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MEDIA OUTLET REPORTS POSSIBLE AIR DEFENCE DEAL BETWEEN PAKISTAN AND THALES

Wait, Haider mate, I'm not sure I got your meaning there ^^^.
If as I think, you're using the M2000H as a reference for French
weapons' prices, I may be able to answer. If not, ask me again
afterwards.

Yes, French weapons are a little more expensive than others, at
least as far as initial price goes. The main reason is independence.
The main reason for independence itself is Foreign Affairs, OFC.
In order to be independent, you must produce a bit of everything
sometimes spending huge amounts for small series. Even main
weapons are affected by the series effect and jets including the
Rafale suffer from it. With an initially planned production of 300
planes when US jets are bought by the thousands ( although with
rising prices they try to save by adding foreign orders for maximum output
),
being an order of 10 down means every part is amortized less.

That is alleviated because we do buy rare stuff from allies, mostly
from our American friends and the core of Europe. But it has other
cost then maintaining small plants of highly qualified people making
small batches of pricey items. In order for independence to have any
meaning, it must endure in time and we spend an important amount
on technological watch. That means that the DGA ( Combined Arms
Agency ) looks into the fundamental research to select essential areas
in which you want to keep world top capabilities, years in advance.
If in 2045, it becomes necessary to have carbon-unobtainium composites
to make the best fighters, we have to make sure that a French firm
will be producing those at world top level. Thus, investments may have
to be made in research to acquire the knowledge, the capacity and to
maintain its commercial viability may require subsidies and export has
to bring in enough so nominal prices are high and forget about dumping.

But, achieving that independence has another feature that balances cost.
We can sell that independence to those who buy from us. Having bought
not one but two of the best multi-role ACs available a while before, the
UAE chose one over the other to carry raids on the 18th & 23rd of August
2014 in a disheveled North African country. I'm pretty sure that sticker
price matters less now on the little planes that could? If you own a Ferrari
but don't have a driving license, you're a collector not a driver ...
Our clients have an insurance included in the sale price. I wonder how much
the premium would be for the other deals? Someone should ask Israel.

And last, we have the track record for our products like Ferrari has :
Concorde, Ariane, Rafale, nukes, spatial imagery, with less than 70M pop.,
we vie for the podium or the gold where it matters most.

All of that make up the price but in the M2000H - I/TI, you'll be glad to
know that the fault rests on the neighbours almost entirely as price goes.

A- Out of 2.2 B€, one billion was for MICAs, a 500 batch plus maintenance
& infrastructures ( oversized infras. BTW that can accommodate the MICAs
for the Rafales which was wise on their part ) so the Indians paid 1,2+B€
for the upgrade itself.
B- That included a hefty ToT component with Dassault/Thales people training
HAL to do the work ( only the first 2 were upgraded in France to serve as yardsticks ) so
that further work can be done locally for good. You must guess how difficult
teaching HAL to do good work in time can be and how frustrating? Rumours
are that a high part of the TOT was for anti-depressors for our engineers. :partay:
C- That work was done on a fighter out of production. When the Indians were
offered the M2000 line in 2006, the price was about the same as the upgrade
and by now, the individual cell would come in cheaper granted proper execution.
Coming back to Ferraris, maintaining an old one in pristine condition costs more
than for a new one because parts are specially crafted and not available at the
dealership.

All of the above should be factored in and no, tax doesn't apply to products
sold outside our borders. In fact, the French AdlA pays a tax premium to the
government when they buy a Rafale. OFC it is all the same pockets but still.

So yes, French gear is a tad pricey, Louis Vuitton costs more than a generic
handbag and so on, but it delivers on performance overall as do say Apple
products. The difference is in the performance and long term.

Have a great day mate, Tay.
 
Wait, Haider mate, I'm not sure I got your meaning there ^^^.
If as I think, you're using the M2000H as a reference for French
weapons' prices, I may be able to answer. If not, ask me again
afterwards.

Yes, French weapons are a little more expensive than others, at
least as far as initial price goes. The main reason is independence.
The main reason for independence itself is Foreign Affairs, OFC.
In order to be independent, you must produce a bit of everything
sometimes spending huge amounts for small series. Even main
weapons are affected by the series effect and jets including the
Rafale suffer from it. With an initially planned production of 300
planes when US jets are bought by the thousands ( although with
rising prices they try to save by adding foreign orders for maximum output
),
being an order of 10 down means every part is amortized less.

That is alleviated because we do buy rare stuff from allies, mostly
from our American friends and the core of Europe. But it has other
cost then maintaining small plants of highly qualified people making
small batches of pricey items. In order for independence to have any
meaning, it must endure in time and we spend an important amount
on technological watch. That means that the DGA ( Combined Arms
Agency ) looks into the fundamental research to select essential areas
in which you want to keep world top capabilities, years in advance.
If in 2045, it becomes necessary to have carbon-unobtainium composites
to make the best fighters, we have to make sure that a French firm
will be producing those at world top level. Thus, investments may have
to be made in research to acquire the knowledge, the capacity and to
maintain its commercial viability may require subsidies and export has
to bring in enough so nominal prices are high and forget about dumping.

But, achieving that independence has another feature that balances cost.
We can sell that independence to those who buy from us. Having bought
not one but two of the best multi-role ACs available a while before, the
UAE chose one over the other to carry raids on the 18th & 23rd of August
2014 in a disheveled North African country. I'm pretty sure that sticker
price matters less now on the little planes that could? If you own a Ferrari
but don't have a driving license, you're a collector not a driver ...
Our clients have an insurance included in the sale price. I wonder how much
the premium would be for the other deals? Someone should ask Israel.

And last, we have the track record for our products like Ferrari has :
Concorde, Ariane, Rafale, nukes, spatial imagery, with less than 70M pop.,
we vie for the podium or the gold where it matters most.

All of that make up the price but in the M2000H - I/TI, you'll be glad to
know that the fault rests on the neighbours almost entirely as price goes.

A- Out of 2.2 B€, one billion was for MICAs, a 500 batch plus maintenance
& infrastructures ( oversized infras. BTW that can accommodate the MICAs
for the Rafales which was wise on their part ) so the Indians paid 1,2+B€
for the upgrade itself.
B- That included a hefty ToT component with Dassault/Thales people training
HAL to do the work ( only the first 2 were upgraded in France to serve as yardsticks ) so
that further work can be done locally for good. You must guess how difficult
teaching HAL to do good work in time can be and how frustrating? Rumours
are that a high part of the TOT was for anti-depressors for our engineers. :partay:
C- That work was done on a fighter out of production. When the Indians were
offered the M2000 line in 2006, the price was about the same as the upgrade
and by now, the individual cell would come in cheaper granted proper execution.
Coming back to Ferraris, maintaining an old one in pristine condition costs more
than for a new one because parts are specially crafted and not available at the
dealership.

All of the above should be factored in and no, tax doesn't apply to products
sold outside our borders. In fact, the French AdlA pays a tax premium to the
government when they buy a Rafale. OFC it is all the same pockets but still.

So yes, French gear is a tad pricey, Louis Vuitton costs more than a generic
handbag and so on, but it delivers on performance overall as do say Apple
products. The difference is in the performance and long term.

Have a great day mate, Tay.

Hi,

Thank you for wonderful insight on French weapon costs.
 
I don't think this news is true Pak has too many short range systems plus can buy from turkey as well no need French thanks but no thanks
 
Thales-Ground-Master-Thales-692x360.png


Thales GROUND Master air surveillance radar. Photo credit: Thales
Daily News
Dec 6, 2016Bilal Khan -
MEDIA OUTLET REPORTS POSSIBLE AIR DEFENCE DEAL BETWEEN PAKISTAN AND THALES
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Abhinandan Mishra of the Sunday Guardian Live has reported that the French electronics giant Thales is in talks to sell an air defence system to Pakistan.

Citing an unnamed source, Mishra writes, “an ‘in-principle’ deal was … approved between the Pakistan government and Thales to provide air defence system to Pakistan, which will be designed keeping the ‘India threat’ in mind.”

Notes & Comments:

The prospect of Pakistan dealing with Thales is plausible considering that Thales still considers Pakistan an attainable market for its solutions, hence its participation at the 2016 International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) in Karachi in November. As per IHS Jane’s, Pakistan could spend $12 billion U.S. over the next eight years on arms procurement; although small in comparison to India, the outlay can still be a lucrative revenue pool for some vendors, including the likes of Thales and MBDA.

Although Mishra’s report is not yet verified, it should be noted that Pakistan’s agreements to negotiate – i.e. ‘letters-of-understanding’ (LoUs) – have generally been, at least during IDEAS, opaque and low-key.

For example, the LoU between Pakistan Ordnance Factories and Česká Zbrojovka does not detail the exact specifics of what POF is negotiating for in terms of small arms. Likewise, the attention surrounding that LoU has been quiet in comparison to the final agreements, i.e. memoranda-of-understanding (MoU), signed by Heavy Industries Taxila and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex with Ukraine and France, respectively.

In other words, Mishra’s report is certainly plausible considering the circumstances. In terms of the nature of what Pakistan could be pursuing from Thales, that is not known.

The “India threat” element indicates that the solution would be channeled to strengthen Pakistan’s capacity for addressing external conventional threats.

Thales’ air defence product catalogue comprises of the following:

  • GROUND Master-200 and Master-400 air surveillance radars;
  • RAPID very short-range air defence (VSHORAD) systems;
  • SKYVIEW C4I system;
  • SHIELD air defence system, can be integrated with various third-party solutions;
  • STAR SHORAD and VSHORAD system;
  • CONTROL air defence management system.
Pakistan’s air defence requirements could land any one – or multiple – of those areas, hence it is difficult to determine the probable scope of its dealings with Thales. It will be worth observing exactly which one of Pakistan’s service arms is negotiating with Thales. For example, in the case of the Pakistan Army, then the focus could be on SHORAD and VSHORAD solutions, particularly mobile systems to defend armoured formations or forward bases, respectively. If it is the Pakistan Air Force, the scope could be focused on finding a successor to the Siemens MPDR. If Thales is dealing with the Pakistan Navy, then the focus could be on sensor and command and control systems for use on an existing or future surface warship. An air defence solution beyond SHORAD would necessitate a munitions vendor such as MBDA.

Post-Note:

With the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) searching for a helmet-mounted display and sight (HMD/S) system for the JF-17 Thunder, the prospect of the Thales TopOwl-F being a choice is plausible. Currently, China does not have a marketable HMD/S product (though a system for the FC-31 is under development). There are scarcely few other options available on the market at this time other than the Thales TopOwl-F and, less plausibly, the BAE Striker II. An open channel with Thales could be a factor in this respect.

Guys this is an old news belonging to 6 December of 2016.
Was there a progress in that deal?
Or were there other sources considered to purchase air defense systems for Pakistan's armed forces?

@Spring Onion @maximuswarrior @Horus @Zarvan @Windjammer @BHarwana and other Pakistani bros.
Just Internet chatter. Nothing else.
 
Bhai developing anything needs R&D---money and time. So its economically fesible to buy a thing rather than developing one.
Or-- can have JV with other firms which will be cost-effective and a better product at the end as two minds are better than one.
Well, French products are expensive too. We can have similiar but cheap products through JVs.
The tech know how is somewhat already there giving pakistan extensive missle programme, maybe they think its not feasable to invest billions in development when we can just buy the best of the shelf from china, we have a limited budget and investment into r n d is deployed on priority basis...
 
Thales wants to sell their MADRs to Pakistan. but who is going to buy them at the price they are willing to sell? Thales Radar business, and Thales International, have their strategy wrong, and their advisors continue to misguide them. With the heavy commission laden proposals, no traction will ever be achieved for the the large requirements of Pakistani AD. Who is the real contender for Pakistan low level ADR is still yet to be seen.
 
Thales wants to sell their MADRs to Pakistan. but who is going to buy them at the price they are willing to sell? Thales Radar business, and Thales International, have their strategy wrong, and their advisors continue to misguide them. With the heavy commission laden proposals, no traction will ever be achieved for the the large requirements of Pakistani AD. Who is the real contender for Pakistan low level ADR is still yet to be seen.
Is Saab (via Giraffe AMB or Giraffe 1A or 4A) any better in terms of pricing, technical capability and "convincing" decision-makers?
 
Thales wants to sell their MADRs to Pakistan. but who is going to buy them at the price they are willing to sell? Thales Radar business, and Thales International, have their strategy wrong, and their advisors continue to misguide them. With the heavy commission laden proposals, no traction will ever be achieved for the the large requirements of Pakistani AD. Who is the real contender for Pakistan low level ADR is still yet to be seen.

What you think of new Giraffe AESA radar family? Are they good enough to be deployed against what India have?
@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Screenshot_20170414-213215.png
 
Also dont think this true, this deal will be too expensive for Pakistan, who are heavily investing in infrastructure.
 
Thales wants to sell their MADRs to Pakistan. but who is going to buy them at the price they are willing to sell? Thales Radar business, and Thales International, have their strategy wrong, and their advisors continue to misguide them. With the heavy commission laden proposals, no traction will ever be achieved for the the large requirements of Pakistani AD. Who is the real contender for Pakistan low level ADR is still yet to be seen.
what is madr's and adr?
 

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