Make In India - Fighter Jet musings - News, Developments, Updates - F16,F18, Gripen, Any other

[A.P. Richelieu]

Analysts: India won't ink a single-engine fighter deal before 2019

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/analysts-india-wont-ink-a-single-engine-fighter-deal-before-2019


NEW DELHI — India's single-engine fighter program, worth $12 billion, is unlikely to be "decided before 2019," analysts and officials say, even as the Indian Air Force has decided to hold flight tests of Lockheed's F-16 Block 70 and Sweden's Gripen-E, the two aircraft competing in the program.

Restricted expressions of interests were sent through Indian embassies to "some overseas participants" to take part in the program in October last year to elicit responses to produce single-engine fighter aircraft in India. Lockheed Martin offered to shift the assembly line of its F-16 Block 70, and Sweden offered to build the Gripen-E aircraft in India with technology transfer.

The F-16 fighter aircraft did not come up for discussion during last month's summit talks on June 26 between Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and U.S. President Donald Trump in Washington, said a Ministry of Defence official without commenting on the outcome of the talks.

However, analysts and officials are skeptical whether the program would come to an early decision. Some analysts even say the F-16 will never be bought by the Indian Air Force, or IAF.



"There isn't now even the slightest IAF interest in the F-16 Block 70 or any other variant," said Bharat Karnad, professor of national security studies at Centre for Policy Research.

When asked about the outcome of the flight trials the IAF will conduct, Karnad said, "Nothing, it will take time and delay any decision to beyond the 2019 election. Thereafter, the medium multirole combat aircraft, or MMRCA, metrics will still apply, and the F-16 will be rejected."

The F-16 and Gripen were both rejected after flight trials during the 2007 MMRCA tender, which was finally scrapped in 2014, leading to the outright purchase of France's Rafale fighter aircraft worth $8.8 billion that was inked last year.

An IAF official said that this time, only limited flight trials of the F-16 and Gripen will take place, which will be restricted to the upgraded components that were not in the 2007 MMRCA tender.


Defense News
Aero India: New single-engine fighters to be star attractions
Daljit Singh, a retired IAF air marshal and defense analyst said, "The F-16 and Gripen fielded during the MMRCA selection did not have all the systems that the IAF would look for in single-engine fighters. AESA radars and EW systems have recently been integrated on the F-16 Block 70 and Gripen E, and they would be required to be evaluated."

"The time for evaluation would be lesser than the previous evaluation, as only two fighters would be evaluated, and the majority of the capabilities have already been tested," Singh added.

However, analysts and officials are unanimous in their view that no decision on the program is likely immediately. In addition, the program is to be built in a newly announced Strategic Partners policy, which was notified in June.

"The chances of seeing any program under this SP program in the near future are slim til the MoD sorts out key issues relating to IP, especially under an unfavorable 49 percent ownership limit for foreign vendors," said Pushan Das, a defense analyst with Observer Research Foundation.

Another IAF official said, "There could be delays based on IAF asking for more and thereby delays due to integration testing, etc."

"In my opinion, in the current scenario with home-grown light combat aircraft, or LCA, getting produced and with LCA Mark-1A and an order of 83 cleared by the government already, I do not foresee an immediate decision on any other single-engine fighter aircraft soon," the IAF official added.

 

[Sliver]

"In my opinion, in the current scenario with home-grown light combat aircraft, or LCA, getting produced and with LCA Mark-1A and an order of 83 cleared by the government already, I do not foresee an immediate decision on any other single-engine fighter aircraft soon," the IAF official added.

wasn't interest for f-16 (or other single engined fighters) was shown "despite" the home grown fighter?

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

wasn't interest for f-16 (or other single engined fighters) was shown "despite" the home grown fighter?

Already when the "single engine" RFI was sent out, the plan said decision in 2021,
with deliveries starting a few years later.
There are several possible explanations for this.
My favourite is that IAF sees it as pointless to make the decision
until they can get deliveries of the plane they really want.
First delivery of Gripen E is planned in 2019.
FOC a few years later, and IAF is adapting its schedule.

 

[surya kiran]

wasn't interest for f-16 (or other single engined fighters) was shown "despite" the home grown fighter?

The IAF is not going to move its butt on the F-16 or whatever till the Rafales are approved in numbers. The Tejas is on track. One more production line will come online in the next 3 years or so.

People do not seem to understand the size of the IAF. There is a need to replace and increase the squadron size of almost 1000 fighters over the next 15 years. If the F-16 does happen it will be to increase squadron numbers not to replace squadron numbers.

 

[Sliver]

increase the squadron size of almost 1000 fighters over the next 15 years

any links to substantiate this? or is this just what you feel like the numbers should be?

 

[surya kiran]

any links to substantiate this? or is this just what you feel like the numbers should be?

There are currently following aircraft which will be replaced

Jaguars - 130
Mig 21 - 245
Mig 27 - 66
Mig 29 - 66
Mirage 2000 - 45

This is just the current size, needing replacements, out of 32 squadrons. Typical IAF squadron has 18 +2. Sanctioned strength is 42 (as of date). So another 200 fighters just for the sanctioned strength.

130+200+245+66+66+45 = 752 fighters will be replaced or added over the next 15 years, just for reaching sanctioned squadron strength. This does not include trainers or any other aircraft. This also does not include the IN air wings, off shore and ac based.

So that would be close to 850 fighters at a minimum, at current squadron sanction levels.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

There are currently following aircraft which will be replaced

Jaguars - 130
Mig 21 - 245
Mig 27 - 66
Mig 29 - 66
Mirage 2000 - 45

This is just the current size, needing replacements, out of 32 squadrons. Typical IAF squadron has 18 +2. Sanctioned strength is 42 (as of date). So another 200 fighters just for the sanctioned strength.

130+200+245+66+66+45 = 752 fighters will be replaced or added over the next 15 years, just for reaching sanctioned squadron strength. This does not include trainers or any other aircraft. This also does not include the IN air wings, off shore and ac based.

So that would be close to 850 fighters at a minimum, at current squadron sanction levels.

Good post buddy, thanks.

 

[Taygibay]

So that would be close to 850 fighters at a minimum, at current squadron sanction levels.

I'll double WCE's approval with this caveat, Surya my good mate
that by the end of these replacements, India will likely have dis-
covered as most modern AFs that one on one renewal isn't always
practical or even feasible economically nor necessary if tech has
multiplied the efficiency of the incoming aircrafts.
The Rafale is right along those avenues.

The solution for a 1 on 1 replacement was to have a low cost op-
tion for the lower tier at least, with as few costly imported parts
as possible, a simple cheap workhorse . . .

That's where the feet dragging of the last 30 years takes a toll &
fully shows its drawbacks. Forget the original 1995 induction and
even with the post-1998 local design reorientation and picture the
initial IAF order in 2005 entering production right there and then.

Output a squadron a year as DM Parrikar asked not HAL's 16 and
you'd have a dozen low cost squadrons by now. Which subtracted
from 752 gives us 512.
I'd take out the 36 Rafales to make it 476 but who knows if in such
an ideal scenario the MMRCA would have even taken place at all?

Anyhow, best of days to both, Tay.

​

 

[Incog_nito]

I think Gripen might be as India had already refused F-16s because PAF pilots have a lot of experience on it. Moreover, I think F-18s for IN would work well with a new carreir tech provided by USA.

All the fuss in India about F-16s will gonna turn towards F-35A and F-35B/Cs. Soon

 

[hassamun]

Why Indian Army’s hunt for assault rifle under Make in India is no good

It rejected the indigenously made 7.62mm rifle on the grounds that it was technologically not up to the mark.

There is little doubt that the Indian Army is in dire need of 7.62mm and 5.56mm assault rifles. The Army still uses the AK-47 in the category of the 7.62mm rifles while the Indian Small Arms Systems (INSAS) 5.56 is an obsolete as well as unreliable assault rifle and needs replacement. A 5.56mm assault rifle is smaller-calibre ammunition which is lighter; hence, for the same load, more rounds can be carried by each infantryman.

In 2016, there were reports that the Army was looking for 1,85,000 assault rifles. Acquiring the assault rifle is crucial for the infantry as it not only faces the brunt on the borders but also carries out counter-terrorism operations. It is a known fact that the Indian Army does not use heavy weaponry in counter-terrorism operations unlike the US and the NATO countries.

One of the reliable weapons systems for the Army during counter-terrorism operations is the assault rifle. Hence, it is important for India to acquire modern and sophisticated assault rifles.

There have been efforts to procure the assault rifle since 2011 but consistent delays have stalled the progress of acquiring a good quality rifle. This delay is a concern for the Army. Despite global companies participating in the assault rifle tender, in 2015, the task to manufacture the rifle was ultimately given to the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The DRDO was to make the INSAS Excalibur, but that plan was cancelled. The same year, India decided to manufacture an assault rifle with interchangeable barrel that would be able to fire different calibres - both 5.56mm round and 7.62mm round - so that the same gun could have served the purpose of counter-terrorism as well as guarding borders and peace stations.

However, this ambitious project did not meet any success as the contractors could not meet with the ambitious demand of the Army. The project required the gun to be lightweight and the calibre needed to be changed by changing the barrel and magazine.

This was followed by another event in September 2016, when the ministry of defence reissued a request for information for a 7.62x51mm assault rifle that can "shoot to kill" instead of a 5.56mm INSAS. Such "shoot to kill" weapons are characteristic of a 7.62mm assault rifle and are best suited in counter-terrorism operations when the reaction time is less. The DRDO was previously developing a 7.62x45mm gun but the Indian Army was then interested in a 7.62x51mm assault rifle.

The Indian Army still uses the AK-47 in the category of the 7.62mm rifles. Photo: Indiandefensenews

The government wanted to procure an assault rifle under the Make in India strategy but that has not reached any success. This year, the Army rejected the indigenously made 7.62mm rifle on the grounds that it was technologically not up to the mark. The Army cited reasons that the gun was of poor quality and had ineffective fire power. According to reports, during the trial sessions, “excessive flash and sound signature” was observed and did not meet the standard.

Rahul Bhonsle, a retired Indian Army brigadier and defence analyst, stated once: “DRDO projects will remain technology demonstrators given that they do not provide confidence to the customer, the Indian armed forces, that these weapons systems are modern or state-of-the-art.”

However, hope is not yet lost as India’s private sector organisations are now keen to venture into weapon manufacturing. In May 2017, reports came in that India’s private firm Punj Lloyd Raksha Systems has set up a venture Israeli Weapon Industries (IWI) to manufacture the Tavor assault rifle.

India has already entered into an agreement with Israel to jointly manufacture weapon systems and transfer of technology and this venture would only strengthen this agreement. The special forces of the Army, the Garud special force of the Indian Air Force and the Marine Corps of the Indian Navy already use the Tavor-21 assault rifles.

According to reports, 1,000 foreign companies from 40 countries are vying to capture the defence market in India and hence, the desire to acquire sophisticated weapon systems including assault rifles can be achieved either by joint production or by transfer of technology - two crucial strategies of the Make in India agenda.

http://www.dailyo.in/variety/indian...apons-manufacturing-israel/story/1/18547.html

 

[StraightShooter]

Why Indian Army’s hunt for assault rifle under Make in India is no good

It rejected the indigenously made 7.62mm rifle on the grounds that it was technologically not up to the mark.

There is little doubt that the Indian Army is in dire need of 7.62mm and 5.56mm assault rifles. The Army still uses the AK-47 in the category of the 7.62mm rifles while the Indian Small Arms Systems (INSAS) 5.56 is an obsolete as well as unreliable assault rifle and needs replacement. A 5.56mm assault rifle is smaller-calibre ammunition which is lighter; hence, for the same load, more rounds can be carried by each infantryman.

In 2016, there were reports that the Army was looking for 1,85,000 assault rifles. Acquiring the assault rifle is crucial for the infantry as it not only faces the brunt on the borders but also carries out counter-terrorism operations. It is a known fact that the Indian Army does not use heavy weaponry in counter-terrorism operations unlike the US and the NATO countries.

One of the reliable weapons systems for the Army during counter-terrorism operations is the assault rifle. Hence, it is important for India to acquire modern and sophisticated assault rifles.

There have been efforts to procure the assault rifle since 2011 but consistent delays have stalled the progress of acquiring a good quality rifle. This delay is a concern for the Army. Despite global companies participating in the assault rifle tender, in 2015, the task to manufacture the rifle was ultimately given to the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The DRDO was to make the INSAS Excalibur, but that plan was cancelled. The same year, India decided to manufacture an assault rifle with interchangeable barrel that would be able to fire different calibres - both 5.56mm round and 7.62mm round - so that the same gun could have served the purpose of counter-terrorism as well as guarding borders and peace stations.

However, this ambitious project did not meet any success as the contractors could not meet with the ambitious demand of the Army. The project required the gun to be lightweight and the calibre needed to be changed by changing the barrel and magazine.

This was followed by another event in September 2016, when the ministry of defence reissued a request for information for a 7.62x51mm assault rifle that can "shoot to kill" instead of a 5.56mm INSAS. Such "shoot to kill" weapons are characteristic of a 7.62mm assault rifle and are best suited in counter-terrorism operations when the reaction time is less. The DRDO was previously developing a 7.62x45mm gun but the Indian Army was then interested in a 7.62x51mm assault rifle.

The Indian Army still uses the AK-47 in the category of the 7.62mm rifles. Photo: Indiandefensenews

The government wanted to procure an assault rifle under the Make in India strategy but that has not reached any success. This year, the Army rejected the indigenously made 7.62mm rifle on the grounds that it was technologically not up to the mark. The Army cited reasons that the gun was of poor quality and had ineffective fire power. According to reports, during the trial sessions, “excessive flash and sound signature” was observed and did not meet the standard.

Rahul Bhonsle, a retired Indian Army brigadier and defence analyst, stated once: “DRDO projects will remain technology demonstrators given that they do not provide confidence to the customer, the Indian armed forces, that these weapons systems are modern or state-of-the-art.”

However, hope is not yet lost as India’s private sector organisations are now keen to venture into weapon manufacturing. In May 2017, reports came in that India’s private firm Punj Lloyd Raksha Systems has set up a venture Israeli Weapon Industries (IWI) to manufacture the Tavor assault rifle.

India has already entered into an agreement with Israel to jointly manufacture weapon systems and transfer of technology and this venture would only strengthen this agreement. The special forces of the Army, the Garud special force of the Indian Air Force and the Marine Corps of the Indian Navy already use the Tavor-21 assault rifles.

According to reports, 1,000 foreign companies from 40 countries are vying to capture the defence market in India and hence, the desire to acquire sophisticated weapon systems including assault rifles can be achieved either by joint production or by transfer of technology - two crucial strategies of the Make in India agenda.

http://www.dailyo.in/variety/indian...apons-manufacturing-israel/story/1/18547.html

How is this related to this thread?

 

[hassamun]

How is this related to this thread?

I only read the Made in India part...

 

[StraightShooter]

any links to substantiate this? or is this just what you feel like the numbers should be?

IAF had requested in 2011 to increase the squadron strength to 45 which has not yet been approved. I would not be surprised if Modi government has silently in principle agreed to approve it. There is reason why India is pursuing both Single and Twin engine fighter programs.

IAF seeks Government sanction for more fighter aircraft squadrons

Bangalore, Feb 11 (PTI)

Preparing itself for a two-front war scenario, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has sent a proposal to the Defence Ministry to increase its sanctioned fighter aircraft strength from 39.5 to 45 squadrons.

"We have proposed to increase our squadron strength from 39.5 to 45 squadrons and it is under consideration of the Defence Ministry," IAF sources told PTI here.

The current squadron strength of the force is 33. A squadron comprises around 18 to 20 aircraft.In view of increasing Chinese military deployments along the Line of Actual Control (LAC), the IAF has been strengthening its presence in the northeastern sector and has plans of deploying four squadrons of the air superiority Su-30 MKI fighter aircraft there by 2015.

Asked about the time-frame in which the IAF was looking to achieve these numbers, they said the future acquisitions would depend on the sanctions accorded to the service by the Government.

Under its modernisation plans, air bases on the western front are also being equipped with modern airfield infrastructure and new fighter planes.

The IAF has plans of inducting more than 350 fighter jet aircraft by the end of this decade which includes the 126 multi-role combat planes (M-MRCA), over 160 new Su-30MKIs and over 140 indigenously-built Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

The contract for the new Su-30s has already been signed and the orders for 126 M-MRCA are expected to be placed by the end of September this year.

Six aircraft including Russian MiG-35, American F-16 and F/A-18, Swedish Gripen, European Eurofighter and French Rafale are in the race for the M-MRCA contract, which is expected to cost USD 11 billion.

The IAF is also phasing out its old Russian-origin fleet of MiG aircraft -- the 21, 23 and 27 series. The oldest MiG-21 Type-77 is likely to be decommissioned by the end of next year.


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/iaf-...on-for-more-fighter-aircraft-squadrons.92898/


Grim reality for IAF: Depleting squadrons worry parliamentary panel
IndiahiddenDec, 22 2014 21:12:11 IST

New Delhi: National security is being "compromised" with a "fast-eroding" combat aircraft squadron strength of the Indian Air Force vis-a-vis the neighbouring countries, leading to a "very grim" situation, a parliamentary panel said today.

"With regard to existing squadron strength, it is learnt that we are down to 25 squadrons today even though the authorisation is for 42 combat squadrons. Thus, our capability has already come down," the Standing Committee on Defence said in a report tabled in Parliament.


Falling strength. Reuters



The 33-member panel, headed by BJP MP BC Khanduri, said, "It was admitted...that our capability (vis-a-vis) our neighbours is fast eroding" and the country's "security requirements are being compromised by ignoring consistently widening gap between sanctioned and existing strength."

IAF now requires at least 45 fighter squadrons to "counter a two-front collusive threat but the government has authorised a strength of 42 squadrons. This revelation is astonishing ...".

Noting that IAF had only 25 active fighter squadrons with 14 of them equipped with MiG-21s and MiG-27s combat planes which would retire between 2015 and 2024, it said the strength would be reduced to just 11 squadrons by 2024. This "widening gap" has occured primarily due to the rate of retirement of the fighter jet aircraft, it said.

Though IAF has contracted for 272 Sukhoi-30 MKIs planes, delivery of which would be completed by 2020, to form 13 squadrons, the air force would be able to add 13 squadrons in its fleet only by that year, the committee observed.

"Further, the series production of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is also awaited to form the first LCA squadron in IAF. The Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) is at Contract Negotiation Committee stage," it said.

"It is needless to say that an early induction of additional aircraft is crucial for arresting the downward trend in the strength of fighter squadrons.

"The Committee finds the situation to be very grim and it is quintessential for the (Defence) Ministry to ensure a smooth and adequate flow of funds and providing easier induction procedure for attaining the requisite squadron strength," it said.

PTI



Published Date: Dec 22, 2014 09:12 pm | Updated Date: Dec 22, 2014 09:12 pm

http://www.firstpost.com/india/grim...adrons-worry-parliamentary-panel-2002307.html

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

I only read the Made in India part...

So delete it, and repost it in the proper thread

 

[ranadd]

Why Indian Army’s hunt for assault rifle under Make in India is no good

It rejected the indigenously made 7.62mm rifle on the grounds that it was technologically not up to the mark.

There is little doubt that the Indian Army is in dire need of 7.62mm and 5.56mm assault rifles. The Army still uses the AK-47 in the category of the 7.62mm rifles while the Indian Small Arms Systems (INSAS) 5.56 is an obsolete as well as unreliable assault rifle and needs replacement. A 5.56mm assault rifle is smaller-calibre ammunition which is lighter; hence, for the same load, more rounds can be carried by each infantryman.

In 2016, there were reports that the Army was looking for 1,85,000 assault rifles. Acquiring the assault rifle is crucial for the infantry as it not only faces the brunt on the borders but also carries out counter-terrorism operations. It is a known fact that the Indian Army does not use heavy weaponry in counter-terrorism operations unlike the US and the NATO countries.

One of the reliable weapons systems for the Army during counter-terrorism operations is the assault rifle. Hence, it is important for India to acquire modern and sophisticated assault rifles.

There have been efforts to procure the assault rifle since 2011 but consistent delays have stalled the progress of acquiring a good quality rifle. This delay is a concern for the Army. Despite global companies participating in the assault rifle tender, in 2015, the task to manufacture the rifle was ultimately given to the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The DRDO was to make the INSAS Excalibur, but that plan was cancelled. The same year, India decided to manufacture an assault rifle with interchangeable barrel that would be able to fire different calibres - both 5.56mm round and 7.62mm round - so that the same gun could have served the purpose of counter-terrorism as well as guarding borders and peace stations.

However, this ambitious project did not meet any success as the contractors could not meet with the ambitious demand of the Army. The project required the gun to be lightweight and the calibre needed to be changed by changing the barrel and magazine.

This was followed by another event in September 2016, when the ministry of defence reissued a request for information for a 7.62x51mm assault rifle that can "shoot to kill" instead of a 5.56mm INSAS. Such "shoot to kill" weapons are characteristic of a 7.62mm assault rifle and are best suited in counter-terrorism operations when the reaction time is less. The DRDO was previously developing a 7.62x45mm gun but the Indian Army was then interested in a 7.62x51mm assault rifle.

The Indian Army still uses the AK-47 in the category of the 7.62mm rifles. Photo: Indiandefensenews

The government wanted to procure an assault rifle under the Make in India strategy but that has not reached any success. This year, the Army rejected the indigenously made 7.62mm rifle on the grounds that it was technologically not up to the mark. The Army cited reasons that the gun was of poor quality and had ineffective fire power. According to reports, during the trial sessions, “excessive flash and sound signature” was observed and did not meet the standard.

Rahul Bhonsle, a retired Indian Army brigadier and defence analyst, stated once: “DRDO projects will remain technology demonstrators given that they do not provide confidence to the customer, the Indian armed forces, that these weapons systems are modern or state-of-the-art.”

However, hope is not yet lost as India’s private sector organisations are now keen to venture into weapon manufacturing. In May 2017, reports came in that India’s private firm Punj Lloyd Raksha Systems has set up a venture Israeli Weapon Industries (IWI) to manufacture the Tavor assault rifle.

India has already entered into an agreement with Israel to jointly manufacture weapon systems and transfer of technology and this venture would only strengthen this agreement. The special forces of the Army, the Garud special force of the Indian Air Force and the Marine Corps of the Indian Navy already use the Tavor-21 assault rifles.

According to reports, 1,000 foreign companies from 40 countries are vying to capture the defence market in India and hence, the desire to acquire sophisticated weapon systems including assault rifles can be achieved either by joint production or by transfer of technology - two crucial strategies of the Make in India agenda.

http://www.dailyo.in/variety/indian...apons-manufacturing-israel/story/1/18547.html

Wrong thread.

@Mods. Please clean up.