranjit Singh era. Briefly they were rivals of the Sukarchakia misl because both contested for the Zamzama gun built by Abdali because this gun had become a status symbol for the chiefs of Punjab.
 
Last edited:
.
You are thinking based on modern social boundaries. Back in the 1700s there were various Muslim, Hindu and Sikhs chiefs. Among Muslims, various Rajput, Jatt, Pasthun and even Baloch chiefs ruling Punjab, among the Hindus there were Rajput hill chiefs, Jatts in central and eastern Punjab, and among the Sikhs various Sikh misls. All of these various groups were rivals of one another. It was a dog eat dog like situation. The Sikh misls would only unite with each other when fighting the Afghans or Mughals, otherwise when that danger was over they were fighting each other. So this was the situation on ground before the rise of Ranjit Singh who united not only Sikhs but also all the Muslim and Hindu chiefs to build a powerful unified Punjab.

As for Punjabi Muslim chiefs uniting. This did occur, not once but many times. First time this occurred was during the time of Banda Singh Bahadur. After the fall of the Sikhs they went under ground. Zakriya Khan, Adina Beg and later Ahmad Shah Abdali had all united the Muslim and Hindu chiefs of Punjab in order to exterminate the Sikhs in the various Ghalugaras. This resulted in the Sikhs living in jungles, and mountains and on some occasions even fleeing to the deserts of Rajasthan. Regrouping, these misls would forget their personal differences and come back to fight united and stronger. So this was in Punjab west of river Satluj.

On the eastern side of Satluj in Malwa the main rivalry was between the Muslim Bhatti Rajputs and the Sidhu Brar Phulkian chiefs who had just embraced Sikhism. The Bhatti chiefs who were the rulers of the area considered these Jats as upstarts. Eventually the Phulkian chiefs under Raja Ala Singh beat the Bhattis and became rulers of Malwa and established the Patiala, Jind, Nabha states. But unlike the Sikhs of central Punjab, who were enemies of the Mughals and Afghans, the Phulkia chiefs under Ala Singh became an ally of the Mughals and later the Afghans. It is said that the only ruler in Malwa Abdali trusted was Ala Singh and under the advise of his Afghan generals gave the governorship of Sirhind to Ala Singh.

Same situation occurred in Lahore. Muslim leaders of Lahore asked abdali to give the governorship of Lahore to Gujjar Singh Bangi who was an able administrator and secular person who had build mosques for Muslims in his territory. Impressed by hearing this, Abdali offered Lahore to Gujjar Singh who appreciated the offer but politely decline to rule under Abdali's name as this would have made him into an enemy of his rival Sikh chiefs. Gujjar Singh was a good military chief, who extended the territory of the Bhangti Misl to Potohar beating the Gakhars from whom he took Rohtas.

BTW, Chathas assisted the Sikhs. They even served as generals during Ranjit Singh era. Briefly they were rivals of the Sukarchakia misl because both contested for the Zamzama gun built by Abdali but this gun had become a status symbol for the chiefs of Punjab.

Interesting, the more you dig deeper the more obvious it is that religion didnt play as important role as once believed.
 
.
Interesting, the more you dig deeper the more obvious it is that religion didnt play as important role as once believed.
India during the 1700-1800 was a mess because the Mughal empire had collapsed, but it's also probably the most interesting time period to read about. Hundreds of rival chiefs all playing a geographical chess game with each other.
 
Last edited:
.
Back
Top Bottom