Mass demonstrations shake Kiev as Ukrainians call for revolution

[victor07]

Agree. But it is hard for me to accept that Ukrainians be willing to join Russian camp, since their last joint camp(USSR) was a disaster for them. there maybe some Russian Ukrainians who feel some bondings with Russians in Russia but It does not necessarily mean that they prefer the Russian government camp.

A disaster for Ukraine began after the severance of economic ties with Russia. Shipbuilding industry collapsed. Aircraft and aircraft engines manufacturing rests only on Russian orders. And what are real suggestions from Europe which can improve the situation? Do you know them? All other words about camps are nothing than bla-bla-bla.

 

[vostok]

Agree. But it is hard for me to accept that Ukrainians be willing to join Russian camp, since their last joint camp(USSR) was a disaster for them. there maybe some Russian Ukrainians who feel some bondings with Russians in Russia but It does not necessarily mean that they prefer the Russian government camp.

Ukraine as a state was first created in the framework of the USSR. In this case, in one republic was connected completely different historical and cultural areas.
South and East of Ukraine - New Russia (until 1917). Russian populated. Nearly 100% of Russian-speaking region. Orthodox.
Central Ukraine - Little Russia (until 1917). Actually Ukraine. Orthodox, 50/50 Russian and Ukrainian language.
Western Ukraine - Galicia (until 1939). Eastern Rite Catholics, 95% of the Ukrainian language (local dialect, hardly understood by the rest of the country).
Here is a map of voices for Yanukovich in 2010. clear example

 

[victor07]

Russia bans two Ukraine meat firms, as meat war threatens

A very interesting quote in above article, it's copy protected so i won't go through the hassle of pasting it, but anyone can read it by clicking above link, it's from Ukraine Minister of Agriculture and Food and downright talks about Russian blackmail.

--------------------------------------


Just a few nuggets of truth for our Russian poser who thinks he is smarter then everyone.

Excuse me, one more question. BTW can you explain me why Russia must to buy meet or other goods exactly in Ukraine and not in Australia or in Argentina? From your or European point of view.

 

[flamer84]

Excuse me, one more question. BTW can you explain me why Russia must to buy meet or other goods exactly in Ukraine and not in Australia or in Argentina? From your or European point of view.

It doesn't have to but when you keep buying from them, and,suddenly,when some things don't go on Russia's favour,you threaten not to buy anymore,that's an obvious blackmail.

 

[flamer84]

You are reported.

USA have pain in the *** becouse Russia is like pheonix.
Like Mitt Romney said "Russia is our n1 geopolitical foe".This is not EU vs Russia it is USA VS RUSSIA.

This EU steps on Ukraine only makes alot of Serbs angry and anti EU,becouse Serbs in last 13 years work hard to enter Union,but look EU dont need hardworking nations but only respects order from D.C.

When you see that Turkey cannot enter EU,and Turkey is economical and military middle power but EU inssist for Ukraine to join becouse they get order from Washington to stop Russian geopolitical spree: Syria,Iran,Snowden,Armenia in Euroasia union,Egypt,selling arms again to South American countries.

Sry my friend but this is BS for several reasons:

1.Ukraine would have not joined the EU if it had signed at Vilnius.It was just an association agreement meaning that EU integration was at least 10-15 years away,if ever.

2."Russian geopolitical sphere?" Is Ukraine meant to be a perpetual satellite in the soviet gulag? **** that !! Maybe the ukrainians want an european future for their children.

 

[victor07]

It doesn't have to but when you keep buying from them, and,suddenly,when some things don't go on Russia's favour,you threaten not to buy anymore,that's an obvious blackmail.

Exactly the same conditions may appear in the Russian-Ukrainian trade. Russia must first of all support its ALLIES. It is the same approach that USA and Europe use. So in the case of Ukrainian integration Europe must buy Ukrainian food, Ukrainian aircrafts, must invest in Ukrainian industry which include shipbuilding, electronics, rocket building, etc. including DIRECT investments. And then place orders in Ukrainian enterprises. Russia is interested in such investments as it needs right now to modernize its air force and navy. I do not see the need for all this stuff in Europe. So in case of integration with Europe Ukraine will get nothing or very little in comparison with losses in trade with Russia.

 

[DejanSRB]

Sry my friend but this is BS for several reasons:

1.Ukraine would have not joined the EU if it had signed at Vilnius.It was just an association agreement meaning that EU integration was at least 10-15 years away,if ever.

2."Russian geopolitical sphere?" Is Ukraine meant to be a perpetual satellite in the soviet gulag? **** that !! Maybe the ukrainians want an european future for their children.

No need to apologize,sincerity makes convesation better.

1.Ukraine was a part of Russia for 90% of its history,it is like to chop Craiova or Sumadija from Romania/Serbia and say"Maybe they want to be part of African union/Euroasian/51 US republic.
That doesnt work.
Ukraine was manipulated in chess game between one side of global triangle(China-Russia-US),US-Russia,like Iran,Syria,Georgia,Serbia in '90s.But culturaly they are part of RussoSlavic civilization.
2.What European future for children?Look at out neighboors Bulgaria,they are real example who one poor country,legally unsettled and poor in economics do in EU.They have population of 9 mln in 1989 today thay have 6 million with 1 million Turkish citizens.And today right wing party flourish in Bulgaria.
My family was a part of "Fifth October" and what we get?13 years of lies,corruption,doomed battle on Kosovo and all of that backed by Pro European gov.

 

[victor07]

Sry my friend but this is BS for several reasons:

1.Ukraine would have not joined the EU if it had signed at Vilnius.It was just an association agreement meaning that EU integration was at least 10-15 years away,if ever.

2."Russian geopolitical sphere?" Is Ukraine meant to be a perpetual satellite in the soviet gulag? **** that !! Maybe the ukrainians want an european future for their children.

Bla-bla-bla again. Try to answer my previous question. Have you other arguments then "****"?

BTW The true face of supporters of Euro integration in Kiev

 

[flamer84]

Bla-bla-bla again. Try to answer my previous question. Have you other arguments then "****"?

BTW The true face of supporters of Euro integration in Kiev

Oh,now you're upset that people are fighting back after Yanuchovich's goons went full rage mode on peacefull protestors friday night ? You expect them to get beaten up forever without retaliating.Tough luck for you,they won't.In case you've missed it check out all the videos/photos with innocent journalists/students savagely beaten.

Exactly the same conditions may appear in the Russian-Ukrainian trade. Russia must first of all support its ALLIES. It is the same approach that USA and Europe use. So in the case of Ukrainian integration Europe must buy Ukrainian food, Ukrainian aircrafts, must invest in Ukrainian industry which include shipbuilding, electronics, rocket building, etc. including DIRECT investments. And then place orders in Ukrainian enterprises. Russia is interested in such investments as it needs right now to modernize its air force and navy. I do not see the need for all this stuff in Europe. So in case of integration with Europe Ukraine will get nothing or very little in comparison with losses in trade with Russia.

So,why are doing business with Germany ,France then ? Limit yourself to Belarus and Ukraine.Spare me the propaganda,you're buying ukrainian products because you need them but you're willing to drop them just out of spite.It's not like those products don't have a market in Russia.

Oh,did i mention the gas blackmail and Russia's position "we will cut gas this winter if you don't join us "?

No need to apologize,sincerity makes convesation better.

1.Ukraine was a part of Russia for 90% of its history,it is like to chop Craiova or Sumadija from Romania/Serbia and say"Maybe they want to be part of African union/Euroasian/51 US republic.
That doesnt work.
Ukraine was manipulated in chess game between one side of global triangle(China-Russia-US),US-Russia,like Iran,Syria,Georgia,Serbia in '90s.But culturaly they are part of RussoSlavic civilization.
2.What European future for children?Look at out neighboors Bulgaria,they are real example who one poor country,legally unsettled and poor in economics do in EU.They have population of 9 mln in 1989 today thay have 6 million with 1 million Turkish citizens.And today right wing party flourish in Bulgaria.
My family was a part of "Fifth October" and what we get?13 years of lies,corruption,doomed battle on Kosovo and all of that backed by Pro European gov.

No such thing as part of Russia.Ukraine is an independent country belonging to ukrainians.It's up to the ukrainians to decide what they want for their country and that's why a referendum is need it.Why not settle it democratically ? Because the soviets will loose.

Oh,and Romania and Bulgaria's poverty are their fault to.The EU gave my country 20 billion euros since 2007 until now in development money .You know how much we managed to absorb ?? 7% of them just 7%,Bulgaria is the same.Poland managed to absorb 80% of development money from the EU and they are doing better.Finally Romania is growing again because the new goverment reached 25% absorbtion of EU money this year,we have some 30 billion euro at our disposal for the next 6 years.

So the EU is willing to help you on certain aspects but we have to be capable of helping ourselves or as we say in romanian:

"Dumnezeu iti da,dar nu-ti baga-n traista"...."God gives things to you but he doesn't put them in your bag himself"

 

[DejanSRB]

No such thing as part of Russia.Ukraine is an independent country belonging to ukrainians.It's up to the ukrainians to decide what they want for their country and that's why a referendum is need it.Why not settle it democratically ? Because the soviets will loose.

Oh,and Romania and Bulgaria's poverty are their fault to.The EU gave my country 20 billion euros since 2007 until now in development money .You know how much we managed to absorb ?? 7% of them just 7%,Bulgaria is the same.Poland managed to absorb 80% of development money from the EU and they are doing better.Finally Romania is growing again because the new goverment reached 25% absorbtion of EU money this year,we have some 30 billion euro at our disposal for the next 6 years.

So the EU is willing to help you on certain aspects but we have to be capable of helping ourselves or as we say in romanian:

"Dumnezeu iti da,dar nu-ti baga-n traista"...."God gives things to you but he doesn't put them in your bag himself"

Ok,I must agree with you on Romania,Poland question,but in Serbian case it is different.
West did a 100 billion damage in '99 and give us 10 billion(circa) in last 13 years.

But when we talk about association with EU and Ukraine.EU hundread times repeat minimal requiments for join EU,and Ukraine doesnt satisfies no one of them.But Ukraine is important for geopolitcal reasons.

And you must understand,that Ukraine is on the edge of bankruptcy,and if thay refuse Russian deal,that would be economical end for Ukraine.
Biggest trading partner of Ukraine is Russia,more then 50% products in Ukraine go in Russian market if Russia say "NO you are with us or against",it will be END litteraly.Millions would be unemployment and remember EU crisis and Cyprus crisis couple months ago,when EU dont have money to help Cyprus and that Russia offer to help.IF EU now dont have money to help little Cyprus,how they will help to Ukraine with 50 million people?
EU would give one billion annualy to Ukraine but Ukraine will lose annualy near 20 billion.It's suicide.Not a question between Russian "neoimperialism" or "democracy choice of Ukraine people"

 

[flamer84]

Ok,I must agree with you on Romania,Poland question,but in Serbian case it is different.
West did a 100 billion damage in '99 and give us 10 billion(circa) in last 13 years.

But when we talk about association with EU and Ukraine.EU hundread times repeat minimal requiments for join EU,and Ukraine doesnt satisfies no one of them.But Ukraine is important for geopolitcal reasons.

And you must understand,that Ukraine is on the edge of bankruptcy,and if thay refuse Russian deal,that would be economical end for Ukraine.
Biggest trading partner of Ukraine is Russia,more then 50% products in Ukraine go in Russian market if Russia say "NO you are with us or against",it will be END litteraly.Millions would be unemployment and remember EU crisis and Cyprus crisis couple months ago,when EU dont have money to help Cyprus and that Russia offer to help.IF EU now dont have money to help little Cyprus,how they will help to Ukraine with 50 million people?
EU would give one billion annualy to Ukraine but Ukraine will lose annualy near 20 billion.It's suicide.Not a question between Russian "neoimperialism" or "democracy choice of Ukraine people"

Wrong again my friend.Ukrainian exports :

EU-26.6 %
Russia-23.7 %

No such thing as 50% to Russia,EU is practically Ukraine's biggest trade partner but the EU is not so barbaric as Russia to blackmail Ukraine.On a Russia vs EU comparison Ukraine will loose more if the EU cuts traid like Russia threatened but the europeans don't use primitive blackmail like the bolsheviks.

EU had money for Cyprus,which they gave in the end(Russia didn't) but they wanted few conditions met so that those money won't be given in vain.

 

[DejanSRB]

Yeah but it is not a same when you import metallurgy products and when you import oranges.
Biggest Ukraine exporter is EU and biggest importer is Russia.Without oranges Ukraine will eat apples but without help in metallurgy sector millions would be fired.

Read your romanian "Deutsche Welle",and you will probably find a article called "Ukraine splitted in two same sized fronts Russophiles and Euro fanatics"something like that,and read how much billions will Ukraine lose from UKR/Russian split,even Germans admit that.

You use terms like bolsheviks and soviets but I fully understand you russophobia,it is like our anti american segment.But US and Russia will dont get a headache from our "symphaty" but we will.

 

[victor07]

Oh,now you're upset that people are fighting back after Yanuchovich's goons went full rage mode on peacefull protestors friday night ? You expect them to get beaten up forever without retaliating.Tough luck for you,they won't.In case you've missed it check out all the videos/photos with innocent journalists/students savagely beaten.

So,why are doing business with Germany ,France then ? Limit yourself to Belarus and Ukraine.Spare me the propaganda,you're buying ukrainian products because you need them but you're willing to drop them just out of spite.It's not like those products don't have a market in Russia.

Oh,did i mention the gas blackmail and Russia's position "we will cut gas this winter if you don't join us "?

1. Photos please.
2. Try to focus and answer my direct question. What are the European suggestions to Ukraine which lead to resurrection of Ukrainian national economy: investments, orders, etc.?
As for Russia it can definitely produce all products which are now imported from Ukraine except some kinds of aircraft engines. But in a couple of years Russia will have appropriate own production.
What Ukraine will have with Russia in case of Eurointegration is exactly the same as Russia is currently have with France, Germany, etc. No problem with this.
2. Oh no, gas is probably your nightmare. You are wrong.

Some quotes from Ukrainian local media (google translate used)
In Simferopol, in front of the Supreme Council of Crimea rally against attempts to violent overthrow of the current government. The protesters threatened to demand the return of the Crimea in the Russian Federation, if Ukraine will be managed by neo-nazis.
В Симферополе на митинге пригрозили потребовать возвращения Крыма России | ForPost Севастополь Новости

On the main flagpole of Ukrainian city Shostka in Sumy region on Friday hung the flag of the Russian Federation.
 ВЗГЛЯД / Флаг России подняли в украинском городе

Wrong again my friend.Ukrainian exports :

EU-26.6 %
Russia-23.7 %

For which year?

 

[victor07]

Wrong again my friend.Ukrainian exports :
EU-26.6 %
Russia-23.7 %

Seems to be BS!
Governmental site of Russian Federation informs the following (google translate):
Brief results of the mutual trade in goods and services
Russia and Ukraine for 2012( according to the State Statistics Service of Ukraine )

Turnover of goods and services totaled U.S. $ 51.4 billion (92.8 % compared to 2011 ) .
Ukrainian exports to Russia amounted to 23.0 billion U.S. dollars ( 90.6 %).
Imports from Russia amounted to 28.4 billion U.S. dollars ( 94.7 %).
Negative balance for Ukraine is $ 5.4 billion .
Russia remains the main trading partner of Ukraine : it accounts for 29.6 % of the total foreign trade turnover of Ukraine, including 27.9 % of exports of goods and services and 31.1 % of imports of goods and services .
Обзор торговых отношений с РФ экспорт в Украина

 

[flamer84]

1. Photos please.
2. Try to focus and answer my direct question. What are the European suggestions to Ukraine which lead to resurrection of Ukrainian national economy: investments, orders, etc.?
As for Russia it can definitely produce all products which are now imported from Ukraine except some kinds of aircraft engines. But in a couple of years Russia will have appropriate own production.
What Ukraine will have with Russia in case of Eurointegration is exactly the same as Russia is currently have with France, Germany, etc. No problem with this.
2. Oh no, gas is probably your nightmare. You are wrong.

Some quotes from Ukrainian local media (google translate used)
In Simferopol, in front of the Supreme Council of Crimea rally against attempts to violent overthrow of the current government. The protesters threatened to demand the return of the Crimea in the Russian Federation, if Ukraine will be managed by neo-nazis.
В Симферополе на митинге пригрозили потребовать возвращения Крыма России | ForPost Севастополь Новости

On the main flagpole of Ukrainian city Shostka in Sumy region on Friday hung the flag of the Russian Federation.
ВЗГЛЯД / Флаг России подняли в украинском городе



For which year?

The trade data was from 2011 as for what EU will do for Ukraine ,fist they didn't threaten to ban ukrainian products like Russia,then...:

European Union - EEAS (European External Action Service) | Overview of political relations