LY-80 deliveries to Pakistan complete

[Maarkhoor]

The PAF is the most corrupt(per head count and gain) of all the three services according to many people who work in selling equipment to our military.

Sir can I ask one personal question?

Did you rejected by armed forces many times?
I saw same behavior from those who fail to clear ISSB despite many attempts.

 

[R Wing]

Actually Top Brass do make the best strategic decisions since they understand the threat perspective better than us. We usually have limited information about many aspects of warfare, where as they don't. There has been a trend on this forum to "doubt" and "complain" against the Decision making authorities of Pakistan and it's Military. Unless we have a member who has served in MO Dte, T&E Dte and Arms Dte, any of these Dte's, states on PDF that deficiency or shortage has occurred in terms of a weapon system, i would take your post and other poster's posts doubting capabilities of Top brass, as mere propaganda against Pakistan. This is not the first time that im seeing such kinds of posts against Pakistan Military, in the age of internet and forum, most of the news comes from media and then contacts. Since leverage is given here on freedom of speech, so everyone can raise a hand and say that Military Generals are this and that, doesn't work the same way in real life.

Why does PAF want more F-16's and why isn't HQ-9 inducted, there are many old threads and posts which answer those queries, try reading posts of ThinkTank members on such topics, maybe you can get an idea, however stop being a victim of hybrid war against Top leadership and doubting their decision making skills.

Since your heart is in the right place, I'll let your implicit accusations slide. @Horus knows what I do.

Let's just say that "my imaginary friend" helps all those dtes fight hybrid warfare. And a big part of that fight is letting the Top Brass know that their lack of will to do what's necessary at the right time will continue to cause the country hugely in terms of blood and treasure. Thankfully, they agree --- but few have the balls to risk their career to do something truly revolutionary/daring because there's implicit risk.

Also, you might want to note that I didn't question their motives. Most I have worked with do feel a huge sense of patriotism. Like you, I believe that social media and forums like these have given all kinds of idiots and subversive elements an equal voice --- which can cause a lot of trouble.

The fundamental difference between you and I seems to be that I have the ability to tell the Generals, including those in my family, where they are wrong. I am always for far more aggressive action, and thankfully many key people have started to agree.

Here's a short list:
-treat corrupt politicians as terrorists (economic terrorists) and go after them with the same zeal, resources and daring as our CT ops

-treat R&AW officers using Afghan soil to sponsor terrorism against our innocent civilians as fair targets; introduce a fear of consequences / some negative consequences for them

-by re-implementing tit-for-tat attacks, raise the cost for India to support terror in Pakistan

-crush PTM through a sophisticated campaign of narrative management and kinetic action

 

[CriticalThought]

Since your heart is in the right place, I'll let your implicit accusations slide. @Horus knows what I do.

Let's just say that "my imaginary friend" helps all those dtes fight hybrid warfare. And a big part of that fight is letting the Top Brass know that their lack of will to do what's necessary at the right time will continue to cause the country hugely in terms of blood and treasure. Thankfully, they agree --- but few have the balls to risk their career to do something truly revolutionary/daring because there's implicit risk.

Also, you might want to note that I didn't question their motives. Most I have worked with do feel a huge sense of patriotism. Like you, I believe that social media and forums like these have given all kinds of idiots and subversive elements an equal voice --- which can cause a lot of trouble.

The fundamental difference between you and I seems to be that I have the ability to tell the Generals, including those in my family, where they are wrong. I am always for far more aggressive action, and thankfully many key people have started to agree.

Here's a short list:
-treat corrupt politicians as terrorists (economic terrorists) and go after them with the same zeal, resources and daring as our CT ops

-treat R&AW officers using Afghan soil to sponsor terrorism against our innocent civilians as fair targets; introduce a fear of consequences / some negative consequences for them

-by re-implementing tit-for-tat attacks, raise the cost for India to support terror in Pakistan

-crush PTM through a sophisticated campaign of narrative management and kinetic action

Good. Nice to know this. Keep up the good work.

 

[Signalian]

Since your heart is in the right place, I'll let your implicit accusations slide. @Horus knows what I do.

Let's just say that "my imaginary friend" helps all those dtes fight hybrid warfare. And a big part of that fight is letting the Top Brass know that their lack of will to do what's necessary at the right time will continue to cause the country hugely in terms of blood and treasure. Thankfully, they agree --- but few have the balls to risk their career to do something truly revolutionary/daring because there's implicit risk.

Also, you might want to note that I didn't question their motives. Most I have worked with do feel a huge sense of patriotism. Like you, I believe that social media and forums like these have given all kinds of idiots and subversive elements an equal voice --- which can cause a lot of trouble.

The fundamental difference between you and I seems to be that I have the ability to tell the Generals, including those in my family, where they are wrong. I am always for far more aggressive action, and thankfully many key people have started to agree.

Here's a short list:
-treat corrupt politicians as terrorists (economic terrorists) and go after them with the same zeal, resources and daring as our CT ops

-treat R&AW officers using Afghan soil to sponsor terrorism against our innocent civilians as fair targets; introduce a fear of consequences / some negative consequences for them

-by re-implementing tit-for-tat attacks, raise the cost for India to support terror in Pakistan

-crush PTM through a sophisticated campaign of narrative management and kinetic action

You have your own limited perception of things and when your limited perception is compared to an officer who has spent 30+ years wearing the military uniform, things start to look very bleak from your end. That's where your part of the story starts dwindling.

My concern is not what you do, neither whom you try to approach, i am least bothered. I will however step inside the picture when you start pouring out words which seem to malign the image of Pakistan, its Government and the Military. If you say you have the approach or the ideas, then you should also learn to address the ideas in the way they should be addressed without pointing fingers at the very machinery to whom you think you are thankful to for lending an ear.

The fundamental difference between you and me is that I tend to portray Pakistan and it's Military in a positive manner, which is actually a true presentation of it factually. While you may claim this or that, which any tom dck harry can on the forum, your words and your manner of explanation doesn't reflect a positive vibe. For starters you chose a SAM thread to address your agenda, makes me ponder if you really know whom to speak what, in real life actually as you claim in your post. When a member doesn't know where to post what, a basic ethic of posting, it becomes harder to believe that he actually knows what he is doing or just opens his mouth anywhere and starts blabbering. I have asked you before also that take your points to a different thread, this is a SAM thread. I have no interest discussing politicians, PTM and RAW on a SAM related thread. I am not a mod but somethings are just common sense. The only reason im replying you here is not get the image of Pakistan or Military maligned in any way, since any acquisition of a weapon system whether in Army, AirForce or Navy, invites lots of mud slinging at top brass, a trend which i am now getting tired of !

Since you tagged Horus already, why don't you request Horus to move your posts to a better suited thread or open a thread and we can discuss there. I will be more than happy to address all your issues elsewhere.

 

[Armchair]

Mate the amount of money this will need can be used to equip PAF with fighter jet squadrons, thing that is actually meant and designed to be an offensive weapon. Having SAM 50km from border is far too much of a risk. At some key positions, yes, all along the border as an offensive weapon, not feasible and not not practiced!

Hi Arsalan, you don't need to place them all along the border, if you re-read what I wrote, I said they should be constantly shifted around. They can be fewer in number (and not so many as to be a wall, which was the image you presented).

This would be a layered defense. I think that such an option is better than having only fighter aircraft to defend your skies. It is also a relatively cheap option, because there is no need for constant training, and the cost of the systems are much lower, if a local LRSAM is built.

I really don't think PAF should ignore SAMs as they have done. Rather, I think their ignoring a meaningful IADS has been because of the institutional problem of having fighter jocks dominate the decision making hierarchy.

 

[Arsalan]

Hi Arsalan, you don't need to place them all along the border, if you re-read what I wrote, I said they should be constantly shifted around. They can be fewer in number (and not so many as to be a wall, which was the image you presented).

This would be a layered defense. I think that such an option is better than having only fighter aircraft to defend your skies. It is also a relatively cheap option, because there is no need for constant training, and the cost of the systems are much lower, if a local LRSAM is built.

I really don't think PAF should ignore SAMs as they have done. Rather, I think their ignoring a meaningful IADS has been because of the institutional problem of having fighter jocks dominate the decision making hierarchy.

Dear my point is the same. You need them in hundreds, then you need medium range SAM to protect these and QR SAM to protect them and perhaps CIWS as well as a final layers. Its all too complex and expensive. That is the only reason you dont see any country deploying SAM as an offensive weapons, surely there is a reason.

The mobile QR SAM may find limited offensive role with fast moving armored formations but that is it.

@Armchair leave aside taking down jets. There is still threat from Brahmos and dumb, low cost projectiles offer a good solution to utilize saturation tactics against them. It also sets us on the path towards smart long range projectiles in the long term future. The disconcerting aspect is that no one is thinking along these lines.

That my friend will be a defensive deployment, no? So we come back to that same point. These systems, low cost projectiles or high end radar guided missiles will have been and will be deployed as defensive weapon systems.

 

[CriticalThought]

That my friend will be a defensive deployment, no?

The lines between offence and defence become blurry in offensive-defence.

 

[Arsalan]

The lines between offense and defence become blurry in offensive-defence.

Sounds good to hear but that do not changes the fact that we will be using such systems to DEFEND key assets. That is what everyone does and there is surely some reason for it.


@R Wing @Signalian thank you both for sharing your views on the defense procurement, corruption or lack of it! I feel that both of you have one common goal and purpose for these posts and that is betterment of the country and its forces, even though you two might have disagreed in the argument. However this is not an appropriate thread for this discussion plus i think you have both expressed your point of view. Perhaps we should agree to disagree and move on (Or if necessary take the discussion to an appropriate thread. Tag me there please if you decide to do that)

 

[CriticalThought]

Sounds good to hear but that do not changes the fact that we will be using such systems to DEFEND key assets. That is what everyone does and there is surely some reason for it.

You are overly simplifying what everyone does. And since aerial warfare between equal adversaries has not taken place for many decades, we don't even have a true measure of what 'everyone does'. But using logic and analysis, one can see how air defence can be potentially converted into an offensive measure through an area denial strategy. So your attempt to brush aside the ideas presented falls flat on its face.

 

[Arsalan]

You are overly simplifying what everyone does. And since aerial warfare between equal adversaries has not taken place for many decades, we don't even have a true measure of what 'everyone does'. But using logic and analysis, one can see how air defence can be potentially converted into an offensive measure through an area denial strategy. So your attempt to brush aside the ideas presented falls flat on its face.

There have not been war between equal adversaries but we are taking about the deployment techniques and uses of the system. Like we know that Ballistic missiles are more of strategic weapons than tactical ones despite them being used in any modern war (talking about medium to long range). It is all about studying the design philosophy of a certain system. Surface to Air missiles are not meant to be deployed along border or 50Km inside the border to act as a fence. No SAM system have been deployed like this. Israel do use some Air Def systems along its border but:

1. They have a small area/country to cover.
2. Even they use them as defensive weapons.

The offensive use of SAM will come when you have Quick Response Surface to Air missiles fixed on mobile platforms and moving with armored columns. The idea of a LONG RANGE SAM deployed at border to act as an offensive weapons, well, not happening! No matter how aggressively to want to pitch this idea.

 

[CriticalThought]

There have not been war between equal adversaries but we are taking about the deployment techniques and uses of the system. Like we know that Ballistic missiles are more of strategic weapons than tactical ones despite them being used in any modern war (talking about medium to long range). It is all about studying the design philosophy of a certain system. Surface to Air missiles are not meant to be deployed along border or 50Km inside the border to act as a fence. No SAM system have been deployed like this. Israel do use some Air Def systems along its border but:

1. They have a small area/country to cover.
2. Even they use them as defensive weapons.

The offensive use of SAM will come when you have Quick Response Surface to Air missiles fixed on mobile platforms and moving with armored columns. The idea of a LONG RANGE SAM deployed at border to act as an offensive weapons, well, not happening! No matter how aggressively to want to pitch this idea.

Your interpretation of 'offensive' is limited. If I am able to understand correctly, you use 'offensive' to mean actively shoot down aircraft/airborne systems. But offence is a general concept. If you force the enemy into a narrow corridor and shoot them down using your aircrafts, you have just used SAMs in a purely offensive role, without actually shooting any aircraft with them.

In a war where supersonic cruise missiles such as Brahmos may be utilized, you want to go on the offence but Brahmos threatens your forward defences. You need a multi-layered solution to try and take it our at various ranges. Are you going to wait till the missile comes within 30 km to shoot it down? Your whole conceptualization is stuck in the 20th century concept of warfare.

 

[R Wing]

You have your own limited perception of things and when your limited perception is compared to an officer who has spent 30+ years wearing the military uniform, things start to look very bleak from your end. That's where your part of the story starts dwindling.

My concern is not what you do, neither whom you try to approach, i am least bothered. I will however step inside the picture when you start pouring out words which seem to malign the image of Pakistan, its Government and the Military. If you say you have the approach or the ideas, then you should also learn to address the ideas in the way they should be addressed without pointing fingers at the very machinery to whom you think you are thankful to for lending an ear.

The fundamental difference between you and me is that I tend to portray Pakistan and it's Military in a positive manner, which is actually a true presentation of it factually. While you may claim this or that, which any tom dck harry can on the forum, your words and your manner of explanation doesn't reflect a positive vibe. For starters you chose a SAM thread to address your agenda, makes me ponder if you really know whom to speak what, in real life actually as you claim in your post. When a member doesn't know where to post what, a basic ethic of posting, it becomes harder to believe that he actually knows what he is doing or just opens his mouth anywhere and starts blabbering. I have asked you before also that take your points to a different thread, this is a SAM thread. I have no interest discussing politicians, PTM and RAW on a SAM related thread. I am not a mod but somethings are just common sense. The only reason im replying you here is not get the image of Pakistan or Military maligned in any way, since any acquisition of a weapon system whether in Army, AirForce or Navy, invites lots of mud slinging at top brass, a trend which i am now getting tired of !

Since you tagged Horus already, why don't you request Horus to move your posts to a better suited thread or open a thread and we can discuss there. I will be more than happy to address all your issues elsewhere.

Let me first clarify why the post about the Top Brass making various strategic errors/blunders over the years was brought up; the context, which you have conveniently evaded, was a discussion over "Top Brass Knows Best" VS. entertaining the possibility that maybe it doesn't. So, I provided (non-SAM) examples of various things where I felt the Top Brass should have done more, and done it sooner (i.e. strategic errors.)

My blood boils reading your petty accusations --- as if suggesting that our Armed Forces could take a more offensive approach in dealing with corruption, R&AW sponsored terrorism and other ills means there is a secret agenda. I actively work to neutralize the 'secret agendas' you accuse me of being a part of.

Sad day for me on the forum given that I work with the people fighting the fights that you think I know nothing of --- but I do agree that we are both patriots (just different approaches), have a deep respect for our Armed Forces (still by far the best institution and the only reason Pakistan is still in tact) and a shared hope that the right systems will be acquired!

You're right --- it's a thread about SAMs, so let's stick to that. But don't make unsubstantiated accusations and suggestions toward a fellow patriot again; it's in bad taste and reduces your intellect to a blind fanboy. Peace.

Sounds good to hear but that do not changes the fact that we will be using such systems to DEFEND key assets. That is what everyone does and there is surely some reason for it.


@R Wing @Signalian thank you both for sharing your views on the defense procurement, corruption or lack of it! I feel that both of you have one common goal and purpose for these posts and that is betterment of the country and its forces, even though you two might have disagreed in the argument. However this is not an appropriate thread for this discussion plus i think you have both expressed your point of view. Perhaps we should agree to disagree and move on (Or if necessary take the discussion to an appropriate thread. Tag me there please if you decide to do that)

Absolutely agree and I totally get where @Signalian was/is coming from; I feel the same way toward people who cleverly use social media platforms/forums such as these to spew venom against the Armed Forces, but if we can't even give examples of what we perceive as past/present strategic errors by the Top Brass (the point being that they could make the same kind of errors in acquisitions as they have in other domains) without being labeled anti-State, then it's a sad day in deed. This is my last post addressing certain accusations, and then it's back on topic (SAMs!) --- thanks!

 

[guest9999]

Let me first clarify why the post about the Top Brass making various strategic errors/blunders over the years was brought up; the context, which you have conveniently evaded, was a discussion over "Top Brass Knows Best" VS. entertaining the possibility that maybe it doesn't. So, I provided (non-SAM) examples of various things where I felt the Top Brass should have done more, and done it sooner (i.e. strategic errors.)

My blood boils reading your petty accusations --- as if suggesting that our Armed Forces could take a more offensive approach in dealing with corruption, R&AW sponsored terrorism and other ills means there is a secret agenda. I actively work to neutralize the 'secret agendas' you accuse me of being a part of.

Sad day for me on the forum given that I work with the people fighting the fights that you think I know nothing of --- but I do agree that we are both patriots (just different approaches), have a deep respect for our Armed Forces (still by far the best institution and the only reason Pakistan is still in tact) and a shared hope that the right systems will be acquired!

You're right --- it's a thread about SAMs, so let's stick to that. But don't make unsubstantiated accusations and suggestions toward a fellow patriot again; it's in bad taste and reduces your intellect to a blind fanboy. Peace.

Absolutely agree and I totally get where @Signalian was/is coming from; I feel the same way toward people who cleverly use social media platforms/forums such as these to spew venom against the Armed Forces, but if we can't even give examples of what we perceive as past/present strategic errors by the Top Brass (the point being that they could make the same kind of errors in acquisitions as they have in other domains) without being labeled anti-State, then it's a sad day in deed. This is my last post addressing certain accusations, and then it's back on topic (SAMs!) --- thanks!

I think it's okay when people like us are criticizing the armed forces because we have what's best for Pakistan in mind. It's not okay when people in PTM do the same, because they have some ulterior motive and essentially desire the break-up of Pakistan. I, too, have relatives and others in armed forces and I have heard of (1) corruption, (2) rot, and worst-case scenario, the (3) sell-out of Pakistan's core interests to the West.

Before OBL-Raid, I was a staunch defender of the military and military-governments like Musharraf, etc. Much of No # 3 that I listed above, started during Musharraf's era. It climaxed when the OBL-Raid happened in Abbottabad. That confirmed everything for me and opened my eyes to what these people running the military were doing. There was a mole-network selling Pakistan out to the West.

For those defending military higher-ups, please ask yourselves, how much longer are you going to keep defending them? Wasn't 1971 War, Fall of East Pakistan, Siachen, Kargil War, WoT with 70,000 dead, violent groups running a muck in Pakistan, enough to open your eyes? People talk about East Pakistan lightly. Which I have to repeatedly remind was majority of your population and half your wing. How often does a country lost half its territory in a war? Please read up the biographies on the Indian army soldiers who have written about the 1971 war, the stories about failures & mistakes made by Pakistan army high-command are plentiful. Look up Operation Trident & Python and how it brought massive loss to Pakistan in 1971 war.

Why does every other country like US, Indian or even Iran & Afghanistan threaten to attack Pakistan, a nuclear power? Whereas, other countries like US think twice before attacking Iran, a much weaker country? Why is it that Pakistan is engulfed in separatist movements, rebellions, chaos when Iran, despite having no shortage of hostile foreign intelligence-agencies is a lot more peaceful & stable? Please ask yourselves these questions.

Armies are hired and paid to fight & win wars, not lose and be runner-up. There are no runner-ups in love & war. Top brass has consistently made costly mistakes, blunders, errors and the troops fighting on the front lines have had to pay the price with their lives. Some of the only reasons why Pakistan has survived until now is because it is lucky to have a foe as pathetic as the Indian military.

People mock the India here for its humiliation in February. The thing I liked about them is that Modi at least had the balls to sack the IAF Western Command officers. What happens if top brass in Pakistan lose wars and territory? They get full military honors, lol.

My point is that top brass should be applauded if they do well and they should be criticized if they do poorly. No one should tolerate mediocrity under the guise of patriotism. I think armed forces need massive reform & restructuring to be able to fight wars in the modern era. More importantly, I think armed forces need to change their war-fighting doctrine & strategy for India.

 

[Cuirassier]

Brilliant point sir, I really believe the high command needs accountability and needs to open up on it's past follies, literally wasted so much potential in strategically unsound ventures. And people with sincerity to the military must take steps in making our voices be heard, high ups must realize constructive criticism and advice is beneficial.

I think it's okay when people like us are criticizing the armed forces because we have what's best for Pakistan in mind. It's not okay when people in PTM do the same, because they have some ulterior motive and essentially desire the break-up of Pakistan. I, too, have relatives and others in armed forces and I have heard of (1) corruption, (2) rot, and worst-case scenario, the (3) sell-out of Pakistan's core interests to the West. This all came from the mouths of people who were or are still actively serving the armed forces and at a higher level than most.

Much of No # 3 that I listed above, started during Musharraf's era. It climaxed when the OBL-Raid happened in Abbottabad. That confirmed everything for me and opened my eyes to what these people running the military were doing. There was a mole-network selling Pakistan out to the West. Otherwise, before OBL-Raid, I was a staunch defender of the military and military-governments like Musharraf, etc.

For those defending military higher-ups, please ask yourselves, how much longer are you going to keep defending them? Wasn't 1971 War, Fall of East Pakistan, Siachen, Kargil War, WoT with 70,000 dead, violent groups running a muck in Pakistan, enough to open your eyes? People talk about East Pakistan lightly. Which I have to repeatedly remind was majority of your population and half your wing. How often does a country lost half its territory in a war? Please read up the biographies on the Indian army soldiers who have written about the 1971 war, the stories about failures & mistakes made by Pakistan army high-command are plentiful. Look up Operation Trident & Python and how it brought massive loss to Pakistan in 1971 war.

Why does every other country like US, Indian or even Iran & Afghanistan threaten to attack Pakistan, a nuclear power? Whereas, other countries like US think twice before attacking Iran, a much weaker country? Why is it that Pakistan is engulfed in separatist movements, rebellions, chaos when Iran, despite having no shortage of hostile foreign intelligence-agencies is a lot more peaceful & stable? Please ask yourselves these questions.

Armies are hired and paid to fight & win wars, not lose and be runner-up. There are no runner-ups in love & war. Top brass has consistently made costly mistakes, blunders, errors and the troops fighting on the front lines have had to pay the price with their lives. Some of the only reasons why Pakistan has survived until now is because it is lucky to have a foe as pathetic as the Indian military.

People mock the India here for its humiliation in February. The thing I liked about them is that Modi at least had the balls to sack the IAF Western Command officers. What happens if top brass in Pakistan lose wars and territory? They get full military honors, lol.

My point is that top brass should be applauded if they do well and they should be criticized if they do poorly. No one should tolerate mediocrity under the guise of patriotism. I think armed forces need massive reform & restructuring to be able to fight wars in the modern era. More importantly, I think armed forces need to change their war-fighting doctrine & strategy for India.

 

[Armchair]

Dear my point is the same. You need them in hundreds, then you need medium range SAM to protect these and QR SAM to protect them and perhaps CIWS as well as a final layers. Its all too complex and expensive. That is the only reason you dont see any country deploying SAM as an offensive weapons, surely there is a reason.

The mobile QR SAM may find limited offensive role with fast moving armored formations but that is it.


That my friend will be a defensive deployment, no? So we come back to that same point. These systems, low cost projectiles or high end radar guided missiles will have been and will be deployed as defensive weapon systems.

Hi Arsalan, I think you missed the point. You don't need hundreds, that would be insane. Anyways, lets agree to disagree.

I think it's okay when people like us are criticizing the armed forces because we have what's best for Pakistan in mind. It's not okay when people in PTM do the same, because they have some ulterior motive and essentially desire the break-up of Pakistan. I, too, have relatives and others in armed forces and I have heard of (1) corruption, (2) rot, and worst-case scenario, the (3) sell-out of Pakistan's core interests to the West. This all came from the mouths of people who were or are still actively serving the armed forces and at a higher level than most.

Much of No # 3 that I listed above, started during Musharraf's era. It climaxed when the OBL-Raid happened in Abbottabad. That confirmed everything for me and opened my eyes to what these people running the military were doing. There was a mole-network selling Pakistan out to the West. Otherwise, before OBL-Raid, I was a staunch defender of the military and military-governments like Musharraf, etc.

For those defending military higher-ups, please ask yourselves, how much longer are you going to keep defending them? Wasn't 1971 War, Fall of East Pakistan, Siachen, Kargil War, WoT with 70,000 dead, violent groups running a muck in Pakistan, enough to open your eyes? People talk about East Pakistan lightly. Which I have to repeatedly remind was majority of your population and half your wing. How often does a country lost half its territory in a war? Please read up the biographies on the Indian army soldiers who have written about the 1971 war, the stories about failures & mistakes made by Pakistan army high-command are plentiful. Look up Operation Trident & Python and how it brought massive loss to Pakistan in 1971 war.

Why does every other country like US, Indian or even Iran & Afghanistan threaten to attack Pakistan, a nuclear power? Whereas, other countries like US think twice before attacking Iran, a much weaker country? Why is it that Pakistan is engulfed in separatist movements, rebellions, chaos when Iran, despite having no shortage of hostile foreign intelligence-agencies is a lot more peaceful & stable? Please ask yourselves these questions.

Armies are hired and paid to fight & win wars, not lose and be runner-up. There are no runner-ups in love & war. Top brass has consistently made costly mistakes, blunders, errors and the troops fighting on the front lines have had to pay the price with their lives. Some of the only reasons why Pakistan has survived until now is because it is lucky to have a foe as pathetic as the Indian military.

People mock the India here for its humiliation in February. The thing I liked about them is that Modi at least had the balls to sack the IAF Western Command officers. What happens if top brass in Pakistan lose wars and territory? They get full military honors, lol.

My point is that top brass should be applauded if they do well and they should be criticized if they do poorly. No one should tolerate mediocrity under the guise of patriotism. I think armed forces need massive reform & restructuring to be able to fight wars in the modern era. More importantly, I think armed forces need to change their war-fighting doctrine & strategy for India.

Excellent post and kudos to R Wing too. It's ridiculous that anyone would think we should shut down debate to protect those whose incompetence, disloyalty and corruption has cost Pakistan more than anyone else.

Think about why HIT, KSEW are not functioning efficiently. Same story.
Think about these defence plots and real estate development. Turned serving the country into a self-serving profitable business.
Think about the corruption that Oscar keeps talking about and so many others. And how NO POLICY has come in to stop that. Same bunch.
And this is just the tip of the iceberg...

@MastanKhan