Make F16s and Sell it to Pakistan. France taunting India while Rafale deal weakens further

[Syed Asif Bukhari]

I believe they can but why would you want to waste your money on such militants? is that not overkill?

Anyway F16 are top notch fighters as a Indian they do scare.. which is why we flagged up the Americans that's the truth.

US is giving sophisticated military technology to India to counter China. Tell me , will it be only used to counter China or something else?

 

[Dr Gupta]

US is giving sophisticated military technology to India to counter China. Tell me , will it be only used to counter China or something else?

We both know the answer to that question but this F16 deal is part of the Kerry-lugar package. Now the Americans have stated they are going to monitor 'end-use' some people say that is kill switches etc but I am unsure. I do not know if I believe the Americans.... infact I feel the F-16's can and will be used by Pakistan in any shape or form they wish.

 

[Syed Asif Bukhari]

We both know the answer to that question but this F16 deal is part of the Kerry-lugar package. Now the Americans have stated they are going to monitor 'end-use' some people say that is kill switches etc but I am unsure. I do not know if I believe the Americans.... infact I feel the F-16's can and will be used by Pakistan in any shape or form they wish.

If you know the answer, then why are you jumping, crying and making fun of yourselves?

 

[Dr Gupta]

If you know the answer, then why are you jumping, crying and making fun of yourselves?

There is a logic to madness, such deals are interesting as I said it is more to do with Indo-US relationship rather than Pakistan.

 

[帅的一匹]

No one will buy F16 anymore if India assemble it. Only IAF will buy it. Tutkey will provide F16 to Pakidtan if US allows.

 

[Syed Asif Bukhari]

There is a logic to madness, such deals are interesting as I said it is more to do with Indo-US relationship rather than Pakistan.

In fact , its none of your business. Those F16s are being sold to Pakistan .Pakistan has been operating F16s for last 3 decades. You are poking your head in others matters. The approval of F16 deal is a shut up call for Indians. The US has conveyed message to you that don't compare yourself to superpowers. You cant influence US decisions.

 

[That Guy]

One of the first things you learn when you go into IT, the bigger a project, the bigger the chance that it will fail.

This deal was doomed right from the get go.

 

[New Resolve]

The people I feel the most sorry for are the indian fan boys who worshipped Rafale all these years. I dont think India has a choice but buy american now, they just have too many planes to replace. The french should just offer us a kickass avionics package for JF17 just out of spite.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

I'd say their is a 10% chance maybe even lower like 1%

it would be a miracle if India drops the Rafale for anothr bird like the F-16 or Typoon and if a deal could be struck in 2016 and production/delivery beginning in 2017 would be quite the turn around from the bong-dongle the MMRCA was.

If the Indian go for an American aircraft it would be the F-18 Supper Hornet or the Growler because it gives the NAVY a similar aircraft for her aircraft carriers. However there might be a possibility that the Indian's are hopping that some how F-35 might be purchased for the same price as that is required for the Rafales.

The only issue is will the US give transfer of technology of stealth aircraft. In one of the article regarding F-35 read that USA plans to manufacture these aircraft with limited stealth for different operators.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

There is a logic to madness, such deals are interesting as I said it is more to do with Indo-US relationship rather than Pakistan.

The reason of the posts by your esteemed self are showing that you do not like USA because after the Shopping Center Terrorism USA refused to sell the F-16's to Kenya.

We can buy 80 F/A18 SuperHornet for the price being demanded by the French

36 Rafales with 80% availability translates into 29 aircrafts available for combat at all times
We can buy 60 Su30MKI for 4.2 Billion USD which is half the cost of Rafale deal
Then we can not only replace the 6 Su30MKI lost to crashes over 18 years, but remaining 54 Su30MKI or 3 Sqds could crucially replace the remaining Mig 27 Sqds
while maintaining 30 Su30MKI available at all time going by 55% availability rate

It is a good option but this is not acceptable to GOI. There is also an option to get the Mig-35 from Russia.

 

[friendly_troll96]

 

[zebra7]

Reading all the posts in this Thread, I am loving it. Three parties here though

1st -- Who thinks Rafale is not coming to India, and wish US planes - F-16 or F-18 coming
2nd -- Who is enjoying the delay in the Rafale deal IAF with low availability of MKI, as though they are ready with cash in their pocket to buy Rafale.
3rd -- Who think Rafale deal will go through.


For first Party -- There is no chance of US Planes to enter IAF service, because low cost of the planes due to high number manufactured globally will be nullify with the fact that IAF have to setup repair and support infrastructure in India, All US weapons package, which don't have any comonality with the existing fighter planes, and PAF already have F-16 with block 52 as the best in her inventory.

For Second Party -- Including some of the so called Senior members, Two questions, why bother for the MKI availability number, and never spoke of the Typhoon availability

LATEST UPDATE 5 OCTOBER 2014 (CORRECTION READINESS LEVELS) | The air assets of the Bundeswehr, the German Armed Forces, are at an alarming low availability rate, according to recent reports leaked to the public via German Der Spiegel magazine.

According to maintenance journals that the editors of Der Spiegel got their hands a shocking low number of only 8 (!) of an official 109 Eurofighter EF2000s, named Typhoon in British service, are fully ready for all combat tasks. Meaning the German Air Force has to rely much on the remaining, aging and maintenance-sensitive Tornado jets to fulfill its duties. But of these 89 swept-wing fighter-bombers and electronic warfare aircraft, only 36 were fully combat ready at the end of September 2014 according to German media.

Source Alarming low availability German air assets | AIRheadsFLY.com

Second question what is the availability rate of F-16 in PAF ??

Coming to the Point, Is it so difficult to understand simple things :-

1. Original MMRCA deal is been scraped, and the problem of Dassault not giving the guarantee to the HAL produced Rafale is not due to HAL quality but due to various OEMs providing the subsystems in Rafale which insisted, HAL to buy all tools, and equipment from the French supplier, and not by issuing the Global tender. Now MOD, have cleared that Dassault can choose any pvt firm of its own choise, for the MIL produced Rafale, then there is no point of bringing old and outdated facts and news period.

2. Why Rafale is needed when MKI is there, is due to the fact that the MKI airframe is not certified for low altitude DPSAU like Rafale (due to the fact, it was meant for Air Superiority/Air Defence), and when I say certified, it means not certified by the original OEM Sukhoi, like Su-35, nor its PESA BARS radar have the capablity to map the ground needed for terrain following interleaved operation along with the A2A operations.

3. If India, have to make a small deal, it would have gone through way long, but this Rafale deal is going for a long run planning, and the number of Rafale would likely to depend on how FGFA would perform, because IAF is now started preparation for the 5th Gen Warfare. How many of you would consider EF-2000 and Rafale as the 5th Gen warfare capable -- For me both of them along with Su-35 is 5th Gen warfare capable or its latest tranche would.

4. Unknown French or IAF official mentioned by Paid Prestitute, does any official have said anything. Every one is guessing anything, kindly wait for some time, and mist clear, and stop guessing whether its the price, or the MIL or the numbers, reason no body knows the real talks, whether its the upgraded engine of M88 ver 9 or upgraded avionics, or the customised weapon package.


And for the 3rd Group who think this Rafale deal will go through -- I am optimistic, but not with the numbers like 189 - 200 or 250 like @PARIKRAMA because, I believe the real number would depend on the FGFA.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Reading all the posts in this Thread, I am loving it. Three parties here though

1st -- Who thinks Rafale is not coming to India, and wish US planes - F-16 or F-18 coming
2nd -- Who is enjoying the delay in the Rafale deal IAF with low availability of MKI, as though they are ready with cash in their pocket to buy Rafale.
3rd -- Who think Rafale deal will go through.


For first Party -- There is no chance of US Planes to enter IAF service, because low cost of the planes due to high number manufactured globally will be nullify with the fact that IAF have to setup repair and support infrastructure in India, All US weapons package, which don't have any comonality with the existing fighter planes, and PAF already have F-16 with block 52 as the best in her inventory.

For Second Party -- Including some of the so called Senior members, Two questions, why bother for the MKI availability number, and never spoke of the Typhoon availability



Second question what is the availability rate of F-16 in PAF ??

Coming to the Point, Is it so difficult to understand simple things :-

1. Original MMRCA deal is been scraped, and the problem of Dassault not giving the guarantee to the HAL produced Rafale is not due to HAL quality but due to various OEMs providing the subsystems in Rafale which insisted, HAL to buy all tools, and equipment from the French supplier, and not by issuing the Global tender. Now MOD, have cleared that Dassault can choose any pvt firm of its own choise, for the MIL produced Rafale, then there is no point of bringing old and outdated facts and news period.

2. Why Rafale is needed when MKI is there, is due to the fact that the MKI airframe is not certified for low altitude DPSAU like Rafale (due to the fact, it was meant for Air Superiority/Air Defence), and when I say certified, it means not certified by the original OEM Sukhoi, like Su-35, nor its PESA BARS radar have the capablity to map the ground needed for terrain following interleaved operation along with the A2A operations.

3. If India, have to make a small deal, it would have gone through way long, but this Rafale deal is going for a long run planning, and the number of Rafale would likely to depend on how FGFA would perform, because IAF is now started preparation for the 5th Gen Warfare. How many of you would consider EF-2000 and Rafale as the 5th Gen warfare capable -- For me both of them along with Su-35 is 5th Gen warfare capable or its latest tranche would.

4. Unknown French or IAF official mentioned by Paid Prestitute, does any official have said anything. Every one is guessing anything, kindly wait for some time, and mist clear, and stop guessing whether its the price, or the MIL or the numbers, reason no body knows the real talks, whether its the upgraded engine of M88 ver 9 or upgraded avionics, or the customised weapon package.


And for the 3rd Group who think this Rafale deal will go through -- I am optimistic, but not with the numbers like 189 - 200 or 250 like @PARIKRAMA because, I believe the real number would depend on the FGFA.

A lot depends on what Dassault is thinking

If they are happy with easy customers who dont demand domestic production and offsets
then Dassault will not Bend ; and neither will us

And if Lock heed Martin is really making a nice atttractive proposal
what is the harm in looking at it

 

[kmc_chacko]

Reading all the posts in this Thread, I am loving it. Three parties here though

1st -- Who thinks Rafale is not coming to India, and wish US planes - F-16 or F-18 coming
2nd -- Who is enjoying the delay in the Rafale deal IAF with low availability of MKI, as though they are ready with cash in their pocket to buy Rafale.
3rd -- Who think Rafale deal will go through.


For first Party -- There is no chance of US Planes to enter IAF service, because low cost of the planes due to high number manufactured globally will be nullify with the fact that IAF have to setup repair and support infrastructure in India, All US weapons package, which don't have any comonality with the existing fighter planes, and PAF already have F-16 with block 52 as the best in her inventory.

For Second Party -- Including some of the so called Senior members, Two questions, why bother for the MKI availability number, and never spoke of the Typhoon availability



Second question what is the availability rate of F-16 in PAF ??

Coming to the Point, Is it so difficult to understand simple things :-

1. Original MMRCA deal is been scraped, and the problem of Dassault not giving the guarantee to the HAL produced Rafale is not due to HAL quality but due to various OEMs providing the subsystems in Rafale which insisted, HAL to buy all tools, and equipment from the French supplier, and not by issuing the Global tender. Now MOD, have cleared that Dassault can choose any pvt firm of its own choise, for the MIL produced Rafale, then there is no point of bringing old and outdated facts and news period.

2. Why Rafale is needed when MKI is there, is due to the fact that the MKI airframe is not certified for low altitude DPSAU like Rafale (due to the fact, it was meant for Air Superiority/Air Defence), and when I say certified, it means not certified by the original OEM Sukhoi, like Su-35, nor its PESA BARS radar have the capablity to map the ground needed for terrain following interleaved operation along with the A2A operations.

3. If India, have to make a small deal, it would have gone through way long, but this Rafale deal is going for a long run planning, and the number of Rafale would likely to depend on how FGFA would perform, because IAF is now started preparation for the 5th Gen Warfare. How many of you would consider EF-2000 and Rafale as the 5th Gen warfare capable -- For me both of them along with Su-35 is 5th Gen warfare capable or its latest tranche would.

4. Unknown French or IAF official mentioned by Paid Prestitute, does any official have said anything. Every one is guessing anything, kindly wait for some time, and mist clear, and stop guessing whether its the price, or the MIL or the numbers, reason no body knows the real talks, whether its the upgraded engine of M88 ver 9 or upgraded avionics, or the customised weapon package.


And for the 3rd Group who think this Rafale deal will go through -- I am optimistic, but not with the numbers like 189 - 200 or 250 like @PARIKRAMA because, I believe the real number would depend on the FGFA.

Regarding 5th Gen Fighters like PAKFA/FGFA I believe it will take time. By 2025-2030 it will be inducted in small numbers and only by 2030-2035 it will find its place in IAF hangers until then its only an assumption.

IAF has sufficient numbers of Su-30s it might add another 20-30 not more otherwise 20-30 PAKFA or FGFA. Tejas will be lower end fighter filling upto 200-300 in different blocks. Rafael will fill in the place where vacuum of shortage of fighters are there i.e., around 200 fighters.

Induction of Rafael will depended on how many fighters will be retired by 2025 and how many 5th Gen fighters are inducted. There is every possibility of transferring IAF Mig-29s to IN to bring down the number of different types of fighters in IAF service. Further in future Mirage, Mig-27s, 29s & Jaguars roles will be taken over by MRCA which was the primary target of that project.

In my calculation by 2030 IAF may have 40-45 sq of 18 each consisting
Heavy - 250+ - Su-30s - upgraded to Super Su & older will be replaced by or 20-30 PAKFAs
Medium - 200+ - Rafael - upgraded or waiting to be replaced by AMCA
Low - 250+ - Tejas - upgraded in different blocks

 

[Dr Gupta]

The reason of the posts by your esteemed self are showing that you do not like USA because after the Shopping Center Terrorism USA refused to sell the F-16's to Kenya.


It is a good option but this is not acceptable to GOI. There is also an option to get the Mig-35 from Russia.

That thought never crossed my mind, bear in mind after the Nairobi attacks the Americans droned the terrorists who commited those heinous acts.