Majority of Pakistanis for 'Islamisation' of society: Poll

[Zarvan]

One could be a faqih, a mufti, a qadi yet not be a mujtahid who derives new rulings.

A mujtahid mutlaq or "absolute mujtahid" is one that attained the rank of the Four Imams Abu Hanifa, Malik, al-Shafi`i, and Ahmad in knowledge of Arabic, qualification to apply legal reasoning, draw analogies, and infer rulings from the evidence independently of the methodology and findings of the Sunni Schools, through his own linguistic and juridical perspicuity and extensive knowledge of the texts.

There is no mujtahid mutlaq today nor even a claimant to that title.

The qualifications for a mujtahid were set out in the 11th century by Abul Husayn al-Basri in "al Mu’tamad fi Usul al-Fiqh". These were accepted by later Sunni scholars, including al-Ghazali, although al-Ghazali believed that innovation had ended, as there was nobody qualified to be a Mujtahid. Such qualifications require proficiency in Shari'ah and its interpretation.

these Imams never closed the door of Ijtihad its always open and will remain open

 

[Black Widow]

and one more thing
if there had a shriah system in place in pakistan then ttp like persons would have given severe punishments..

such people are temred as fasaadees and their punishment is to kill them and cut their right hand and left foot, or left hand and right foot.


It's your opinion but I think with few changes we can make it very close to shariah

Most of you may disagree with me, but Islamization of society will be steps backward for pakistan... You can't run a country by rules written some 1000 years ago...

There are only two thing, either you can be china (improved Communism and put some Capitalism in there rule) or Russia/USSR (Adamant on Communism Idea)

In an unstabalized country Sharia can be double edge sword, The Fundamentalist can use it as tool to overthrow Democratic government. Pakistan is not ready for it...

Democracy is bad, but there is no alternative of democracy...
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[kugga]

Most of you may disagree with me, but Islamization of society will be steps backward for pakistan... You can't run a country by rules written some 1000 years ago...

There are only two thing, either you can be china (improved Communism and put some Capitalism in there rule) or Russia/USSR (Adamant on Communism Idea)

In an unstabalized country Sharia can be double edge sword, The Fundamentalist can use it as tool to overthrow Democratic government. Pakistan is not ready for it...

Democracy is bad, but there is no alternative of democracy...
1.
---------- Post added at 11:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 AM ----------

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do you think the system working in Iran contains 1000 years old rules??

 

[asad71]

dude ur not even allowed to make a temple in gulf nor hold any public meetings in gulf(obviously minorities)...ur not allowed to enter mecca as well.....dont compare with the western world.

1.Bhutan, whose foreign, def and monetary affairs are under India's control, does not allow construction of any place of worship except that of Buddhism. IA has adhoc temples and gurdwaras in their camps. Most Hindu temples in India bar entry of this cast or the other and people of other religions. Even Indira Gandhi had to seek blessings sitting outside a temple somewhere because she was not allowed in. Sonia has more serious problems.

2. Peoples' sentiments and values need to be respected in a civilized world. But let us get on with the discussions in the topic please.

 

[Laughing_soldier]

Pakistan is already deeply Islamic society what more Islamisation do they need?

 

[twoplustwoisfour]

too much of a good thing......???

 

[T-Faz]

if i remember, it was you who ran away like a chicken in that thread in which you dreamed to make me run----

Haha, it wasn't a dream, you did run away, the lost post was by me around 7 days and you still haven't replied to it.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/109448-army-high-command-not-bhutto-responsible-1971-east-pak-fiasco-says-d-5.html

i simply asked, why didn't you quote his full statement?

Because there is nothing in it that will justify what you are alluding to, all Jinnah is talking about is a democratic, fair, equal and justice led society with the context of Islam.

stop acting dishonestly by half-quoting Jinnah's statement and misguiding the people. i will be keeping an eye on your posts relating to Jinnah as you have proved that you are also one of those who likes to play with his speeches/statements

You are the one who twists his words for your likings, your Maulanas like Maududi, Madani and others used to call him Kafir-e-Azam.

I am going to keep an eye on you so you don't twist history.

 

[T-Faz]

Back in 1950, 31 Scholars from all sects unanimously agreed on 22 points to establish Shariat in Pakistan. Your usless propaganda whose Islam will not work..........

Are you talking about the same scholars who could not agree to a single definition of a Muslim during their questioning by Justice Munir and Justice Kayani.

First read this regarding the Objective Resolution:

The Quaid-i-Azam's conception of a modern national State, it is alleged,became obsolete with the passing of the Objectives Resolution on 12th March 1949; but it has been freely admitted that this Resolution, though grandiloquent in words, phrases, and clauses, is nothing but a hoax, and that not only does it not contain even a semblance of the embryo of an Islamic State but its provisions, particularly those relating to fundamental rights, are directly opposed to the principles of an Islamic State.

Do these Ulema's even understand Islam?

They could not agree on a single definition of a Muslim.

Below we reprodure the definition of a Muslim given by each alim in his own words. This definition was asked after it had been clearly explained to each witness that he was required to give the irreducible minimum conditions which a person must satisfy to be entitled to be called a Muslim, and that the definition was to be on the principle on which a term in grammar is defined. Here is the result: --

Maulana Abul Hasanat Muhammad Ahmad Qadri, President, Jami'at-ul-Ulama-i-Pakistan --

"Q.--What is the definition of a Muslim?
A.-- (1) He must believe in the Unity of God.
(2) He must believe in the prophet of Islam to be a true prophet, as well as in all other prophets who have preceded him.
(3) He must believe in the Holy Prophet of Islam as the last of the prophets (khatam-un-nabiyin).
(4) He must believe in the Qur'an as it was revealed by God to the Holy Prophet of Islam.
(5) He must believe as binding on him the injunctions of the Prophet of Islam.
(6) He must believe in the qiyamat.
Q.-- Is a tarik-us-salat [=one who doesn't perform the prayers] a Muslim?
A.-- Yes, but not a munkir-us-salat [=one who denies that prayers are a duty]."

Maulana Ahmad Ali, President, Jami'at-ul-Ulama-i-Islam, Maghribi Pakistan --

"Q.-- Please define a Muslim.
A.-- A person is a Muslim if he believes (1) in the Qur'an and (2) what has been said by the prophet. Any person who possesses these two qualifications is entitled to be called a Muslim, without his being required to believe in anything more or to do anything more."

Maulana Abul Ala Maudoodi, Amir, Jama'at-i-Islami --

"Q.-Please define a Muslim.
A.-- A person is a Muslim if he believes (1) in tauheed, (2) in all the prophets (ambiya), (3) all the books revealed by God, (4) in mala'ika (angels), and (5) yaum-ul-akhira (the Day of Judgment).
Q.-- Is a mere profession of belief in these articles sufficient to entitle a man to call himself a Musalman and to be treated as a Musalman in an Islamic State?
A.-- Yes.
Q.-- If a person says that he believes in all these things, does anyone have a right to question the existence of his belief?
A.-- The five requisites that I have mentioned above are fundamental, and any alteration in any one of these articles will take him out of the pale of Islam."

Ghazi Siraj-ud-Din Munir --

"Q.-- Please define a Muslim.
A.-- I consider a man to be a Muslim if he professes his belief in the kalima, namely, La Ilaha Illallah-o-Muhammad-ur-Rasulullah, and leads a life in the footsteps of the Holy Prophet."

Mufti Muhammad Idris, Jamia Ashrafia, Nila Gumhad, Lahore --

"Q.-- Please give the definition of a Musalman.
A.-- The word 'Musalman' is a Persian one. There is a distinction between the word 'Musalman' which is a Persian word for Muslim, and the word 'momin'. It is impossible for me to give a complete definition of the word 'momin'. I would require pages and pages to describe what a momin is. A person is a Muslim who professes to be obedient to Allah. He should believe in the Unity of God, prophethood of the ambiya, and in the Day of Judgment. A person who does not believe in the azan or in the qurbani goes outside the pale of Islam. Similarly, there are a large number of other things which have been received by tavatir from our prophet. In order to be a Muslim, he must believe in all these things. It is almost impossible for me to give a complete list of such things."

Hafiz Kifayat Hussain, Idara-i-Haquq-i-Tahaffuz-i-Shia --

"Q.-Who is a Musalman?
A.-- A person is entitled to be called a Musalman if he believes in (1) tauheed, (2) nubuwwat, and (3) qiyamat. These are the the fundamental beliefs which a person must profess to be called a Musalman. In regard to these three basic doctrines there is no difference between the Shias and the Sunnies. Besides the belief in these three doctrines, there are other things called 'zarooriyat-i-din' which a person must comply with in order to be entitled to be called a Musalman. These will take me two days to define and enumerate. But as an illustration I might state that the respect for the Holy Book, wajoob-i-nimaz, wajoob-i-roza, wajoob-i-hajj-ma'a-shariat, and other things too numerous to mention, are among the 'zarooriyat-i-din'."

Maulana Abdul Hamid Badayuni, President, Jami'at-ul-Ulama-i-Pakistan: --

"Q.-- Who is a Musalman, according to you?
A.-- A person who believes in the zarooriyat-i-din is called a momin, and every momin is entitled to be called a Musalman.
Q.-- What are these zarooriyat-i.din?
A.-- A person who believes in the five pillars of Islam and who believes in the rasalat of our Holy Prophet fulfils the zarooriyat-i-din.
Q.-- Have other actions, apart from the five arakan, anything to do with a man being a Muslim or being outside the pale of Islam?
(Note-- Witness has been explained [to] that by actions are meant those rules of moral conduct which in modern society are accepted as correct.)
A.-- Certainly.
Q.-- Then you will not call a person a Muslim who believes in arakan-i-khamsa and the rasalat of the prophet but who steals other peoples' things, embezzles property entrusted to him, has an evil eye on his neighbour's wife, and is guilty of the grossest ingratitude to his benefector?
A.-- Such a person, if he has the belief already indicated, will be a Muslim despite all this."

Maulana Muhammad Ali Kandhalvi, Darush-Shahabia, Sialkot --

"Q.--Please define a Musalman.
A.-- A person who in obedience to the commands of the prophet performs all the zarooriyat-i-din is a Musalman.
Q.-- Can you define zarooriyat-i-din?
A.-- Zarooriyat-i-din are those requirements which are known to every Muslim irrespective of his religious knowledge.
Q.-- Can you enumerate zarooriyat-i-din?
A.-- These are too numerous to be mentioned. I myself cannot enumerate these zarooriyat. Some of the zarooriyat-i-din may be mentioned, as salat, saum, etc."

Maulana Amin Ahsab Islahi -

"Q.-- Who is a Musalman?
A.-- There are two kinds of Musalmans, a political (siyasi) Musalman and a real (haqiqi) Musalman. In order to be called a political Musalman, a person must:
(1) believe in the Unity of God,
(2) believe in our Holy Prophet being khatam-un-nabiyin, i.e., 'final authority' in all matters relating to the life of that person,
(3) believe that all good and evil comes from Allah,
(4) believe in the Day of Judgment,
(5) believe in the Qur'an to be the last book revealed by Allah,
(6) perform the annual pilgrimage to Mecca,
(7) pay the zaka'at,
(8) say his prayers like the Musalmans,
(9) observe all apparent rules of Islami mu'ashira, and
(10) observe the fast (saum).
If a person satisfies all these conditions he is entitled to the rights of a full citizen of an Islamic State. If any one of these conditions is not satisfied, the person concerned will not be a political Musalman. (Again said It would be enough for a person to be a Musalman if he merely professes his belief in these ten matters irrespective of whether he puts them into practice or not. In order to be a real Musalman, a person must believe in and act on all the injunctions by Allah and his prophet in the manner in which they have been enjoined upon him.

Q.-- Will you say that only the real MusaIman is 'mard-i-saleh'?
A.--Yes.
Q.-- Do we understand you aright that in the case of what you have called a political (siyasi) Musalman, belief alone is necessary, while in the case of a haqiqi Musalman there must not only be belief but also action?
A.-- No, you have not understood me aright. Even in the case of a political (siyasi) Musalman action is necessary; but what I mean to say is that if a person does not act upon the belief that is necessary in the case of such a MusaIman, he will not be outside the pale of a political (siyasi) M:usalman.
Q.-- If a political (siyasi) Musalman does not believe in things which you have stated to be necessary, will you call such a person be-din?
A.-- No, I will call him merely be-amal."


The definition by the Sadr Anjuman Ahmadiya, Rabwah, in its written statement, is that a Muslim is a person who belongs to the ummat of the Holy Prophet and professes belief in kalima-i-tayyaba.

d.) Keeping in view the several definitions given by the ulama, need we make any comment except that no two learned divines are agreed on this fundamental? If we attempt our own definition, as each learned divine has done, and that definition differs from that given by all others, we unanimously go out of the fold of Islam. And if we adopt the definition given by any one of the ulama, we remain Muslims according to the view of that alim, but kafirs according to the definition of everyone else.

In one of the sessions, the Ulema asked the judge to provide him with more time so that he can devise an answer to who is a Muslim. To this reply, Justice Kayani got angry and stated that it has been thousands of years since Islam began and you still cannot state who a Muslim is.

“Some say, they were three, and the fourth was their dog; others say, they were five, and the sixth was their dog, guessing at random. * * * * say, my Lord knoweth best.”

Lord knoweth best and you leave it up to him.

 

[Zarvan]

Most of you may disagree with me, but Islamization of society will be steps backward for pakistan... You can't run a country by rules written some 1000 years ago...

There are only two thing, either you can be china (improved Communism and put some Capitalism in there rule) or Russia/USSR (Adamant on Communism Idea)

In an unstabalized country Sharia can be double edge sword, The Fundamentalist can use it as tool to overthrow Democratic government. Pakistan is not ready for it...

Democracy is bad, but there is no alternative of democracy...
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---------- Post added at 11:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 AM ----------

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Islam is for every time its rules are very much applicable today

 

[kugga]

T-Faz Kindly keep this Ahmadiya thing out of Islam coz whether ulemas agree on definition of muslim or not but all of them agree that Ahmadees are non-mulims... so no need to discuss your faith we are talking about Islam not Mirza ghulam ahmad qadiyan's religion

 

[kugga]

and by the way quran has completely given a definition of muslim. faith is most important of all your faith determine whether you are a muslim or not.

 

[Zarvan]

T-Faz Kindly keep this Ahmadiya thing out of Islam coz whether ulemas agree on definition of muslim or not but all of them agree that Ahmadees are non-mulims... so no need to discuss your faith we are talking about Islam not Mirza ghulam ahmad qadiyan's religion

Kugga their are some points in which you have to believe to be muslims and HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW as the last prophet is the second major believe in Islam so Ahamdies are not Muslims because the don't believe it

 

[MilSpec]

Good for Islamic Republic of pakistan ... thats exactly what they need ... more islam...

 

[T-Faz]

T-Faz Kindly keep this Ahmadiya thing out of Islam coz whether ulemas agree on definition of muslim or not but all of them agree that Ahmadees are non-mulims... so no need to discuss your faith we are talking about Islam not Mirza ghulam ahmad qadiyan's religion

Who is talking about the Ahmadi thing here, I am pointing to the differences in opinion about Islam between the Ulema, none of them have a similar understanding.

Keep Ahmadis as Non Muslims, I don't have a problem with that, no one is asking for the Ordinance XX to be repealed.

But explain to me as to whose Islam do you want, Deobandi, Barelvi, Wahabi, Shia or another variation.

 

[desiman]

How much more religion do you want in your country ? Keep religion to religion and let governance take its own track. The problem with Pakistan is that Pakistanis always feel that the grass is greener on the other side. When you have a military rule, you scream for democracy, when you have a democracy you want Sharia. im sure when Sharia will be implemented, you will want something else. Dont change yourself, just keep changing the system.