Mass demonstrations shake Kiev as Ukrainians call for revolution

[flamer84]

Seems to be BS!
Governmental site of Russian Federation informs the following (google translate):
Brief results of the mutual trade in goods and services
Russia and Ukraine for 2012( according to the State Statistics Service of Ukraine )

Turnover of goods and services totaled U.S. $ 51.4 billion (92.8 % compared to 2011 ) .
Ukrainian exports to Russia amounted to 23.0 billion U.S. dollars ( 90.6 %).
Imports from Russia amounted to 28.4 billion U.S. dollars ( 94.7 %).
Negative balance for Ukraine is $ 5.4 billion .
Russia remains the main trading partner of Ukraine : it accounts for 29.6 % of the total foreign trade turnover of Ukraine, including 27.9 % of exports of goods and services and 31.1 % of imports of goods and services .
Обзор торговых отношений с РФ экспорт в Украина

So,my data from 2011 said 23% exports went to Russia ,it could be that in 2012 it went up to 27%,big deal.If the ukrainians sign the agreement it will be easier to access EU markets so export to the EU could go past the current 25-27 %.Anyway ,give or take 1-2% Ukrainian exports to EU-Russia are on the same level with the difference being that the EU doesn't go totalitarian mode and uses blackmail.Why is that ? Because it's civilised,a word that eludes Russia since forever.

Gas,my nightmare? Romania allready has 85% of its gas from our own national supply which will only rise with exploitation of gas reserves in the Black Sea in 2018 and Shale gas in the same time frame.We will be clear exporters when those drillings kick off.

 

[victor07]

Media

The trade data was from 2011 as for what EU will do for Ukraine ,fist they didn't threaten to ban ukrainian products like Russia,then...:

European Union - EEAS (European External Action Service) | Overview of political relations

OK, as for violence you convinced me, I agree with you.
As for European suggestions to rise, in reality to reconstruct Ukrainian economy, they are not interesting. Only general words. "Since 1991, when Ukraine gained independence, the European Union and Ukraine have developed an increasingly dynamic relationship." And what are the results? I can suppose that in reality Ukraine buys some technology in Europe to improve current production. But this cooperation does not bring significant changes in Ukraine economy.
And it seems that in future the situation will never changes. Russia will have much more benefits by investing in its own economy than in Ukrainian in case of so called Eurointegration.
And again your words "they didn't threaten to ban ukrainian products like Russia". Try to focus again and read this thread from the beginning. I have repeated again and again and again: it is not a ban for Ukrainian products, it is only putting them on the same level as products from other countries, no preferences for products Made in Ukraine. Just normal trade rules. Please stop that stupid phraseology.

 

[flamer84]

Again that stupid phraseology? Are you sick or something?
Then try to compare Russian economy with the economy of the whole Europe. And then reduce the level of Russian-Ukrainian trade for example to the level of British-Ukrainian or French-Ukrainian, or Spanish-Ukrainian trade. And is Europe ready just to compensate the losses for Ukrainian economy? Just let's forget about investments.
That seems to be epic fail for Ukraine.

Don't be bothered by the truth.It's normal for bigger trade with Russia than individual EU countries (like France) because of the extensive ukraino-russian border.There are no prefernces for products "made in Ukraine" they have their market in Russia and just as you can trade with France you can do so with Ukraine.
The problem with Russia is that whenever there are disagreements between goverments they immediately result to trade war unlike civilised Europe,usually with bogus excuses:ban on ukrainian meat,ban on moldavian wines,ban on lithuanian dary products,ban on finnish milk and the list can go on.
The first and biggest problem of Ukraine is its political elites which are corrupt to the bone.EU can at least manage a part of this problem by forcing stricter laws,independence of justice system,etc,like they did in Romania with mixed results but at least some results,which are getting better every day.The russians are happy to let this problem fester to keep Ukraine weak and poor.Let's face it,Ukraine is in this situation because of its politicians,i mean they had an 90 billion $ gdp in 1990 and in 2013 175 billion $ with a 45 million population.By comparison,one of the most poor countries in the EU and with corruption problems ,Romania had a 45 billion $ GDP in 1990 with 185 billion in 2013(20 mil population),so Ukraine barely doubled its gdp while Romania increased over 4 times(and as i've said we're very corrupt to).Something is terrible wrong in Ukraine !
With that population,when it will be received in the EU ,Ukraine will probably be given some 40-50 billion euros in development funds.Without these money Ukraine will never have a decent infrastructure because beside trade Russia will never give free money.Without a decent infrastructure you can't have a decent economy.On that level even the current dimwitted romanian politivcians got the point and started to frantically build motor ways to connect the country,partially with EU or chinese money.Poor countries can't afford such important projects with budget money only.
If Ukraine joins EU they will have EU investments because of their cheap labour.If Ukraine joins Russia it will have a momentary respite with the exports but condemns herself to poverty and underdevelopment.It will barely survive but not recover like a paralysed man on life support.

 

[rmi5]

A disaster for Ukraine began after the severance of economic ties with Russia. Shipbuilding industry collapsed. Aircraft and aircraft engines manufacturing rests only on Russian orders. And what are real suggestions from Europe which can improve the situation? Do you know them? All other words about camps are nothing than bla-bla-bla.

I am very well aware of what you said. Ukrainian cannot remain dependent on Russia if they want a real economic progress. As far as I know, in eastern Ukraine, which is its industrial part, factories are dependent on their trade with Russia. But the problem is their product cannot compete in the world trade based on quality and price. Ukraine needs to sign a trade treaty with Europe in which they gradually start their free trade and they need to ask europeans to invest in their industries to make them competitive. There is no other way to overcome their economic problems.

 

[vostok]

I am very well aware of what you said. Ukrainian cannot remain dependent on Russia if they want a real economic progress. As far as I know, in eastern Ukraine, which is its industrial part, factories are dependent on their trade with Russia. But the problem is their product cannot compete in the world trade based on quality and price. Ukraine needs to sign a trade treaty with Europe in which they gradually start their free trade and they need to ask europeans to invest in their industries to make them competitive. There is no other way to overcome their economic problems.

You really think that the West will invest in Ukrainian enterprises to make them competitive? Does it make any sense? It's like just give part of their own funds, slowing their growth. Russia - the only hope for the Ukrainian economy. Russia has created a Ukrainian industry and it is single in the world is interested in the development and modernization of Ukrainian enterprises.

 

[rmi5]

You really think that the West will invest in Ukrainian enterprises to make them competitive? Does it make any sense? It's like just give part of their own funds, slowing their growth. Russia - the only hope for the Ukrainian economy. Russia has created a Ukrainian industry and it is single in the world is interested in the development and modernization of Ukrainian enterprises.

You are heavily pro Russian, and dreaming for another USSR to be formed. so it is not surprising to hear this from you. I am sure Ukraine will receive much more money, and investment from the west if they decide to abandon the Russian camp. you can look at North korea, and South Korea or in older times, East and West Germany. You can obviously see how much is the difference between the foreign investments in West supported countries and Russian supported ones.

 

[flamer84]

You are heavily pro Russian, and dreaming for another USSR to be formed. so it is not surprising to hear this from you. I am sure Ukraine will receive much more money, and investment from the west if they decide to abandon the Russian camp. you can look at North korea, and South Korea or in older times, East and West Germany. You can obviously see how much is the difference between the foreign investments in West supported countries and Russian supported ones.

Look at all the former soviet republics who are still russian satellites.Dirt poor,maybe with the exception of Kazahstan but they have oil/gas.

Russia had 23 years to do something for Ukraine.Did they do something ? No.Ukraine is collapsing economically but when it tried to change something for the better the russians come charging.

I am almost sure vostok is paid for propaganda,no one can live in Ukraine for the past 23 years and not notice how towing the russian line made Ukraine a dead end.Either that or he's plain stupid.

In the absurd case that the EU won't throw money at the Ukraine they still have to make a change aon the reasoning:"I've tried plan A for 23 years and it's a fiasco,let's go for plan B,how much worse can it get?"

They are very indoctrinated,i was in Moldova a few days ago and spoke with some pro russian moldovans like vostok ,the general ideea was:"You romanians want to unite with us just to plunder us,to steal from us with the EU"...My jaw dropped,i was like :"WTF should we steal for you,you're at 2k per capita,there's nothing here,you're practically Congo"...but there's no reasoning with soviet mentality.

 

[rmi5]

Look at all the former soviet republics who are still russian satellites.Dirt poor,maybe with the exception of Kazahstan but they have oil/gas.

Russia had 23 years to do something for Ukraine.Did they do something ? No.Ukraine is collapsing economically but when it tried to change something for the better the russians come charging.

I am almost sure vostok is paid for propaganda,no one can live in Ukraine for the past 23 years and not notice how towing the russian line made Ukraine a dead end.Either that or he's plain stupid.

In the absurd case that the EU won't throw money at the Ukraine they still have to make a change aon the reasoning:"I've tried plan A for 23 years and it's a fiasco,let's go for plan B,how much worse can it get?"

Agree
The economical situation after getting close to EU cannot get worse than their current situation. About Vostok, I guess he is from russian ethnicity, and maybe ethnicity is more important for him than the country and his nationality. In addition, based on my previous discussions with him, he is a hardcore (communist/socialist ) and dreaming for another USSR, so if Ukraine gets close to west, all of his dreams will collapse in his eyes. Although, I believe that his dreams collapsed two decades ago for good.

 

[victor07]

1. Don't be bothered by the truth.It's normal for bigger trade with Russia than individual EU countries (like France) because of the extensive ukraino-russian border.
2. There are no prefernces for products "made in Ukraine" they have their market in Russia and just as you can trade with France you can do so with Ukraine.
3. The problem with Russia is that whenever there are disagreements between goverments they immediately result to trade war unlike civilised Europe,usually with bogus excuses:ban on ukrainian meat,ban on moldavian wines,ban on lithuanian dary products,ban on finnish milk and the list can go on.
4. The first and biggest problem of Ukraine is its political elites which are corrupt to the bone.EU can at least manage a part of this problem by forcing stricter laws,independence of justice system,etc,like they did in Romania with mixed results but at least some results,which are getting better every day.
5. The russians are happy to let this problem fester to keep Ukraine weak and poor.
6. Let's face it,Ukraine is in this situation because of its politicians,i mean they had an 90 billion $ gdp in 1990 and in 2013 175 billion $ with a 45 million population.By comparison,one of the most poor countries in the EU and with corruption problems ,Romania had a 45 billion $ GDP in 1990 with 185 billion in 2013(20 mil population),so Ukraine barely doubled its gdp while Romania increased over 4 times(and as i've said we're very corrupt to).Something is terrible wrong in Ukraine !
7. With that population,when it will be received in the EU ,Ukraine will probably be given some 40-50 billion euros in development funds.Without these money Ukraine will never have a decent infrastructure because beside trade Russia will never give free money.Without a decent infrastructure you can't have a decent economy.On that level even the current dimwitted romanian politivcians got the point and started to frantically build motor ways to connect the country,partially with EU or chinese money.Poor countries can't afford such important projects with budget money only.
8. If Ukraine joins EU they will have EU investments because of their cheap labour.
9. If Ukraine joins Russia it will have a momentary respite with the exports but condemns herself to poverty and underdevelopment.It will barely survive but not recover like a paralysed man on life support.

Epic amount of words.
1. Wrong. Ukrainian export structure to Russia: machine building 39,0%, metallurgy 20,6%, chemical industry 11,7%, food 10,6% (in 2012). Extensive borders here are insufficient.
2. Wrong. Ukrainian import currently has no import duties in Russia. They will be immediately set after Eurointegration of Ukraine.
Россия может ввести импортные пошлины на товары из Украины – советник Путина
3. In such a cases more civilized Europe and USA usually use sanctions and direct bombing.
4. Direct proposal to Ukraine to lose its sovereignty. It is called occupation regime.
5. Complete BS.
6. Do not try to say this to Ukrainians. The republic with Hi-Tech military industrial complex in 80s, the republic which is still able to develop and produce aircrafts never agree to descend to the level of the mostly agricultural country.
7. Your own dreams. Head of the EU embassy in Kiev recently says that Ukraine will get nothing. He says that Ukrainian problems Ukraine must solve herself.
Глава дипмиссии ЕС в Киеве удручен мизерными параметрами собственных инвестиций Украины в свою экономику за последние 10 лет
8. Cheap labor? Do not say it to Ukrainians.
9. Complete BS. Russian direct investments in Ukraine in 2012 were $185 mln in comparison Belorussia has got $6.7 bln.
Украина вне Союза: получает инвестиций вдвое меньше Белоруссии, Запад выводит капиталы
Since you have no something interesting let´s finish.

 

[flamer84]

Epic amount of words.

6. Do not try to say this to Ukrainians. The republic with Hi-Tech military industrial complex in 80s, the republic which is still able to develop and produce aircrafts never agree to descend to the level of the mostly agricultural country.

You embarass yourself.Well,that "agricultural country" is sky rocketing Ukraine on GDP numbers and the gap widens.We go up,they tank in poverty.So much good it did to them to be close to Russia.

Agreed,let's finish,i gave up listening to commie propaganda in 1989.

 

[rmi5]

Well,that "agricultural country" is sky rocketing Ukraine on GDP numbers and the gap widens.We go up,they tank in poverty.So much good it did to them to be close to Russia.
Agreed,let's finish,i gave up listening to co

I always have a motto:
"Never expect or try to have a logical debate with two kind of people: 1. Religious extremists and islamists in particular 2. Communists, ..."

 

[victor07]

I am very well aware of what you said. Ukrainian cannot remain dependent on Russia if they want a real economic progress. As far as I know, in eastern Ukraine, which is its industrial part, factories are dependent on their trade with Russia. 1. But the problem is their product cannot compete in the world trade based on quality and price. Ukraine needs to sign a trade treaty with Europe in which they gradually start their free trade and 2. they need to ask europeans to invest in their industries to make them competitive. There is no other way to overcome their economic problems.

1. That is something new for me. As I know Russia takes third or second place in the world arms Market in recent 10 years. And Ukraine was a part, and I´d say one of the best parts of Soviet military industrial complex.
2. Seems to be only dreams. There were no promises, only roundabout.

 

[rmi5]

1. That is something new for me. As I know Russia takes third or second place in the world arms Market in recent 10 years. And Ukraine was a part, and I´d say one of the best parts of Soviet military industrial complex.
2. Seems to be only dreams. There were no promises, only roundabout.

1. Which countries have been importing Russian arms? China, Iran, North Korea. can they import arms from west? No. Have they any other option rather importing from Russia? No. So, they imported arms.
2. I brought you South/North Korea, and West/East Germany as examples. these cases are real and not propaganda. West can also achieve her interests by investing in Ukraine. So why do you expect them not to invest in Ukraine?

 

[flamer84]

2. I brought you South/North Korea, and West/East Germany as examples. these cases are real and not propaganda. West can also achieve her interests by investing in Ukraine. So why do you expect them not to invest in Ukraine?

He believes that cheap labour is an insult when in fact in current day Europe is an advantage because european investment will come with new technology,R&D ,new assembly lines in Ukraine,etc,ergo new jobs and money.The chinese weren't that insulted when westerners flooded China to manufacture their products.

Pride-"The goat with mange keeps her tail up high."

 

[rmi5]

He believes that cheap labour is an insult when in fact in current day Europe is an advantage because european investment will come with new technology,R&D ,new assembly lines in Ukraine,etc,ergo new jobs and money.The chinese weren't that insulted when westerners flooded China to manufacture their products.

Pride-"The goat with mange keeps her tail up high."

Actually, It is not an insult, even it is an advantage for fast progress, and development.