Make F16s and Sell it to Pakistan. France taunting India while Rafale deal weakens further

[ziaulislam]

RAFALE - Deal would go to Reliance
US Fighter - Deal would go to Tatas
Tejas & FGFA - Deals would go to HAL

This would ensure that the development of the private MIC.

india needs 42 squadrons which is 900 aircraft
think they will acquire 100 typhoons as well, and it would be made by micromax

 

[dadeechi]

india needs 42 squadrons which is 900 aircraft
think they will acquire 100 typhoons as well, and it would be made by micromax

There is hardly any chance that India would pursue Typhoons.

India would have 312 Super Sukhois to get to the desired strength.


126 - RAFALEs
108 - Tejas MK1As
180 - US Fighter (mostly F-16s)
90 - FGFA
312 - Super Sukhois
===========================
816 - Total (45 Squadrons)

 

[ziaulislam]

There is hardly any chance that India would pursue Typhoons.

India would have 312 Super Sukhois to get to the desired strength.


126 - RAFALEs
108 - Tejas MK1As
180 - US Fighter (mostly F-16s)
90 - FGFA
312 - Super Sukhois
===========================
816 - Total (45 Squadrons)

each squardon has 20-22 aircrafts and so india will need 1000+ for 45 sq

200 rafale
200 typhoon
200 USA fighters=100 f-16, 50,f-15 and 50 f-18
200 super sukhois
100+ FGFA
100+ tejas
=1000 fighters= 45 sq

 

[zebra7]

each squardon has 20-22 aircrafts and so india will need 1000+ for 45 sq

200 rafale
200 typhoon
200 USA fighters=100 f-16, 50,f-15 and 50 f-18
200 super sukhois
100+ FGFA
100+ tejas
=1000 fighters= 45 sq

Wrong, the number of squardon depends on the platform itself e.g for SU-30 MKI, which is twinseater, and could be easily be used for training purpose needs to have just 16 birds to make one Squardon.

The number of squardon also depends on the availability of the planes i.e if the availability of the plane is high they can be of less numbers, and vice versa if the availabilty is less.

Ussually, the Squardon number compose of 18 fighter plane with 1/2 trainer and 1 for the attrition backup.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Jammer Bhaiya, Kab tak Troller ka Troll karte Rahoge, when you know very well know the answer and got answer thousand times, that Single Engine are kept away from the Republic day as a safety precaution, and it does not meant for every airforce, because Not all Airforce have Twin Engine Fighter Plane to showcase to the event, and in case of India, we have them. Question is of the option available or not, why bother of stupendous artistry and by the way in such event, only a fly past is more than enough and there is no need for 8 G maneuvour display.

Your post seems to suggest that the Indians are some how unimpressed by the single engine aircraft.

Still India opted to produce a single engine aircraft for the LCA...Why? This aircraft wasted time and money for the past 30 years and still it would not be the first choice of IAF rather it would be labeled in the same category of the Mig-21's that have been given the name 'FLYING COFFINS'.

This is not a very nice name for a new aircraft that has revolutionized Indian Aircraft Industry.

For the people thinking that RAFALE is dead, IAF would get

1) RAFALEs
2) FGFA
3) Tejas MK1A
4) Super Sukhois
5) At least one US fighter (mostly F16)

The big question is not IF but how many of these?

It does not seem accurate F-16's would not be part of IAF because they would not give any advantage over the Mirrage 2000's IAF already operates.

If IAF would consider US aircraft then it would be F-18's so that it can be used for both as a naval platform along with the Tejas and Naval Mirage 2000's from the aircraft carrier. Recently the Indian Navy has parted with the Harriers.

Rafales were chossen in the MMRCA over the Typhoons for the reason that they did not have a naval variant.

if India makes a deal to build F-16s in India the best solution would be for India to scrap the LCA Tejas entirely and let HAL build them. it would free up resources and money for procurement of alot F-16s (proven and deadly) and FGFA


future of India air force could look like this

1) Su-30MKI (over 300)
2) F-16 blk 70 (over 150)
3) FGFA (over 50)
4) Mig-29 (over 50)
5) F-16CJ (at least 50)
6) Mirage-2000


AMCA is still on the drawing board so I won't speculate on that.

If you read the above reply you would understand that IAF would not like to have the F-16's or any other aircraft that does not have a naval variant.

 

[zebra7]

Your post seems to suggest that the Indians are some how unimpressed by the single engine aircraft.

Wrong impression, The single engine, combat plane was barred for the Republic plane, due to One mishap in the past, with the Mirrage 2000 H due to engine failure during Republic day parade. India, have many twin engine combat fighter Plane, like MKIs, Mig 29, Jaguar IS/IM/IB. So as a precautionary measures, the single engine combat plane is not used, simple.

Still India opted to produce a single engine aircraft for the LCA...Why? This aircraft wasted time and money for the past 30 years and still it would not be the first choice of IAF rather it would be labeled in the same category of the Mig-21's that have been given the name 'FLYING COFFINS'.

Hmmn....

Ok I tell you a story of a plane called HF-24 Marut, which was the best airframe of its time and there was no combat plane that can catch it in low level flight, but always remains underpower due to Indian inability to acquire suitable powerplant for it. It participates in 1971 war, and not a single crash, and in one instance, lost its one engine, completely, but still was able to fly back to its base and lands sucessfully. That's why IAF for its DPSA concept/requirement (Deep Strike Penetration Aircraft) prefer twin engine, for that Role, and this was the reason, why IAF prefer Jaguar over Mirrage F-1, and SAAB Viggen. There were many in India, who prefer Viggen over Jaguar, but, Jaguar was the excellent choice for that role and for the Maritime Strike Platform, due to its excellent Navigation, and NAV Attack and guidance capability, and that too without any RADAR. And in short Jaguar is simple, Reliable, and Rugged.

For you information, for DPSA Role, the future combat plane is still preferred Twin Engine aka RAFALE.

As far as MIG-21 is considered, it has been named the FLYING COFFINS, and similarly Starfighter was once named WIDOW MAKER. But in reality, if you check out the real attiration rate as compare with the number of flying hours, you would be surprise, that its not that bad at all, and this platform is still serving 40 Airforce of the world, and with such a low price, high speed, low maintaince this by one survey was chosen, 3rd best combat plane in the world.

LCA for the Role is for the CAS and Interceptor, and though it is a single engine, but engine F404IN20 is very Reliable.
Single engine engine are much cheaper in Maintainance. and operational cost.

This is not a very nice name for a new aircraft that has revolutionized Indian Aircraft Industry.

So what you suggest J-XX or Al-Tejas ??

 

[airmarshal]

Is there a possibility Pakistan might consider Rafale in future?

I know the answer from across the border will be - you dont have money. But I want a serious answer.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Is there a possibility Pakistan might consider Rafale in future?

I know the answer from across the border will be - you dont have money. But I want a serious answer.

1) Not after what UAE Air Force has decided. It is too expensive to operate.
2) If we see the statements of the Air-chief in this regard to procurement of French Aircraft then it is not an option.
3) The time the deliveries are made PAF would have other options i.e 5th Gen. Aircraft are going to be available by 2025 on-wards.
4) The price which is quoted under the deal with Qatar is approximately 120-130 million per plane which is significant higher then the F-18's which is equal.

So far it is flying with France and conformed orders from Qatar would not give Rafale the break-even. In a desperate bid to secure some sales then we might see:

Option.
It would be interesting if PAF is given a deal which would be similar to the 90's offer along with TOT.

Wrong impression, The single engine, combat plane was barred for the Republic plane, due to One mishap in the past, with the Mirrage 2000 H due to engine failure during Republic day parade. India, have many twin engine combat fighter Plane, like MKIs, Mig 29, Jaguar IS/IM/IB. So as a precautionary measures, the single engine combat plane is not used, simple.



Hmmn....

Ok I tell you a story of a plane called HF-24 Marut, which was the best airframe of its time and there was no combat plane that can catch it in low level flight, but always remains underpower due to Indian inability to acquire suitable powerplant for it. It participates in 1971 war, and not a single crash, and in one instance, lost its one engine, completely, but still was able to fly back to its base and lands sucessfully. That's why IAF for its DPSA concept/requirement (Deep Strike Penetration Aircraft) prefer twin engine, for that Role, and this was the reason, why IAF prefer Jaguar over Mirrage F-1, and SAAB Viggen. There were many in India, who prefer Viggen over Jaguar, but, Jaguar was the excellent choice for that role and for the Maritime Strike Platform, due to its excellent Navigation, and NAV Attack and guidance capability, and that too without any RADAR. And in short Jaguar is simple, Reliable, and Rugged.

For you information, for DPSA Role, the future combat plane is still preferred Twin Engine aka RAFALE.

As far as MIG-21 is considered, it has been named the FLYING COFFINS, and similarly Starfighter was once named WIDOW MAKER. But in reality, if you check out the real attiration rate as compare with the number of flying hours, you would be surprise, that its not that bad at all, and this platform is still serving 40 Airforce of the world, and with such a low price, high speed, low maintaince this by one survey was chosen, 3rd best combat plane in the world.

LCA for the Role is for the CAS and Interceptor, and though it is a single engine, but engine F404IN20 is very Reliable.
Single engine engine are much cheaper in Maintainance. and operational cost.



So what you suggest J-XX or Al-Tejas ??

1) There was no suggestion of name though did put the aircraft in the category of Mig-21's. The name given to Mig-21 was though the congress.

2)The story that you have quoted about HF-24 Marut aircraft should have given India the confidence to continue production for a longer period, however that never happened.

3) The engine produced for HF-24 should have continued and when the initial design of the LCA was launched should have incorporated that engine, however that did not happen.

4) The Kaveri Engine which was supposed to power the LCA did not make it through after spending millions.

5) True the F404IN20 is a very reliable engine but it has some serious issues regarding exports.

 

[zebra7]

1) There was no suggestion of name though did put the aircraft in the category of Mig-21's. The name given to Mig-21 was though the congress.

In the present scenario, everything is changed, that's why the Air Superiority Fighter plane SU-30 MKI, with Super Sukhoi Upgrade, will give the MKI some Ground Attack, and SEAD/DEAD Capability. Actually every plane would need to have some sort of Multirole capability, and the plan is to equip every combat plane in IAF with AESA MMR.

As far as Role is Considered,

Air Superiority -- Super Sukhoi 30 MKI, Mig 29 UPG till FGFA take over.
MultiRole -- Mirrage 2000/5 UPG, and Rafale F3
Deep Strike -- Jaguar Darin 3, Rafale
Interceptors --- Mig 21 (Will start retiring from 2018/19 till 2024) by LCA MK-1
CAS/Ground attack -- Present MIG-27 UPG( Will get retire from 2017 onwards), Combat Hawk, and USAV.
Recce --- Mig 27 will be replaced by UAVs.
SEAD/DEAD -- Super Sukhoi 30 MKI, Rafale, Jaguar Darin 3
Maritime Strike -- Jaguar IM UPG, MKI

2)The story that you have quoted about HF-24 Marut aircraft should have given India the confidence to continue production for a longer period, however that never happened.

Problem was the condition at that time, when USA, UK, and west considered India in the Soviet Block.

3) The engine produced for HF-24 should have continued and when the initial design of the LCA was launched should have incorporated that engine, however that did not happen.

The Engine was of UK, and India did try to acquire engine with JV with Egypt, but Egypt later abandoned the project, thus HF-24 remains underpower. The last nail was the acquasition of the Jaguars in IAF which IAF was following for the long period of time, which was developed as the LIFT.

4) The Kaveri Engine which was supposed to power the LCA did not make it through after spending millions.

Kaveri, was just the prototype, the proof of concept of the technology. The last target of the Kaveri is the supersonic flight testing on the Mig-29, and after that the uprated engine, based on the Kaveri tech. will be produced. PS the Kaveri project was only delinked from the LCA project. The engine is planned to get mass production something around 2024-25. and even if Kaveri was ready, it would have been powered by F-404IN20 because new, and unreliable airframe is only powered by reliable powerplant, is the standard procedure.

5) True the F404IN20 is a very reliable engine but it has some serious issues regarding exports.

Can you explain what issues regarding exports. If you think, that F404 could not be used for the export to other countries, that the internal requirement of LCA is already big, and by the way its the MK-2 which will be exported by 2025+, till then Kaveri, and indigenous Aesa MMR UTTAM, and ASTRA MK-2 BVR should get ready.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Can you explain what issues regarding exports. If you think, that F404 could not be used for the export to other countries, that the internal requirement of LCA is already big, and by the way its the MK-2 which will be exported by 2025+, till then Kaveri, and indigenous Aesa MMR UTTAM, and ASTRA MK-2 BVR should get ready.

Is the Kaveri Engine project still available because what I had read in various articles stated otherwise.
India is going to work with the Israel Defence Industries on the other capabilities you have mentioned.

Technically speaking the term "Air Superiority" would still be used however the aircraft would have a swing role so that they can be available for more missions withing the limited time.

The F-15's, F-16's were designed for Air Superiority however the F-18 was the first Swing Role aircraft. This was based on the operational requirement of the US Navy because these aircraft would require to intercept both attacking aircraft and also attack ground based targets.

This was soon adapted by the Mirage 2000 and F-16's blk 40's. Still the F-15 remained in both Air Superiority and Bomb Trucks because they were still comparable to the capabilities of the Soviet Aircraft.

The Egyptian Aviation Industry role back was a set back to many.

 

[shhh]

As long as India makes money out of it no problem with it. There is nothing much pakistan did with nukes and few more f16s is not going to make difference.
On the one hand stmt ridicules India but on the other hand shows sheer desperation to get the contract. With americans snapping at their heels they know if they dont wrap it up they will be on the losing side.



Americans will provide f16 to pakistan and french the subs but they expect India to buy their goods with eyes closed.Neither of them deserve the contract from strategic point of view.


Strategic aim? BS , translates to we aim to make more money from both the idiots.

Some one should slap India hard and let them know that there is no substitution to indigenous system. India spends billions of dollars on buying goods from outside but invests peanuts in R&D. Lotus eaters deserve the rap.

Why didn't India invested in indigenous system in last ten years, PAF was not a threat back then and PLAAF is still a threat to IAF.

Ten years are a very long time for an indigenous aircraft given the money you have.

I cant resist

PLOT TWIST: Pakistan says it will be open to purchasing Indian manufactured F-16s if they can reduce the unit cost.

HAHAHAHAHAHA lol, it would be funny if we make cheap F-16s from India because they have cheap labor.
And then use it for counter terrorism operations.
You know, outside our border, inside the enemy's territory

 

[ito]

This taunt might turn out be true

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

This taunt might turn out be true

IAF is going for F-18's. Not the F-16's.

PAF is going to get more F-16's and it is also going to get a twin engine aircraft...Wait till the end of the year...

 

[ito]

IAF is going for F-18's. Not the F-16's.

PAF is going to get more F-16's and it is also going to get a twin engine aircraft...Wait till the end of the year...

Not yet decided, I guess. India might go with ether of them. F16v fits India's requirement better than F18. India already has dual engine MKIs that are similar to F18s. A small single engine multi role fighter such as F16v can replace Mig21's. Moreover, F16's are lot cheaper than F18s'.

 

[volatile]

To my Indian friends when you make F16 in India please make it properly not like other jets we might buy from you