Taygibay
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- Oct 27, 2010
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Wait, Haider mate, I'm not sure I got your meaning there ^^^.
If as I think, you're using the M2000H as a reference for French
weapons' prices, I may be able to answer. If not, ask me again
afterwards.
Yes, French weapons are a little more expensive than others, at
least as far as initial price goes. The main reason is independence.
The main reason for independence itself is Foreign Affairs, OFC.
In order to be independent, you must produce a bit of everything
sometimes spending huge amounts for small series. Even main
weapons are affected by the series effect and jets including the
Rafale suffer from it. With an initially planned production of 300
planes when US jets are bought by the thousands ( although with
rising prices they try to save by adding foreign orders for maximum output ),
being an order of 10 down means every part is amortized less.
That is alleviated because we do buy rare stuff from allies, mostly
from our American friends and the core of Europe. But it has other
cost then maintaining small plants of highly qualified people making
small batches of pricey items. In order for independence to have any
meaning, it must endure in time and we spend an important amount
on technological watch. That means that the DGA ( Combined Arms
Agency ) looks into the fundamental research to select essential areas
in which you want to keep world top capabilities, years in advance.
If in 2045, it becomes necessary to have carbon-unobtainium composites
to make the best fighters, we have to make sure that a French firm
will be producing those at world top level. Thus, investments may have
to be made in research to acquire the knowledge, the capacity and to
maintain its commercial viability may require subsidies and export has
to bring in enough so nominal prices are high and forget about dumping.
But, achieving that independence has another feature that balances cost.
We can sell that independence to those who buy from us. Having bought
not one but two of the best multi-role ACs available a while before, the
UAE chose one over the other to carry raids on the 18th & 23rd of August
2014 in a disheveled North African country. I'm pretty sure that sticker
price matters less now on the little planes that could? If you own a Ferrari
but don't have a driving license, you're a collector not a driver ...
Our clients have an insurance included in the sale price. I wonder how much
the premium would be for the other deals? Someone should ask Israel.
And last, we have the track record for our products like Ferrari has :
Concorde, Ariane, Rafale, nukes, spatial imagery, with less than 70M pop.,
we vie for the podium or the gold where it matters most.
All of that make up the price but in the M2000H - I/TI, you'll be glad to
know that the fault rests on the neighbours almost entirely as price goes.
A- Out of 2.2 B€, one billion was for MICAs, a 500 batch plus maintenance
& infrastructures ( oversized infras. BTW that can accommodate the MICAs
for the Rafales which was wise on their part ) so the Indians paid 1,2+B€
for the upgrade itself.
B- That included a hefty ToT component with Dassault/Thales people training
HAL to do the work ( only the first 2 were upgraded in France to serve as yardsticks ) so
that further work can be done locally for good. You must guess how difficult
teaching HAL to do good work in time can be and how frustrating? Rumours
are that a high part of the TOT was for anti-depressors for our engineers.
C- That work was done on a fighter out of production. When the Indians were
offered the M2000 line in 2006, the price was about the same as the upgrade
and by now, the individual cell would come in cheaper granted proper execution.
Coming back to Ferraris, maintaining an old one in pristine condition costs more
than for a new one because parts are specially crafted and not available at the
dealership.
All of the above should be factored in and no, tax doesn't apply to products
sold outside our borders. In fact, the French AdlA pays a tax premium to the
government when they buy a Rafale. OFC it is all the same pockets but still.
So yes, French gear is a tad pricey, Louis Vuitton costs more than a generic
handbag and so on, but it delivers on performance overall as do say Apple
products. The difference is in the performance and long term.
Have a great day mate, Tay.
If as I think, you're using the M2000H as a reference for French
weapons' prices, I may be able to answer. If not, ask me again
afterwards.
Yes, French weapons are a little more expensive than others, at
least as far as initial price goes. The main reason is independence.
The main reason for independence itself is Foreign Affairs, OFC.
In order to be independent, you must produce a bit of everything
sometimes spending huge amounts for small series. Even main
weapons are affected by the series effect and jets including the
Rafale suffer from it. With an initially planned production of 300
planes when US jets are bought by the thousands ( although with
rising prices they try to save by adding foreign orders for maximum output ),
being an order of 10 down means every part is amortized less.
That is alleviated because we do buy rare stuff from allies, mostly
from our American friends and the core of Europe. But it has other
cost then maintaining small plants of highly qualified people making
small batches of pricey items. In order for independence to have any
meaning, it must endure in time and we spend an important amount
on technological watch. That means that the DGA ( Combined Arms
Agency ) looks into the fundamental research to select essential areas
in which you want to keep world top capabilities, years in advance.
If in 2045, it becomes necessary to have carbon-unobtainium composites
to make the best fighters, we have to make sure that a French firm
will be producing those at world top level. Thus, investments may have
to be made in research to acquire the knowledge, the capacity and to
maintain its commercial viability may require subsidies and export has
to bring in enough so nominal prices are high and forget about dumping.
But, achieving that independence has another feature that balances cost.
We can sell that independence to those who buy from us. Having bought
not one but two of the best multi-role ACs available a while before, the
UAE chose one over the other to carry raids on the 18th & 23rd of August
2014 in a disheveled North African country. I'm pretty sure that sticker
price matters less now on the little planes that could? If you own a Ferrari
but don't have a driving license, you're a collector not a driver ...
Our clients have an insurance included in the sale price. I wonder how much
the premium would be for the other deals? Someone should ask Israel.
And last, we have the track record for our products like Ferrari has :
Concorde, Ariane, Rafale, nukes, spatial imagery, with less than 70M pop.,
we vie for the podium or the gold where it matters most.
All of that make up the price but in the M2000H - I/TI, you'll be glad to
know that the fault rests on the neighbours almost entirely as price goes.
A- Out of 2.2 B€, one billion was for MICAs, a 500 batch plus maintenance
& infrastructures ( oversized infras. BTW that can accommodate the MICAs
for the Rafales which was wise on their part ) so the Indians paid 1,2+B€
for the upgrade itself.
B- That included a hefty ToT component with Dassault/Thales people training
HAL to do the work ( only the first 2 were upgraded in France to serve as yardsticks ) so
that further work can be done locally for good. You must guess how difficult
teaching HAL to do good work in time can be and how frustrating? Rumours
are that a high part of the TOT was for anti-depressors for our engineers.
C- That work was done on a fighter out of production. When the Indians were
offered the M2000 line in 2006, the price was about the same as the upgrade
and by now, the individual cell would come in cheaper granted proper execution.
Coming back to Ferraris, maintaining an old one in pristine condition costs more
than for a new one because parts are specially crafted and not available at the
dealership.
All of the above should be factored in and no, tax doesn't apply to products
sold outside our borders. In fact, the French AdlA pays a tax premium to the
government when they buy a Rafale. OFC it is all the same pockets but still.
So yes, French gear is a tad pricey, Louis Vuitton costs more than a generic
handbag and so on, but it delivers on performance overall as do say Apple
products. The difference is in the performance and long term.
Have a great day mate, Tay.
