Military's role in the identity of Pakistan

[Pakistanisage]

Oh my God! I didnot knew u were Mexican

It would be an honour to be considered Mexican. I have tons of Hispanic Friends and I love them.

A third of my university Students are Hispanic. Keep in mind I live in New York City ( the City of Immigrants ).

 

[jandk]

Look at this picture and decide yourself if they are Dogra or Punjabi by culture.

This isn't dogra culture. We dogras don't wear himachali topi. Himachali culture is completely different.

 

[Karla M]

Hi folks!!!
@Armstrong @Leader @DESERT FIGHTER @LoveIcon
@Shahmir kashmir @shan @pakdefender @KingMamba
I get the feeling i am forgetting someone? :O

Before i can finally move on from Punjab topic to Baluchistan hehe ...

What do you think of this for my chapter:

2. Punjab

• Some kind of introduction where I would explain about population, regions, and ethnic/linguistics diversity.

2.1. Jagirs.​

• • where i would explain the influence of landowners in politics.

2.2. Punjabis in the army​

• • Punjab regiment

2.3. Myth of "Punjabization"​

• • I have read this:
    " To a great extent, of course, there is no establishment conspiracy about Punjab's domination of Pakistan- with some 56% of the population and some 75% of the industry, it naturally outweighs the other provinces, just as England naturally dominates the UK..."
  • and about how it is used as some nationalism tool by other leaders... ¿?

--->> nooo!! i dont want another huge debate of this last part.... and accusations of me being an indian troll -.-

or do you think i shouldn't even mention about the point 2.3 ?¿?¿???

If it shouldnt even mentioned...what do you suggest for 2.3 instead??

 

[Leader]

Hi folks!!!
@Armstrong @Leader @DESERT FIGHTER @LoveIcon
@Shahmir kashmir @shan @pakdefender @KingMamba
I get the feeling i am forgetting someone? :O

Before i can finally move on from Punjab topic to Baluchistan hehe ...

What do you think of this for my chapter:

2. Punjab

• Some kind of introduction where I would explain about population, regions, and ethnic/linguistics diversity.

2.1. Jagirs.​

• • where i would explain the influence of landowners in politics.

2.2. Punjabis in the army​

• • Punjab regiment

2.3. Myth of "Punjabization"​

• • I have read this:
    " To a great extent, of course, there is no establishment conspiracy about Punjab's domination of Pakistan- with some 56% of the population and some 75% of the industry, it naturally outweighs the other provinces, just as England naturally dominates the UK..."
  • and about how it is used as some nationalism tool by other leaders... ¿?

--->> nooo!! i dont want another huge debate of this last part.... and accusations of me being an indian troll -.-

or do you think i shouldn't even mention about the point 2.3 ?¿?¿???

If it shouldnt even mentioned...what do you suggest for 2.3 instead??

2.3 is a great point... we tend to develop conspiracy theories quickly... but you rationalized it well...

I recommended you lectures of Hasan Askari...that professor coined the term, over-developed state structure, by which he meant that military-civil bureaucracy dominated the national affairs including foreign policy and hence the grievances of smaller provinces..
let me ask some of my friends, if they have a thesis on this topic, but wont it be plagiarism, if you consult another thesis on the same subject?

 

[Sugarcane]

Hi folks!!!
@Armstrong @Leader @DESERT FIGHTER @LoveIcon
@Shahmir kashmir @shan @pakdefender @KingMamba
I get the feeling i am forgetting someone? :O

Before i can finally move on from Punjab topic to Baluchistan hehe ...

What do you think of this for my chapter:

2. Punjab

• Some kind of introduction where I would explain about population, regions, and ethnic/linguistics diversity.

2.1. Jagirs.​

• • where i would explain the influence of landowners in politics.

2.2. Punjabis in the army​

• • Punjab regiment

2.3. Myth of "Punjabization"​

• • I have read this:
    " To a great extent, of course, there is no establishment conspiracy about Punjab's domination of Pakistan- with some 56% of the population and some 75% of the industry, it naturally outweighs the other provinces, just as England naturally dominates the UK..."
  • and about how it is used as some nationalism tool by other leaders... ¿?

--->> nooo!! i dont want another huge debate of this last part.... and accusations of me being an indian troll -.-

or do you think i shouldn't even mention about the point 2.3 ?¿?¿???

If it shouldnt even mentioned...what do you suggest for 2.3 instead??

2.1 - I think it's better to use word feudalism - as Jagairs is Urdu word.

It would be better to add topic of Biradarism (Urdu/Persian word for brother hood) - It also have significant role in politics of Punjab - You can get help from this http://pu.edu.pk/images/journal/studies/PDF-FILES/Artical-10_v14_no2_13.pdf -- ignore the details, just include summary.

2.2. Is ok - But Punjab regiment is wrong example, As we have regiments at name of every province. You should focus on %age of Punjabis historical and current and give your views on it.

2.3 Will p!ss your Adviser, but i guess you have to make it more balanced - from the contents it looks like that you are acting as advocate of Punjabis - And by the way, Punjab also have largest share in Agriculture - other than Industrial & Service sector. I am not sure about 75% Industry figure, recheck it with someone.

 

[Karla M]

2.3 is a great point... we tend to develop conspiracy theories quickly... but you rationalized it well...

I recommended you lectures of Hasan Askari...that professor coined the term, over-developed state structure, by which he meant that military-civil bureaucracy dominated the national affairs including foreign policy and hence the grievances of smaller provinces..
let me ask some of my friends, if they have a thesis on this topic, but wont it be plagiarism, if you consult another thesis on the same subject?

thankss!
oooh Hasan Askari I am googling him right now....
noo.. it wont be because of course I am going to quote them !!! in this sense my university and professors (even me, i wouldnt steal ideas) are very strict

 

[Leader]

@Karla M also that British raised a great deal of soldiers from Punjab, mainly from upper punjab.. Punjab was also their first line of defence to safeguard India from the Russians in "the great game".. they gave land to different tribes, such as Khosa, Laghari etc on the bordering side of the Punjab, who in return raised personnel and horses for the british army, this way their loyalty was bought.. soon after the urge to join Army as officers also rose, and that is why eventually British had to induct Indian officers in the Royal Army..

this you can add in the background, if you like.

thankss!
oooh Hasan Askari I am googling him right now....
noo.. it wont be because of course I am going to quote them !!! in this sense my university and professors (even me, i wouldnt steal ideas) are very strict

alright, the standard 30/70 rule applies I guess... fair, I will ask a friend to forward if he has any thesis related to your topic..

 

[Jaggu]

Really? Let me remind you that bilour family and haji adeel are hindki, yet they are top leaders of ANP. Zafar iqbal jaghra of PML-N is also hindki.
Kashmiris are readily welcomed in punjab but the rest specially pashtuns are not easily accepted in punjabi society. Pashtuns are viewed with suspicion, some of pashtuns permenantly settled in punjab have told me that punjabi mothers dont allow their kids any where around a pashtun even if he is their neighbour settled for decades, the stereotype prevalent in punjab is that pashtuns kidnap kids. When they told me about this, i remembered that its usually a pathan in urdu children stories, who kidnaps children in bori.

Do Pashtuns who settle in Punjab maintain Pashto language or do they begin to speak Punjabi?

As for the stereotype about Pasthuns kidnapping children, it is not new. Interesting you mentioned this, my grandmother tells me that when they were living in West Punjab before partition and when she was a child, she and her brothers and sisters were told by their parents to stay away from Pathans for fear of kidnapping. I think these stereotypes are baseless. sadly, these stereotypes along with the ethnic jokes persist from one generation to the next without people understanding how hurtful they may be to the ethnicity.

 

[Sugarcane]

@Karla M Although i don't agree with many things in this book but anyway you can also look at non-Pakistani version about Punjabization ---> Pakistan: Nationalism Without A Nation - Google Books

 

[Karla M]

2.1 - I think it's better to use word feudalism - as Jagairs is Urdu word.

It would be better to add topic of Biradarism (Urdu/Persian word for brother hood) - It also have significant role in politics of Punjab - You can get help from this http://pu.edu.pk/images/journal/studies/PDF-FILES/Artical-10_v14_no2_13.pdf -- ignore the details, just include summary.

2.2. Is ok - But Punjab regiment is wrong example, As we have regiments at name of every province. You should focus on %age of Punjabis historical and current and give your views on it.

2.3 Will p!ss your Adviser, but i guess you have to make it more balanced - from the contents it looks like that you are acting as advocate of Punjabis - And by the way, Punjab also have largest share in Agriculture - other than Industrial & Service sector. I am not sure about 75% Industry figure, recheck it with someone.

ooh ok
so

2.1. Political influences: Feudalism and Biradarims (is this the same of "importance of kinship" that I have been reading a lot?)

2.2. Punjabis in the Army: ... from 1947 onwards and current percentage and recruitment of punjabis (because in my chapter 1 i already explained how the British recruitment changed since 1857)

2.3. haha! l'll let you know what he says about it... so in this one i should explore also agriculture, industry and service sector to make clear the point, yes i will double check on the %

thanks... am i missing something?

@Karla M also that British raised a great deal of soldiers from Punjab, mainly from upper punjab.. Punjab was also their first line of defence to safeguard India from the Russians in "the great game".. they gave land to different tribes, such as Khosa, Laghari etc on the bordering side of the Punjab, who in return raised personnel and horses for the british army, this way their loyalty was bought.. soon after the urge to join Army as officers also rose, and that is why eventually British had to induct Indian officers in the Royal Army..

this you can add in the background, if you like.



alright, the standard 30/70 rule applies I guess... fair, I will ask a friend to forward if he has any thesis related to your topic..

ooh yes thanks,.. in my Chapter 1... I explained some of that...after 1857 they changed from bengalis to Punjabis and pashtoons...(to be honest, i didnt put exact ethnicities such as Khosa and Laghari :-/ i guess i have to add ) and about the theory of "martial races" by the british

haha what is the rule of 30/70?
and thanksss for asking him

@Karla M Although i don't agree with many things in this book but anyway you can also look at non-Pakistani version about Punjabization ---> Pakistan: Nationalism Without A Nation - Google Books

gracias! taking a look now!

 

[ghoul]

Just to add another thing to this topic: Another reason of Punjabi prosperity in Pakistan is due to the highly entrepreneurial mentality of its people and their desire to seek education. Hell, Punjabi khatris, known as "chinioti sheikhs" practically dominate the industry in Pakistan along with the Sindhi memons. Majority of richest people in Pakistan are either Punjabi Khatris or Sindhi memons. The surgical equipment export market is dominated by Sialkoti lohars(literally an ethnic group that is known for blacksmithing). The Hindu khatris in Indian Punjab are also known to be successful industrialists, and practically dominate the bollywood. Khatris is an ethnic sub-tribe within the "punjabi" ethno-linguistic identity. According to Ibettson, the Afghans use to kidnap khatris not just to get ransom, but to actually make them do business which the Afghans feasted on. They are compared to "jews" in a lot of literature.

This success brews jealousy in other communities in Pakistan, who blame it on a so called "punjabi establishment racism". Politicians from other provinces take advantage of this by blaming Punjabis for stealing their resources. In summary, blaming Punjab for their own incompetency ensures political career for many politicians in Pakistan. MQM, ANP and PPP are the parties that exploit this sentiment the most.

 

[Porus]

Really? Let me remind you that bilour family and haji adeel are hindki, yet they are top leaders of ANP. Zafar iqbal jaghra of PML-N is also hindki.
Kashmiris are readily welcomed in punjab but the rest specially pashtuns are not easily accepted in punjabi society. Pashtuns are viewed with suspicion, some of pashtuns permenantly settled in punjab have told me that punjabi mothers dont allow their kids any where around a pashtun even if he is their neighbour settled for decades, the stereotype prevalent in punjab is that pashtuns kidnap kids. When they told me about this, i remembered that its usually a pathan in urdu children stories, who kidnaps children in bori.

In spite of living together since 1947 Pashtuns are still an enigma for an average Punjabi. Racially, linguistically and culturally Punjabis have more in common with Biharis and Bengalis than Pashtuns or Balochs, which is why Punjabis feels themselves more comfortable among Urdu Speaking people form Karachi. And no matter how many facts you present, you cannot eliminate the centuries old established prejudices and hate they bear against Pashtuns and Afghans.

 

[Karla M]

Just to add another thing to this topic: Another reason of Punjabi prosperity in Pakistan is due to the highly entrepreneurial mentality of its people and their desire to seek education. Hell, Punjabi khatris, known as "chinioti sheikhs" practically dominate the industry in Pakistan along with the Sindhi memons. Majority of richest people in Pakistan are either Punjabi Khatris or Sindhi memons. The surgical equipment export market is dominated by Sialkoti lohars(literally an ethnic group that is known for blacksmithing). The Hindu khatris in Indian Punjab are also known to be successful industrialists, and practically dominate the bollywood. Khatris is an ethnic sub-tribe within the "punjabi" ethno-linguistic identity. According to Ibettson, the Afghans use to kidnap khatris not just to get ransom, but to actually make them do business which the Afghans feasted on. They are compared to "jews" in a lot of literature.

This success brews jealousy in other communities in Pakistan, who blame it on a so called "punjabi establishment racism". Politicians from other provinces take advantage of this by blaming Punjabis for stealing their resources. In summary, blaming Punjab for their own incompetency ensures political career for many politicians in Pakistan. MQM, ANP and PPP are the parties that exploit this sentiment the most.

oooh yes entrepreneur mind is very important among population... In Mexico we have a province (Nuevo Leon) whose people are always trying to make business and therefore... they attracted foreign investment...development, education...etc ..which makes some other provinces bit resented instead of being glad and trying to work on a similar base
unfortunately , due drug cartels and violence that brought to that province... many foreign companies have gone and there's still fear.... they're still struggling

 

[ghoul]

In spite of living together since 1947 and average Pashtun is still an enigma for an average Punjabi. Racially, linguistically and culturally Punjabis have more in common with Biharis and Bengalis than Pashtuns or Balochs, which is why an average Punjabi feels himself more comfortable among Urdu Speaking prople form Karachi. And no matter how many facts you represent, you cannto eliminate the centuries old established prejudice and hate they bear against Pashtuns and Afghans.

A lot of Punjabis and Pashtuns are actually friends in real life, but you wouldn't know that because you live in some other country and rely solely upon the internet for information. Internet is usually full of socially retarded trolls. Afghani forums are full of such retards.
As far as genetics/race are concerned; well you don't know what you're talking about. See harappadna ancestry project. Contrary to popular belief, Punjabis are racially closest to Kashmiris. But whatever helps you sleep at night and fuels your false sense of superiority. Arguing with you people is useless as most of you have been brainwashed from birth by your parents. And most of the Punjabi and urdu speaking population doesn't really care that much, just as the rest of the civilized world.

oooh yes entrepreneur mind is very important among population... In Mexico we have a province (Nuevo Leon) whose people are always trying to make business and therefore... they attracted foreign investment...development, education...etc ..which makes some other provinces bit resented instead of being glad and trying to work on a similar base
unfortunately , due drug cartels and violence that brought to that province... many foreign companies have gone and there's still fear.... they're still struggling

That's the story of every other country it seems. In America, they have a slight resentment against the Jews, whom they consider to be greedy bankers and loan sharks. It all comes down to jealousy I believe. Starting and managing a business is risky and hard work, which a lot of people won't even bother to attempt, and then hate on the ones who get successful at it.

 

[Rocky rock]

@karla you.should visit this page...! www.Wikipedia.org/pakistan Rather than askin every single que on PDF...