Majestic Su 30 MKI's - Night operations - HD footage

[Ali_Baba]

incorrect...

Su30MKI has 2D TVC... has much more agility and can dominate in dogfights against any non TVC fighters,
regarding BVR again MKI shown its agility by surviving 5 Aim-120C5 on 2 MKIs by F-16s...

And India is not buying Rafale for Air2Air role its a multirole.. MKI will keep playing the air dominance role it have been subjected to.
And results will be different if instead of Mig21 Rafale was already bought by UPA years ago not MKI.

What did the doctors, tell you. You must take your medicine...

 

[Basel]

Repeat a lie so often so that country men begins to believe it. So have you guys ever found why the pilot who shot down Su 30 received a lower award to the fella who downed a Mig21 (who took down a F16).
What is the logic that Pakistanis have forced themselves to believe ?
I mean think about it - IAF has published radar intercepts of F16 going down and has officially credited the kill to Abhi based on Radar, EW and Comm intercepts - no F16 wreckage found. PAK fanboys refuses to believe it. Yet on the same time - they want to believe they shot down a Su 30 without making public any evidence and wreckage being found ! Absolute farce



Bold and red font guy

Kindly bring authentic independent people to support your claim.

Even you strategic ally have not accepted your claim.

 

[Daghalodi]

What did the doctors, tell you. You must take your medicine...

I guess @Tumba has taken an overdose of cow urine

 

[HRK]

Consider it as my last post

Looks i have to repeat myself. Abhi's seeker got a lock, he let loose and turned. He may or may not have got visual recognition - it does not matter. Based on his SA - he knew there were no friendlies. It was adversarial aircraft.

All of our discussion is the discussion from Indian point of view initiated from the point that within visual range dog fight Abhi was not able to establish the visual identification of the target but get the missile lock,
At this point I said many times there must be
- A mean to acquire missile lock against the target, as WVR R-73 missile can not acquire the lock on its own at 25-30 K range

- Which as per Indian source [as stated previously] was a "Radar Assisted" lock, therefore there must not be any confusion for Abhi about the identity of the target but it is also an establish fact even after reaching India he was not sure what he has targeted as per Indian Claim and he was 'informed' by IAF that it was F-16

Now for your point that he was sure about no presence of Friendly aircraft nearby, I simply want to ask a question that when he was not even aware about the area of his presence, how he was sure that no IAF aircraft was in that area .... ???

Recall as per Indian claim there were 24 Pakistani and 8 Indian aircrafts busy in Dogfight ....

was he even aware that his number-2 had deserted him .... ???

If this is the case then it mean he had situational awareness, which further mean he was in position to establish identity of Target

And if the answer is NO which mean he had degraded situational awareness, here at this stage recall as per your claim that upgraded MiG-21 Bison is not capable to establish identification of target then how after acquired the missile lock he establish the positive identification b/w the friendly or non-cooperative target .... ???

Don't tell me that Abhi launch the missile without establishing positive identification of the target, as it will not only give Wing Commander of IAF a bad professional reputation but as well as to the IAF as an organization

Incorrect- you just cherry picked what supported your hypothesis. GC was in Abhi's touch when Abhi took from Srinagar for interception. GC must have given Abhi situation SIT REP. At some point when Abhi climbed over pir panjal ranges - PAF's EW aircraft must have jammed comm's. After that he could not hear any thing (radio silence) however (a) his seeker got a lock on signal since he was within the seeker range- he took the shot or (b) he climbed and cleared pir panjal ranges around 20k feet - turned on kopyo at the last moment so that PAF a/cs would not be alerted with RWR & took a radar guided shot. Both of the scenario is possible.

Cherry picked what cherry picking .... ???

I simply from the start of our discussion emphasis on these points
- IF the Fight was WVR
- How Abhi establish the Identification of the Target
- What was the status of situational Awareness of Abhi
- And what was the crash site of F-16 .... ??? [as highlighted in my second post with you but ignored by you]
- And relative distance of Dogfight and crash sites ..... ??? [as per Indian claims, and again ignored by you]

Till now you only debated about the situational awareness of Abhi and have establish that he had at least that level of situational awareness in which he could positively establish the identification of the target and could launch the missile

Seems that is the case. Abhi was not aware of postion due to comm jam - whats the point ?

AGAIN Point is SITUATIONAL AWARENESS ..... which could lead to firing protocol after positive identification of target

Sameer Joshi is ex M2K pilot - but there was no debrief done to him. So to claim he is presenting correct picture - may not be appropriate. But lets take your word for it. Even if what you have pasted is true - it still does not prove Abhi knew the identity of the aircraft. At 30-35km when he turned on kopyo radar - his radar symbology will show a triangle which represents bogey. It does not tell him - its a F16 or JF17 ! Remember i told you mig 21 does not have non cooperative aircraft recognition tech; A su 30 would have been able to paint the picture with exact a/c. In other words - Abhi can never tell which aircraft he shot down - only IAF AWACS/Ground radar can tell.

Again my dear these are not "My Words" these are what is published in Indian Media by an ex-serviceman.

Secondly even if MiG-21 Bison avionics were unable to differentiate b/w F-16 or Jf-17, Abhi being an experience aviator could easily differentiate between them as at final stages of claimed kill he was just 8-10 km distance [again as per IAF OFFICIAL CLAIM link was already provided in previous post]

If he was not aware about the kill at this close range then any claim by IAF become uncertain and dubious.

It just shows you dont fathom or understand the combat scenarios at all. In your naiviety you think air combat is extremely simple. Let me explain again.
Pir Panjal ranges create a natural valley - Srinagar airport where Mig21's are based is situated in this valley. So for your SAAB-2000 to track Mig21's , it has be extremely close or above the airbase. If ERIE was flying way inside the PAK border then there is no way it can detect fighters flying out of Srinagar airport due to pir panjal ranges. You see mountains present a natural barier to radar waves - in essence it creates a blind spot.

From one of your links -->
"Since the MiGs climbed in the shadow of the Pir Panjal range, Pakistan’s AWAC failed to detect them. The sudden appearance of the MiGs proved to be a blessing for India, as the Pakistani fighters were taken aback.
Panicked Pakistani pilots, who broke into Punjabi rather than sticking to the military codes, fired about 11 H-4 glide-bombs, weighing 1,000 kg each, at Indian military installations, none of which hit the target."

My dear it better to comment on the events and stories presented by Indian side rather then commenting about my understanding of the events, as I have not said anything from my side but quoted ONLY INDIAN SOURCES ....

Additionally I don't need to repeat the functional advantages of Airborne AEW&C over Ground Radar stations anyone could google it, so plz understand the scenario which you are presenting could only be right if we discuss about Ground Radars but not with AEW&C, btw this scenario which you have quoted reflect poorly on IAF tactical training in network centric environment.

Looking for a way out are you ? Its not my statement - its IAF chiefs statement. Mig 21 do not have that capability - infact older generation a/c's dont have that capbility. I dount if PAF's F7 has that capability. Regardless of what we think - not all a/c's have similar technology. Keep the bias aside- you will learn something new.

look my dear it's not my stance that MiG-21 have this capability or not because in anycase my point prove right about the degraded situational awareness of Abhi, it is Indian source as posted in earlier post which state that Abhi achieve Radar Assisted lock ....

HRK - do you understand how it all works ? Did you read what you just posted ? Minty gave a sit rep to abhi when he took from Srinagar. Abhi was in touch with Minty till he cleared Pir Panjal. As soon as he cleared Pir Panjal - his coms were jammed by a EW aircraft present in the vicinity. Her statement actually explains it. Jamming does not occur over a wide area (i mean it can - but it would require tremendous power which neither PAF or IAF has. Only USAF has). Jamming occurs in certain direction or limited area. Most probably PAF might have employed some type of SPJ.

I understand clearly it's you and your Indian citizens who need to ask the questions from your authorities as I raised about the contradiction in two of her interviews, secondly as Indian reports state that his communications were jammed even before he crossed the LOC read this

New Delhi: “Turn cold, turn cold”, a young woman IAF controller sitting in a secure control room in Punjab shouted repeatedly, exactly a month ago. But Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman could not hear anything inside his MiG-21 Bison.

Not realising that he had crossed the Line of Control, Abhinandan locked on to an F-16 of the Pakistan Air Force and fired his R-73 air-to-air missile seconds before his plane was shot at. In a matter of seconds, both aircraft went tumbling down

and this

An analysis of the dogfight of 27 February by the IAF has revealed that Abhinandan could not hear the command being given by the officer. The IAF believes this could be because of radio jamming by Pakistan.

source of both quotes : link

So he had no situational awareness as he was not in contact even when he was at the Indian side of LOC

Another important thing is that as per this report F-16 crossed LOC and was returning back to Azad Kashmir Abi was chasing an aircraft but was not even aware of the type of the aircraft ''he was chasing a target" but was informed after his return to India that it was an F-16 does it look logical to you .... ???

Keep in mind in chasing mode Radars and specially missiles have less range then the maximum ranges for headon mode specially missiles usually have half the range of maximum figures in chasing mode, now plz explain to the world that

How Abhi scored a kill against the F-16 from 8-15 km distance in Dogfight but was not even able to establish the identification in such close range in broad daylight .... ????

Here kindly note another twist that too from OFFICIAL SOURCE

F-16s in the above attached screenshot is from official press briefing by IAF show F-16s near Mirpur Azad Kashmir and Jhelum in Pakistani Punjab not in the Horran area were the claimed dog fight occurred that too in the head on position, and above all both the areas where F-16 were show are at least 20-30 KM from Horran Area where the crash site of Abhinandan MiG-21 is ....

so plz explain to the world that Abhi was chasing an F-16 OR was searching for Target ..... ???

Also secondly - are you really telling that PAF jammed ALL the a/c's in the region (Migs, Su's , M2k's , Phalcon Awacs , Netra AWECS, etc) ? Do you have any idea what kind of power an EW aircraft would require to accomplish this task ? Even growler (s) wont be able to accomplish what you are infering.

not me but its Indian media reports which suggest wide area was put under EW cluster by Pakistan .... but it's not that important as I only trying to understand about Abhi's situational awareness which lead to firing protocols to target the claimed F-16 by IAF

You are desperately trying to search for contradictions in order to make yourself believe that this is all a hogwash. Hence this constant tusle - shes a junior ranked office - who really tells as it is. In plain speak - she will never be politically correct.

Not at all my dear not at all you think I am desperate when even I have not posted a single
- Source
- Claim
- Argument of Pakistan or PAF about the incident

All I did till now is to quote Indian officials and media and their number of theories about the claims they made, and only trying to logically deciphering those and you think I am desperate, number of these many theories, claims, version of the same incident suggest it is the other side WHO IS DESPERATE .....

As said earlier it was my last post on this thread now Good luck explaining the queries I have raised to others .....

 

[anathema]

If the BARS had no issue, why were they running around like headless chickens and buggered off from the Sector as soon as they realized how much danger they were in. You can call the tactics poor or good, fact of the matter is the F16 dominated the SU30MKI. One fighter was throwing punches and the other was dodging them, and in the end just ran away from the fight. Who won?

Either you are acting naive or you dont understand how BVR air combat happens. I think you are carrying over your wvr notion of combat to bvr regime as well. It comes out with choice of words that you used - 'dodging' , 'ran away', etc. Let me try again to paint the BVR combat picture between Su's & F16's.
1. PAF initiates large force package of 24 A/C's comprising of 16's , 17's and Mirages. Out of which certain F16's have been given responsibility for BARCAP , certain F16's have been responsibility of lasing target, etc (we will stick to F16 only). IAF AWACS captures the gathering of force package and vectors - 2 Su 30's and 2 Mirages to intercept. Keep in mind these are in totally different sectors ( north and south of pir panjal)
2. F16 who has a constant sit rep and complete SA from ERIEYE, turns on their APG radar once they hear news about Su 30's. Here they paint Su 30's with their APG radars and Su 30's paint F16 with their BARS radar. The next part is what i would like to call poor BVR tactics (unless it was a tactical decision). For whatever reason - F16's decides to launch AMRAAM between Dmax1 and 2 (which is the max range of missile). They are doing this for 2 reasons - (1) they want to ease pressure on their strike package and put Su's in a defensive mode. (2) they are praying for hail marry - they want to snap the beast and are counting on luck. Both are valid in tactical situations but is regarded as poor BVR tactics - since fighter can easily outmaneuver missiles launched at max ranges by cranking and pumping. It explains why all the AMRAAMs missed - it was poor BVR tactics from PAF. I have just narrated F16's - action in the battle picture , there are other elements - perhpas some other day
3. Actions of Su 30's --> Their RWR goes of as soon as APG paints them. They clearly know the distance between themselves and their own a/c's. They consider the worst possible scenario - that F16's have launched AMRAAM's (note Su 30's does not have MAWS - so they wont know, so they guess - anyways MAWS cannot pick up at that long range). Here Su 30 's initiates cranking - simply put an act of turning aggresively to bleed the energy of missile. They are pumping chaffs flares - at the same time. As soon as RWR shuts off - (F16's have broken away) , they turn HOT again. Su 30's here are striving for a firing solution. I hope you know what a firing solution is - BVR missiles cannot be just launched by pressing trigger. Computer has to give a go ahead - and that is calculated if the parameter of the missile are correct. In this case Su 30 never received firing solution - because of height differential and AMRAAM being longer range. THIS was a learning from 27th for IAF - that explains why they went ahead immediately with procumernet on R77 VV and ASTRA.
Now that i have painted the battle picture - the concept of running away and dodging is a layman analysis. A PAF professional would never paint the picture the way you did, since he knows what is BVR combat.

If the JF17's were not willing to fight the M2K's, why did the M2K's exit the sector after getting consistently locked by the JF17's. PAF fighters did not run away from the sector, in-fact they were dominating the sector daring the IAF to come out and fight them, but unfortunately the IAF didn't want to play that day. You asked for PAF's Data-Linking capability in another thread, here is another clue for you, the JF-17's were receiving real time information from the Erieyes and knew exactly where the IAF's fighters were.

M2K's never exited the sector. IAF painted a complete battle picture - their senior air marshalls came on record and explained the battle picture. Only one fighter from PAF came to fight that day - it was F16. Forget about lock (not sure who feeds these theories to you guys - since officially PAF has not made a single comment; Only Kaiser Tufail has written article and he has changed versions often) JF17 was very vary of M2K - it just kept to its side of the border and never tried to engage M2K. Perhaps JF17 must have been a decoy package - in that case, great tactic. All of IAF fighters knew where PAF fighters were - through sit rep from phalcon, ground controller and ofcourse their own radars. There is a report that one of the M2k radars was acting funny - that may be due to jamming or just dumb luck. JF 17 did not make a mark that day - perhaps in future.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...-marshal-raghunath-nambiar-1535669-2019-05-27

Here you go with Professionals backing up PM Modi.

Rubbish report - most probably misquoted. Hes a professional who has almost 4k hours under his belt. He would have mentioned about Crystal Maze and its inability to lock on targets in presence of cloud cover. Journos interpreted it differently.

Is this a joke? One of the main reasons why PAF acquired AWACS was to detect low flying small aircrafts hiding between mountain ranges. Erieye was not surprised, and PAF's radars were tracking the MIG21 flying low for quite some time. Nauman could see the MIG21 clearly, and this is why he painted it, and launched his AMRAAM towards that. This is an old age IAF tactic of low flying MIG21's and M2K's for which PAF devised a counter strategy more than a decade ago.

You clearly have no clue. Your ERIEYE , PHALCON AWACS, SENTRY, WEDGETAIL ,etc cannot see through mountains. Thats the problem - you guys assume a lot and what next comes is pure lollywood fiction. Here's the explanation that i gave to HRK - since he also was not aware

Pir Panjal ranges create a natural valley - Srinagar airport where Mig21's are based is situated in this valley. So for your SAAB-2000 to track Mig21's , it has be extremely close or above the airbase. If ERIE was flying way inside the PAK border then there is no way it can detect fighters flying out of Srinagar airport due to pir panjal ranges. You see mountains present a natural barier to radar waves - in essence it creates a blind spot.

From one of your links -->
"Since the MiGs climbed in the shadow of the Pir Panjal range, Pakistan’s AWAC failed to detect them. The sudden appearance of the MiGs proved to be a blessing for India, as the Pakistani fighters were taken aback.
Panicked Pakistani pilots, who broke into Punjabi rather than sticking to the military codes, fired about 11 H-4 glide-bombs, weighing 1,000 kg each, at Indian military installations, none of which hit the target."

And since you are interested in knowing western world tactics - listen to this episode of fighter pilot podcast by USAF pilots . They precisely talk about this scenario - enemy fighters surprising them in mountain ranges. Its pretty enlightening. Actually its a well known tactic.

Did you happen to see the satelittle pictures? Where are the 300 dead bodies? Why weren't Pakistan's hospitals in the area overwhelmed since 300 especially for a small town like Balakot is a lot of dead people.

Even Reuters does not believe you my friend. You're fighting a loosing fight. Feel free to blame Reuters as an ISI funded news network.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...standing-at-indian-bombing-site-idUSKCN1QN00V

NE whats the point ? Do you want me to put BBC links here on how journos were taken to Balakot site after 43 days on a clear guided tour and how they avoided the mujahid hostel ? Do you want me to put link- where even after 1 year Balakot site remains off limits to unauthorized visits and that residents dont talk for fear of army harrasing them. I cannot confirm the 300 number, but bombing did happen. These people were expendables - so what hospital are you talking about. Survivors would have been rushed to Mil facility- perhaps.

That's not a proof, i can forge much better on Microsoft Paint then what IAF did.

Now your bias is speaking. The way i look at it - IAF called an official presser , presented radar intercepts. They painted the complete air battle picture - also categorically told the EW and comm intercepts. Operative word is 'Official presser' and essentially officially they called PAF liar the second time - i am yet to see a official presser by PAF on the Su 30 shot down incident. I am yet to see an official presser by PAF calling out IAF as liars by laying out the complete serial numbers ! They will not do it - because deep down they know they will be caught. All ISPR is doing is shooting through other peoples shoulders like Alan Warnes (who has a business relationship with PAF) , some forum members and twitter posters. I get it - its a coordinated strategy. SO i will wait for an official presser - explaining how they shot down Su 30 and calling out IAF liars (how IAF did with AMRAAM). I was hoping they would do on Feb 27 th - but looks like they chickened out.

It was not a secret, it was open news and the base commander got sacked for his incompetence. You're really underestimating your clandestine network inside Pakistan. India heavily monitors Pakistan's deployment of its major weapons, this is something that cannot be hidden.

Seems like you didnt know this fraticide incident before ! Since you called me a liar for mentioning it. Anyways the point was - PAK has a history of brushing things under the carpet and then releasing it when its a suitable time. This fraticide incident was disclosed after 2 decades when a American publication disclosed it (if i recollect). Didnt the wing co who committed the fraticide become a air commodore ?
Secondly your assertion about clandestine networks - less said its better. I have not confidence in them. Two successive prime miniter (IK Gujural, VP Singh) shut down RAW , cna you believe it? They shut it down. So no confidence.

When someone is desperate to clutch to straws, the mind can be very creative. Lets take one step further, the R73's were teleported by martians to Pakistan and then put on display. Please continue with your creative mind fantasies.

Your choice. Your entire missile programe started by importing complete ballistic missiles from NK as quid pro quo for nuclear know-how. And you are telling me that you cant get your hands on a simple proliferated A2A missile. Afghan bases manned by Russians left behind a lot of stock pile. Perhaps some reading is in order.

I honestly don't get it. What is this ego thing that the Indians have made it about themselves. Its quite simple, PAF just had a good day and IAF had a bad day. It's that simple, PAF was better prepared and executed their drills with a lot more efficiency then the IAF did. Do i think the IAF learnt from this and will be more deadlier the next time, Hell yes. But why make it so much about your ego, coming up with these fantasies of R73 bought from Ebay. Like come on.

NE - this is where you are mistaken. We had lot of learnings and 27th was not a good day for us as much as 26th was a great day for us. We learned our deficiencies which are openly published - lack of SDR, lack of long range A2A , some missing data link and sadly - fraticide. So no ones claiming that we had a great day - in all records it was a better day for PAF. what i absolutely detest - is the fanboy culture that is prelevant in this forum. Placing PAK armed forces above pedestal and as such missing the oppurtunity of critically questioning the PAK armed forces establishment. Lot of things happened during that period that i dont hear anyone questioning critically - at best you all convince yourself with some absurd theories and find solace in that. Classic example - Why did all the PGM's miss their targets ? If the intention was signalling - then why did all the PGM's had such differences in intended targets (no one entertains this type of questions - coz it makes people uncomfortable) , why did PAF close the airspace for 6months ?? (Absurbed theory - coz IAF will force a civilian airliner into PAF airspace and it will trigger war) , why did all the lights go out in karachi , why were mistakes commited by ghafoor in almost all his briefings (IAF did not change its statement even once ! Maintained one single version) - so many more questions. The only outcome was Ghafoor was sacked unceremoniously. If India would have done a similar action that PAF did with similar outcomes then rest assured IAF would have been roasted in media to the point they would have come and appologized.

 

[anathema]

Consider it as my last post
- A mean to acquire missile lock against the target, as WVR R-73 missile can not acquire the lock on its own at 25-30 K range

If the target is within 8-10 KM's then the seeker would acquire it if its within its boresight. If its 25 K range then it was to be radar assisted. So no disagreements.

- Which as per Indian source [as stated previously] was a "Radar Assisted" lock, therefore there must not be any confusion for Abhi about the identity of the target but it is also an establish fact even after reaching India he was not sure what he has targeted as per Indian Claim and he was 'informed' by IAF that it was F-16

Now for your point that he was sure about no presence of Friendly aircraft nearby, I simply want to ask a question that when he was not even aware about the area of his presence, how he was sure that no IAF aircraft was in that area .... ???

I think you genuinely does not understand how this works ! Let me do plain speak in simple words. Abhi and his wingman SQ Leader Vyas climbs out of Srinagar airport , Ground controller tells him to vector to North directions with coordinates . Ground controller gives him sit rep - 'No friendlies in area , presence of bandits. Good luck hunting !' . At this point - Abhi and Vyas knows that there are no friendlies in the area where they are headed.
Does that make it clear ? I have made it very easy - but these are co-ordinated information exchanges. Any professional airforce practices these day in and day out.

was he even aware that his number-2 had deserted him .... ???

no desertion happened. Sq Leader Vyas heard the call on radio to turn cold ! Abhi never heard it since his comms were jammed. It also disproves your earlier theory of all a/c's in the area being jammed.

And if the answer is NO which mean he had degraded situational awareness, here at this stage recall as per your claim that upgraded MiG-21 Bison is not capable to establish identification of target then how after acquired the missile lock he establish the positive identification b/w the friendly or non-cooperative target .... ???

He had sit rep when he was flying out. He lost his SA when he cleared pir panjal ranges ! He only knew that apart from his wing man there were no friendlies in the area - it was only bandits. Here there are 2 theories
(a) Seeker locked and he fired
(b) He climed to altitude and turned kopyo; Launched a radar assisted missile on the bogey. He never knew what he was shooting due to comm jamming.

Don't tell me that Abhi launch the missile without establishing positive identification of the target, as it will not only give Wing Commander of IAF a bad professional reputation but as well as to the IAF as an organization

That is your opinion. Aircombat does not work like that. He had sit rep and knew no friendlies - he acted based on that and launched. By the way if he used his kopyo radar to launch - then perhaps he may have had IFF to identify friendlies vs bandits (this i dont know - i dont think Mig21 even has this capability; It just shows bogeys)

I simply from the start of our discussion emphasis on these points
- IF the Fight was WVR
- How Abhi establish the Identification of the Target
- What was the status of situational Awareness of Abhi
- And what was the crash site of F-16 .... ??? [as highlighted in my second post with you but ignored by you]
- And relative distance of Dogfight and crash sites ..... ??? [as per Indian claims, and again ignored by you]

I have tried my best to explain to you above how air combat works. With regards to f16 crash site - dont know ! Lot of time was spent on searching including analysis of the tadpole that was created. But conclusively cannot tell. This has to be answered by PAF - whenever they disclose in maybe about 2 decades.

Till now you only debated about the situational awareness of Abhi and have establish that he had at least that level of situational awareness in which he could positively establish the identification of the target and could launch the missile

Once again - Abhi could not identify the a/c that he was firing on. It may have been F16 or JF17 or something else. He just knew that it was a bandit.

Secondly even if MiG-21 Bison avionics were unable to differentiate b/w F-16 or Jf-17, Abhi being an experience aviator could easily differentiate between them as at final stages of claimed kill he was just 8-10 km distance [again as per IAF OFFICIAL CLAIM link was already provided in previous post]

Again you make air combat so simple as a DCS mission. R73 has bore sight - He would have fired and turned. It does not mean - he positively id'd the a/c; I am pointing out the fact his a/c does not have capability and he lost his SA due to jamming.

Additionally I don't need to repeat the functional advantages of Airborne AEW&C over Ground Radar stations anyone could google it, so plz understand the scenario which you are presenting could only be right if we discuss about Ground Radars but not with AEW&C, btw this scenario which you have quoted reflect poorly on IAF tactical training in network centric environment.

You clearly have no clue on how radar works. Lets make it very clear - whether its AWACS or Ground radar - the waves cannot penetrate mountains. Its a established fact. You can listen in on the video that i posted. Its USAF aviators discussing combat tactics. Essentially Pir panjal ranges can block AWACS from detecting fighters getting air borne from Srinagar. No idea why you are bring IAF training into the picture..

I understand clearly it's you and your Indian citizens who need to ask the questions from your authorities as I raised about the contradiction in two of her interviews, secondly as Indian reports state that his communications were jammed even before he crossed the LOC read this

At this point its clear - that you are looking a way out. I have explained how this situation happens. How sit rep happens.

So he had no situational awareness as he was not in contact even when he was at the Indian side of LOC

Sq Leader Vyas had complete situation awareness and turned cold. Abhi had SA and at some point when he climbed above pir panjal - he was jammed.

Another important thing is that as per this report F-16 crossed LOC and was returning back to Azad Kashmir Abi was chasing an aircraft but was not even aware of the type of the aircraft ''he was chasing a target" but was informed after his return to India that it was an F-16 does it look logical to you .... ???

Absolutely logical. Aviators chase radar symbology - its not like a car chase whether they are visually chasing a target. So he was not aware of what a/c it is - repeated this countless times but somehow you are doing a rahul dravid (leaving the balls).

Keep in mind in chasing mode Radars and specially missiles have less range then the maximum ranges for headon mode specially missiles usually have half the range of maximum figures in chasing mode, now plz explain to the world that

How Abhi scored a kill against the F-16 from 8-15 km distance in Dogfight but was not even able to establish the identification in such close range in broad daylight .... ????

This is now becoming repeatative. Since its clear to me you do not understand how air combat works. Once again - Boresight ,seeker locks on, he fires and turns. He DOES NOT NEED to view the adversary. He can but he does not need to.I hope you got my responses above - your below points are just a rehash of your assetions.

not me but its Indian media reports which suggest wide area was put under EW cluster by Pakistan .... but it's not that important as I only trying to understand about Abhi's situational awareness which lead to firing protocols to target the claimed F-16 by IAF

Media (PAK as well as Ind) does not understand the difference between SPJ and wide band jammers. Are you depending on them to report accurately. Simply put- Jamming some much a/c's requires infinite power - which PAF does not have. Kaiser Tufail's article (if you are referring to that - since you used the word EW cluster was changed multiple times to match the PAF narrative just like Ghafoor did)

As said earlier it was my last post on this thread now Good luck explaining the queries I have raised to others .....

it is indeed a very involved excercise - especially when i am trying to reply to 2 posters. So i have my assesment and you have yours. F16 was shot down and it will become public in due time. Just the way other incidents in PAK history has been made public. unfortunately you or neither me wont be on this forum to conclude.

Additionally - i would like to ask what exactly are you trying to infer ? whats your assertion ? You have gone in circles and trying to make a point - which i am clearly not understanding. You started with question, did Abhi engage F16 is visual and bvr domain - my response was very clear ! Then you started asking questions on whats the difference between both Abhi and the target ? Clearly you are trying to prove something. Are you saying that Abhi will not take a shot with positively id'ing something OR are you saying he did not have SA to take the shot ? What exactly is the stickling point ?

 

[Wow]

Night Time is like a Snapchat filter

It can even make a mediocre fighter jet look good

 

[Blacklight]

Loved the HD footage - seeing it for the first time. The afterburner and the sound has to be experienced !

Majestic and Su30 are a contradiction. If you are not convinced, send them over and PAF will clear any of your misconceptions.

 

[notorious_eagle]

@anathema I will end things from my side, there is no point in discussing anymore. The issue is, all your arguments lay in fiction and are not backed by any evidence. Fact of the matter is, we all know how things went down on Feb 27 and we all know what the result was. I understand the frustration on your side, despite spending Billions ($) and a promised victory, IAF appeared helpless in-front of the PAF, a foe 5 times smaller. But to point out how flawed your arguments are, for fun i will point out some mistakes on your end.

Classic example - Why did all the PGM's miss their targets ? If the intention was signalling - then why did all the PGM's had such differences in intended targets (no one entertains this type of questions - coz it makes people uncomfortable) ,

The H4's hit their targets with a bullseye. The mere fact you didn't bother to review the video of the A2G attack where the operator locks the Brigade HQ and then turns his targeting pod to the left towards the trees is telling of itself. The mere fact you didn't watch the video, didn't do research but still arguing is embarrassing.

why did PAF close the airspace for 6months ?? (Absurbed theory - coz IAF will force a civilian airliner into PAF airspace and it will trigger war) ,

Ukrainian Airliner shot down by Iran, do some research

why did all the lights go out in karachi ,

This is just desperate on your end. Life continued normal in Karachi lol, but maybe you know more as you were on the ground. Have some respect for IAF, at no point have they ever targeted civilian areas inside Pakistan.

The only outcome was Ghafoor was sacked unceremoniously.

Oh my goodness. You're so right, downgraded to GOC Okara, one of the most coveted and sought after postings within Pakistan Army lol. Seriously bro, this is desperate

If India would have done a similar action that PAF did with similar outcomes then rest assured IAF would have been roasted in media to the point they would have come and appologized.

Na they are good, they gave the lollipop of shooting down an F16 with no evidence, and the Indian Public immediately bought in and were happy.

As said earlier it was my last post on this thread now Good luck explaining the queries I have raised to others .....

Please read the reply above. Some snippets from our dear friend @anathema

- Pakistani H4's missed their mark => Our friend didn't bother to watch the video of the attack
- Lights turned off in Karachi =>
- Asif sacked => Sacked to an even better post of GOC Okara
- Pakistan lacks the capability to track low flying jets in mountain ranges => Didn't research the investments PAF has made to track low flying fighters across LOC. PAF knew exactly where the low flying MIG21's were. This is why Nauman hit the MIG21 with a bullseye
- Balakot strike killed 300 terrorists and destroyed the building structures => https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...standing-at-indian-bombing-site-idUSKCN1QN00V
But the best and most amazing theory is:
- R73 was procured through Ebay =>

I swear, i am not making this shit up.

 

[SIPRA]

@anathema I will end things from my side, there is no point in discussing anymore. The issue is, all your arguments lay in fiction and are not backed by any evidence. Fact of the matter is, we all know how things went down on Feb 27 and we all know what the result was. I understand the frustration on your side, despite spending Billions ($) and a promised victory, IAF appeared helpless in-front of the PAF, a foe 5 times smaller. But to point out how flawed your arguments are, for fun i will point out some mistakes on your end.



The H4's hit their targets with a bullseye. The mere fact you didn't bother to review the video of the A2G attack where the operator locks the Brigade HQ and then turns his targeting pod to the left towards the trees is telling of itself. The mere fact you didn't watch the video, didn't do research but still arguing is embarrassing.



Ukrainian Airliner shot down by Iran, do some research



This is just desperate on your end. Life continued normal in Karachi lol, but maybe you know more as you were on the ground. Have some respect for IAF, at no point have they ever targeted civilian areas inside Pakistan.



Oh my goodness. You're so right, downgraded to GOC Okara, one of the most coveted and sought after postings within Pakistan Army lol. Seriously bro, this is desperate



Na they are good, they gave the lollipop of shooting down an F16 with no evidence, and the Indian Public immediately bought in and were happy.



Please read the reply above. Some snippets from our dear friend @anathema

- Pakistani H4's missed their mark => Our friend didn't bother to watch the video of the attack
- Lights turned off in Karachi =>
- Asif sacked => Sacked to an even better post of GOC Okara
- Pakistan lacks the capability to track low flying jets in mountain ranges => Didn't research the investments PAF has made to track low flying fighters across LOC. PAF knew exactly where the low flying MIG21's were. This is why Nauman hit the MIG21 with a bullseye
- Balakot strike killed 300 terrorists and destroyed the building structures => https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...standing-at-indian-bombing-site-idUSKCN1QN00V
But the best and most amazing theory is:
- R73 was procured through Ebay =>

I swear, i am not making this shit up.

My salute to your endurance and patience, and that of @HRK, for responding to such Indian posters.

 

[Psychic]

It actually shows very poor BVR tactics by PAF - it may very well be a tactic (sort of hail mary pass) . Employing BVR at Dmax1 range - any fighter can defeat it by out maneuvering.

The purpose was to ensure safety of the strike aircraft. And that objective was achieved. Any aircraft kill achieved that day was a bonus, including that doomed chopper. Besides it is nothing more than an internet claim that Amraams were fired at max ranges.

You can call it "poor tactics" or whatever soothes your ego.

If making enemy run away was not a good tactic then perhaps bugging out of the battlefield without even firing in anger and landing low on fuel were good tactics.

And let alone the holes in tin shed roof theory by IAF professionals being spoonfed to the entire Bharati nation.

What did the doctors, tell you. You must take your medicine...

He is content with IAF dodging AMRAAMs, losing a mig, a chopper and its face.

 

[Cuirassier]

The purpose was to ensure safety of the strike aircraft. And that objective was achieved. Any aircraft kill achieved that day was a bonus, including that doomed chopper. Besides it is nothing more than an internet claim that Amraams were fired at max ranges.

You can call it "poor tactics" or whatever soothes your ego.

If making enemy run away was not a good tactic then perhaps bugging out of the battlefield without even firing in anger and landing low on fuel were good tactics.

And let alone the holes in tin shed roof theory by IAF professionals being spoonfed to the entire Bharati nation.


He is content with IAF dodging AMRAAMs, losing a mig, a chopper and its face.

Only 2 AMRAAMs were fired that day - had there been more, there would've been equal number of a/c claims. Baloney by en.

 

[anathema]

@anathema I will end things from my side, there is no point in discussing anymore. The issue is, all your arguments lay in fiction and are not backed by any evidence. Fact of the matter is, we all know how things went down on Feb 27 and we all know what the result was.

Huh - the entire discussion is conjecture. Since there has been no official briefing from PAF - its clear they dont want to open pandora's box. Other than bravado statements from AVM Paracha and sponsored articles from Warnes - its nothing.

I understand the frustration on your side, despite spending Billions ($) and a promised victory, IAF appeared helpless in-front of the PAF, a foe 5 times smaller. But to point out how flawed your arguments are, for fun i will point out some mistakes on your end.

Let me start by pointing all the flaws in your statement below.

The H4's hit their targets with a bullseye. The mere fact you didn't bother to review the video of the A2G attack where the operator locks the Brigade HQ and then turns his targeting pod to the left towards the trees is telling of itself. The mere fact you didn't watch the video, didn't do research but still arguing is embarrassing.

Bulls eye - are you serios ? I have watched the videos - H4 was intended to take out brigade hq but clearly looks like it deviated from its path - not by choice but by force. If SIGNALING was PAF's intent - then it does not explain by PGM's fell so much apart. Every PGM (11 of them) fell 500 mts to 1.5 k from target..its not targeting, its absence of targeting.Again lack of critical questioning of PAK armed forces from its domestic audience shows - its a fanboy culture

Ukrainian Airliner shot down by Iran, do some research

Its laughable that you are equating Irans AD mistake to justify locking up of your air space by 6 months. Are you saying that you dont have confidence in your AD ? By the way - Iran airspace was not closed and is still open. PAF was spooked big time - it closed its air space of 6 months & on the contrary - India had its air space open big time with civie flights operating from border areas.

This is just desperate on your end. Life continued normal in Karachi lol, but maybe you know more as you were on the ground. Have some respect for IAF, at no point have they ever targeted civilian areas inside Pakistan.

Videos are still around NE. Its not desperate - its a fact. Karachi was blacked out. Dont know what happened - but PAK high command was scared of something.

Oh my goodness. You're so right, downgraded to GOC Okara, one of the most coveted and sought after postings within Pakistan Army lol. Seriously bro, this is desperate

Fair enuf - will take that back. I should not comment on postings. I dont know enuf there.

Na they are good, they gave the lollipop of shooting down an F16 with no evidence, and the Indian Public immediately bought in and were happy.

Indian public screwed them ! We are not happy. Mig 21s comms were jammed, absnece of long stick in A2A missile and Fracticide. We had court martial proceedings intiated. But what is utterly visible here - is utter lack of questioning of PAF and Pak armed forces in general by its domestic audience. All i hear on this forum is justification inspite of so much of hmm contrarian evidence. Do you have any learnings ? Do you have any article/news item critical of this entire thing - there should surely be learnings. But you will never hear about it.

- Pakistani H4's missed their mark => Our friend didn't bother to watch the video of the attack

Poor markmanship - being positioned as grandiosity of heart. All the PGM's fell at varying distances.

- Lights turned off in Karachi =>

Videos present right here on this forum

- Pakistan lacks the capability to track low flying jets in mountain ranges => Didn't research the investments PAF has made to track low flying fighters across LOC. PAF knew exactly where the low flying MIG21's were. This is why Nauman hit the MIG21 with a bullseye

Extremely poor. Shows utter lack of radar and its capabilities. ERIEYE, PHALCON , WEDGETAIl - no one can look through mountains and the airport situated in the valley. Nauman took down Mig 21 after it took down F16.

- Balakot strike killed 300 terrorists and destroyed the building structures => https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...standing-at-indian-bombing-site-idUSKCN1QN00V

BBC journos not allowed to access Balakot site, Journos took to Balakot site after 45 days and was never taken to main site. It was all guided tour. Residents do not talk to journos for lack of reprisal from army

But the best and most amazing theory is:
- R73 was procured through Ebay =>

PAK brought entire nodong missiles from Nkorea. getting hands on R73 is not a big deal - plenty of stock left behind russian armed forces.

I swear, i am not making this shit up.

You can convince your self - but man this shit stinks. PAF and PAK armed forces as usual hides information from public. It works well for us. 71, Kargil, Siachen, Balakot , plenty more- PAK armed forces keeps it people in dark. Reason being - they are not armed forces , its a business organization. Its all about MANGING PUBLIC PERCEPTION. Very good for us - coz when the ballon goes up we will make it count.

 

[airmarshal]

This is the new F-16 version. No matter what you put in your Su-30, it cant beat F-16.

In the simulation at 3:37, its is striking Su-30s out of the sky.

 

[HRK]

as I can not edit my previous post therefore just for sake of record posting two official Indian sources to keep the record straight and to dispel the factually wrong claim made by Indian member in this thread that:
The Upgraded MiG-21 Bison was not able to identify type of aerial target and because of this reason Abhi was not aware about the identity of the claimed target and upon his return to India was informed that it was F-16

1- For this First Note MiG-21 were equipped with Tarang Radar Warning Receiver (Tarang RWR)for this see page-71 of CAG Report-2014 [click here]

2- Tarang RWR [official link] is capable of Identification of the Target