Madrassa reforms - Suggestions

[CriticalThought]

Right there you've made the assertion that people who claim to be victims of Muslims and their religion have no claim to exercise critical judgment upon them. So you're moniker is a misnomer - that is, a cheat.

They can make critical judgement based on whatever system of ethics they follow. Just don't try to 're-interpret' Islam for us Muslims. Their opinion holds no credibility amongst Muslims. In general, it is highly logical, if you want to really understand a religion, ask the people whose forefathers have been following it for thousands of years.

So it's not enough to be a Muslim, but you have to be the right sort of Muslim. That's a fine recipe for conflicting claims to leadership, right? And how is such a dispute supposed to be resolved without violence and tyranny?

The dispute is to be resolved in the light of Quran and Sunnah which are shining beacons of Divine Guidance for us. I mean, do you really believe that Allah the Almighty has left His final religion in a state where its followers cannot sort out right from wrong?

And since discerning the intentions are (by your definition) not part of Shariat how are Muslims supposed to discern them?

The 'Mizaaj-e-Shariat', or the intention of Shariat, is taught from teacher to student, and passed from heart to heart. We have scholars who can retrace this line of tutelage right back to Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam. Along with the rules and regulations of Shariat, the main thing taught in Madressahs is piety, Godfearliness, and goodness of character. Now it does take all sorts, so you see the good with the bad. I agree Madressahs need to do a better job, but calling them 'factories of terrorism', or calling for their demolition is ignorance of the highest order.

In the recent arguments about the new Sindh conversion law it was claimed such man-made laws were unnecessary. As near as I can tell it's because according to the law's opponents a Muslim should be allowed to exercise his will over non-Muslims and lesser Muslims as he wishes and only face divine judgement for his deeds after death. Do you agree or disagree with this?

I do not have to agree or disagree. Our religion scholars are on top of the situation, and already the Sindh Government is reviewing the law. Alhamdulillah we have people of such knowledge and upstanding who are here to challenge the vile machinations of this Western backed anti-Islam lobby.

A terrorist slaughtering cult is totally my ball game, where amd how do I sign up...


You really believe that these mullahs give a shit about the courts they label western, secular and satanic. The government took Qadri to court and see where it lead, the government tried to take the red mosque clerics to court and do you see where that lead, ever day the LEAs take terrorists and their abettors into custody only to be released under the pressure if certain political parties. They are traitors of the highest order and do you knw what the punishment for treachery in Islam is, it the death penalty. The idea of Madrassahs is not bad in itself but the way they are raised, funded and propagated is of concern. They are funded by outside powers to meet their grand strategic and sectarian designs and have no regard for national interests.
These madaris are responsible for churning out tens of thousands of ignorant, if not borderline brainwashed, youths who believe in a very rigid and impractical interpretation of Islam.
I am not a westernised elite, I am just a middle class guy who is fed up of being labelled an insolent libtard when I advocate knowledge of the deen along with knowledge of the world.

If you ever registered an actual party with the official agenda of being a terrorist slaughtering cult, the courts will send you to jail just like you would deserve.

Your opinion of the judicial system is tarred by your own vested interests. If the courts were to deal with them strictly you would be happy. That is, you are not interested in the correct application of law. Rather, you have made up a law in your mind and you want it promulgated by hook or by crook. Such people are usually called 'Man on a mission', are highly unstable, and it is best to find them in real life and put them in their place before the become a menace to society.

 

[Solomon2]

They can make critical judgement based on whatever system of ethics they follow. Just don't try to 're-interpret' Islam for us Muslims. Their opinion holds no credibility amongst Muslims.

Agreed. Weirdly, this doesn't stop Muslims from occasionally asking me what the "correct" version of Islam is.

In general, it is highly logical, if you want to really understand a religion, ask the people whose forefathers have been following it for thousands of years.

The argument of one of my Muslim classmates in college - an Indian - is that parents have the right to lie to their children about what is true and what is not in their own self-interest. This was seconded by a Palestinian Muslim later. If this attitude is representative I don't see how your logic can be valid, do you?

The dispute is to be resolved in the light of Quran and Sunnah which are shining beacons of Divine Guidance for us. I mean, do you really believe that Allah the Almighty has left His final religion in a state where its followers cannot sort out right from wrong?

In Islam the line of prophets ends with Mohammed, right? So if Muslim leaders, spiritual or temporal, choose to stray from the "beacons" arms as tools to enforce conformity who is to deny them?

The 'Mizaaj-e-Shariat', or the intention of Shariat, is taught from teacher to student, and passed from heart to heart. We have scholars who can retrace this line of tutelage right back to Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam.

Do Pakistanis really want to be ruled by the Taliban?

Along with the rules and regulations of Shariat, the main thing taught in Madressahs is piety, Godfearliness, and goodness of character.

Do Pakistani Muslims truly have a fear of God? My reading suggests they do not. The Brits tried importing imams into India in an attempt to instill such, as their administrators judged that criminal cases were failing because even distant relatives would swear false oaths to provide phony alibis. The Brits judged the Arabs more honorable and thought stricter Islam was the reason. They misjudged: the difference between the Indian mind and Semitic mind was greater than that.

I do not have to agree or disagree. Our religion scholars are on top of the situation, and already the Sindh Government is reviewing the law. Alhamdulillah we have people of such knowledge and upstanding who are here to challenge the vile machinations of this Western backed anti-Islam lobby.

So I'm right? Islam in Pakistan exists so Muslims can abuse others, with only the fear of Allah as a restraint?

 

[Zarvan]

Madrassahs facilitating terrorism constitute important, yet far from exclusive, avenues of radicalisation.


One need not attend a madrassah to become a terrorist, neither in Pakistan nor anywhere else.


The literature on Pakistani madrassahs suggests that the presence of a madrassah is an unnecessary and insufficient precondition for terrorism. With regard to necessity, the counterfactual – that the absence of a madrassah is accompanied by the absence of terrorism – fails to withstand empirical scrutiny.


Ironically, the single event that most successfully brought madrassahs to the forefront of international attention – 9/11 – was executed by 19 men, none of whom graduated from a madrassah


In examining the profiles of 79 terrorists involved in "five of the worst anti-Western terrorist strikes in recent memory" (the 1993 World Trade Center bombings, the 1998 Africa embassy bombings, September 11, the 2002 Bali nightclub bombings, and the 2005 London bombings), Peter Bergen and Swati Pandey find the average terrorist to be well educated. While 54 per cent of their sample had attended college, the authors point out that "only 52 per cent of Americans can claim similar academic credentials."


Marc Sageman similarly observes a relatively strong correlation between educational achievement and terrorism. He samples 172 terrorists to find that a majority exhibit above-average educational qualifications with respect to the societies to which they belong.


The counterfactual has also been probed in a Pakistan-specific context. To the extent that the 9/11 Commission Report is correct in terming madrassahs "incubators of violent extremism," in Pakistan they do not operate alone. According to Andrew Coulson, "the presumption that Pakistan's state schools promote tolerance is mistaken.


As pointed out by Pervez Hoodbhoy, Pakistani schools, and not just madrassahs, are churning out fiery zealots, fuelled with a passion for jihad and martyrdom.


The Sustainable Development Policy Institute (SDPI) tells us that the public school curriculum exposes students to "material that is directly contrary to the goals and values of a progressive, moderate and democratic Pakistan."


Another indication that non-religious schools conduce to militancy emerges from recent work on de-radicalisation. Project Sabawoon, aimed at "the de-radicalisation and de-indoctrination of captured young suicide bombers" in the Pakistani province of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa houses 84 young radicals, a majority of whom studied in government schools (not madrassahs) prior to their recruitment by militants.


http://www.terrorismanalysts.com/pt/index.php/pot/article/view/116/html

Yes most of it is crap and nothing else. Mr for your information the Army has collected data on the people of TTP and guess what less than 2 % of them have been to Madrassah even in those most were who ran away within first two years. There are more university students and school students than Madrassah students in TTP and those who Army have eliminated.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Army has collected data on the people of TTP and guess what less than 2 % of them have been to Madrassah even in those most were who ran away within first two years. .

^ Source please

Of 15,000 youths from KPK who died in Afghan war, sixty percent (9000) had come from Madrassahs (Muhammad Amir Rana. Gateway to Terrorism. Millennium Press, 2002, 60.)


Many of the Madrassahs established by Zia regime during Soviet-Afghan war were actually formed as militant training centers to support the Afghan war and called Madrassahs to “Islamically legitimize their operations and to solicit funds from all over the Muslim world” ... These Madrassahs were never shut down .. Most Madrassahs linked to militancy and terrorism since the mid 1990s trace their origin to the late 1980s.. Many of the TTP's leaders are veterans of the fighting in Afghanistan..... It seems rather unlikely that only 2 % of TTP terrorists come from Madrassahs .....

 

[Zarvan]

^ Source please

Of 15,000 youths from KPK who died in Afghan war, sixty percent (9000) had come from Madrassahs (Muhammad Amir Rana. Gateway to Terrorism. Millennium Press, 2002, 60.)


Many of the Madrassahs established by Zia regime during Soviet-Afghan war were actually formed as militant training centers to support the Afghan war and called Madrassahs to “Islamically legitimize their operations and to solicit funds from all over the Muslim world” ... These Madrassahs were never shut down .. Most Madrassahs linked to militancy and terrorism since the mid 1990s trace their origin to the late 1980s.. Many of the TTP's leaders are veterans of the fighting in Afghanistan..... It seems rather unlikely that only 2 % of TTP terrorists come from Madrassahs .....

No they are not most are total illiterates never have been to either Madrassah or School. Than there are school students. That too who mostly have studied up 3 to 4th standard than there are guys who have done matric and than those who are from Universities. And the Madrassahs through those 2 % which were initially thought to be Madrassas whose students joined militancy later turned out to be empty building or training centre no Hifz or Darse Quran was being done there. Yes less than 2 % of TTP and other militant groups belong to Madrassah. Even most TTP leadership which is killed hardly were from Madrassahs. Many were local tribals some known for driving Taxi and van others had other profession. Normal Guys with no link to militancy until Musharraf decided to become USA puppet and send forces in Tribal areas which after 3 years of operation resulted in all of these normal workers becoming most dreaded terrorists. This data is not released publicly but would come forward soon.

 

[Mutakalim]

4. Three to six month courses in affiliation with NCA (National College of Arts) in different trades.

What trades exactly? Kindly explain further.

 

[WarFariX]

Yes i am doing msc from one and apko kiya log apni zati zindagi mein kiya kartey hain apney kaam sey kaam rakhain bus


Madrassay mein Kasur waley kaam hotey hain

to phir aplog bho apne kam se kam rakhen..madrason ke khilaf bolne se pehle

 

[Zarvan]

For madrassas:-
- Remove the jaahil sectarianists
- introduce worldly education as we.
- make them follow islam
- ban use of sticks or hands for beating students.
- Appointment of Physical Education Teacher and start of sports activities.
- establishment of ministry of madrassa
- Give university education in an islamic enviroent with segregation.
- bring as many existing madrassas under ministry of madrassas as possible and make sure they get no foreign funding and no terroristic views are taught.
- teach english as it helps to access what the world is doing

For school ,colleges , universities :-
- Convert as many schools as possible to pakistani federal board system .
- Give good islamic education throughout the metric, inter and university.
- as the country is islamic , impose ban on co education no matter what its advantages are
- keep a strict watch on what each institution is teaching and scan through each book provided as institutions such as Beaconhouse system , The city chool etc are introducing the western (non-islamic thoughts) liberalism and secularis which in turn would spoil the moralic values of students.
- regularly survey the students and parents of educational institutes to check whether any staff is asking for bribes or whether student is tortured or not.
- introduce CCTV strict supervision in every institution

@Zarvan kaisa kaha?

Mostly agree with main reform which is needed and should start from big well funded Madrassas that they should have schools with modern day regular education upto 12th standard I am talking that student who want to do Dars e Nizami should do first Matric than should do either FSC or FA or ICOM or similar. And than Dars e Nizami should start. Even during Dars e Nizami Madrassas should encourage there students to continue there study of let say other subjects and do BA and than MA.

As for schools well first introduce Arabic language from class 3 where you teach Arabic as language just like you teach English and Urdu as language I mean in first year or let say if we start teaching Arabic from 3rd class than student in that year learn basil alphabets and other things of Arabic language and than in next year how to write words and make sentences in Arabic and keep growing. Also Islamiyat should have more than 1 book and really thick books which include chapters on Aqeedah and Eman and Haqooq ul ULLAH and Haqooq ul Ebad and Islamic History and other Islamic issues. starting from prep to class 8. In 9th and 10th class students should be taught a Tafseer and given books on seerat and other Islamic issues to read and there viva should be taken on those books. In FA and FSC along with Tafseer books of Hadees should also be taught. Also more Islamic education needs to be integrated on BSC and BA level and also MA and MSC and MPHIL.

Really? do i need to tell you what ''happens'' in madrassas?

Still better than becoming terrorists and will you pls stop shouting?

Yes for those who think being a traitor and puppet of west and enemies of Islam is not a issue. Who are ashamed of there birth and who are basically slaves of west.

 

[Mutakalim]

How about just close them down?

What is your response if Madrassa Students ask to close down all Colleges and Universities? People who thanked your post should also be ashamed of themselves. Extremist minds like you are responsible for the growth of extremism in our society. Extremist without a beard.

I am 100% sure that such attempt will never be made by any Pakistani government.

 

[CriticalThought]

Agreed. Weirdly, this doesn't stop Muslims from occasionally asking me what the "correct" version of Islam is.

Your perception of Islam seems to be limited by the kind of Muslims you have encountered. And that's fair enough I guess.

The argument of one of my Muslim classmates in college - an Indian - is that parents have the right to lie to their children about what is true and what is not in their own self-interest. This was seconded by a Palestinian Muslim later. If this attitude is representative I don't see how your logic can be valid, do you?

Please explain the complete context of the discussion. There is the school of parenting where if the child is prone to wandering into dangerous places the parents say there is a monster in there. This has nothing to do with teaching the child about Islam. Although from an Islamic point of view, you NEVER tell a lie except in very dire circumstances.

Many Muslims today do not even think about Islamic teachings when they are carrying out daily activities. Which is a shame. But, you need to untangle personal actions from the actual teachings of Islam. This is for you own good, because your success in afterlife depends on understanding the true teachings of Islam.

In Islam the line of prophets ends with Mohammed, right? So if Muslim leaders, spiritual or temporal, choose to stray from the "beacons" arms as tools to enforce conformity who is to deny them?

After the last Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam, the task of safeguarding the Quran and Islam is taken up by Allah the Almighty Himself. And ordinary Muslims have been commanded to perform 'Amr-bil-Ma'aroof was Nahi 'Anil Munkar', i.e., exhort people towards goodness and stop them from evil. This task is enjoined upon all Muslims. Similarly, high rewards have been placed in memorizing the Quran, and acquiring the knowledge of religion. The rewards are so high, that many true Muslims desire their children to become Huffaaz (people who have memorized the whole Quran by heart) and 'Aalim (religious scholars). This ensures that the true knowledge of religion continues from heart to heart. This whole system is safeguarded by Allah the Almighty Himself, and as the likes of Uncle Sam are realizing after banging their heads on a rock, there isn't a single thing they can do about it. They will meet unshakeable resistance in every avenue they try.

Do Pakistanis really want to be ruled by the Taliban?

How do the Taliban come into the picture here?

Do Pakistani Muslims truly have a fear of God? My reading suggests they do not. The Brits tried importing imams into India in an attempt to instill such, as their administrators judged that criminal cases were failing because even distant relatives would swear false oaths to provide phony alibis. The Brits judged the Arabs more honorable and thought stricter Islam was the reason. They misjudged: the difference between the Indian mind and Semitic mind was greater than that.

Unfortunately, that is true. Our state of credence and faith is poor indeed. But there are efforts being done by appropriate people to bring about a change. May Allah help them in their good intentions.

So I'm right? Islam in Pakistan exists so Muslims can abuse others, with only the fear of Allah as a restraint?

Excuse me, how are others being abused by Muslims? Can you be a bit more specific please?

 

[Mutakalim]

There should be only one system of the education in the country.

One of the main reason of growing rift between society is current Pakistani three-tier educational system.

 

[The Sandman]

Yes for those who think being a traitor and puppet of west and enemies of Islam is not a issue. Who are ashamed of there birth and who are basically slaves of west.

Since when thinking good for your country = traitors and slaves of west? this kind of extremist mindset has damaged our country enough already we need to get rid of it if we want to become a successful country what these madrassas are giving us except terrorists, extremists and embarrassment in front of the whole world?? they're nothing but terror factories and ENEMY OF ISLAM whaat? how?

 

[Mutakalim]

Make them free of jaahil teachers first..

Should Appoint authentic Ulamas who teach Islam and just Islam not how to be devided into Firqaa Jaat..

Who will establish the authenticity of Scholars?

There should be no Deobandi Madrasaa, Sunni Madrasaa, Brelvi Madrasaa and bla bla.. put out such teachers who are injecting this poison of separate sects.

Just wait for Imam Mahdi. No person or state has the power to do such a feat.

 

[The Sandman]

For a few extremist members here.

 

[Zarvan]

Since when thinking good for your country = traitors and slaves of west? this kind of extremist mindset has damaged our country enough already we need to get rid of it if we want to become a successful country what these madrassas are giving us except terrorists, extremists and embarrassment in front of the whole world?? they're nothing but terror factories and ENEMY OF ISLAM whaat? how?

These Madrassas are giving us Islam and scholars of Islam. The real embarrassment are those slaves of west who act like pet dogs of west and are always hungry and begging for more bone and dollars from west. Your modern universities and other institutions have produced more terrorists than Madrassas.

 

[The Sandman]

It is widely accepted that the Pakistani leadership is 'unashamedly Anglo-phile.' Educated by christian priests to inculcate western values in them.

Whom are you quoting? me or SaG?