Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz opens Pandora Box on Kargil issue

[Xestan]

When you guys can agree with some random Indian army brigadier about how Kargil victory was not that convincing and twist that as proof saying India lost that war -then sure as hell we can believe a former Pakistani PM who some learned members are insisting was in the knowhow about this from the word go

Fair enough. You keep believing that Pakistan lost 4000 soldiers and we'll keep believing that you lost the war.

 

[KS]

Fair enough. You keep believing that Pakistan lost 4000 soldiers and we'll keep believing that you lost the war.

The problem is even though one is entitled to his/her opinions - he is NOT entitled to his own facts. So the facts say India won the war and the former Pak PM says Pak lost 4000 soldiers. Honestly I dont give a blip as to how many soldiers Pak lost as far as we secured our territory and evicted the intruders. So cheers.

 

[nair]

I guess this thread is another slap on the face of those people who call kargil was victory ........ But then if some one want to believe that PA has succeded in doing something they also have an answer in this post

And at the end of each fiasco, original objectives are redefined to cry, “Hurrah! We have won”.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...harraf-s-disaster-gen-aziz.html#ixzz2IxUnmoCc

......

 

[AHAM BRIHMASMI]

you can live in hope buddy
people can have difference of opinion here even retired generals

Our Gen Nasir Ullah Baber was very Anti Zia and he joined PPP he is the same general who during 1965 war flew into the centre of an Indian brigade and made them to surrender by fooling them that they were surrounded

Gen Zia Udlin Butt is also known to have personal grudges against Musharraf and someone has quoted his name in saying that Musharraf was looking after Osama.

your own military men have confessed that they have beheaded Pakistani soldiers and they see that as pride while your media is warmongering and crying rivers of tear over alleged brutality of Pakistan army. so yea you can get differing points of view from time to time among military and civilian leadership in Pakistan. even US Gen Mac Crystal had to resign due to his views published in Rolling stone.. got the drift or red mist is blinding your thought process? make a good response with mention of 1971 please

How your all this crap is related to thread ? do you want to say that people should take that general and other's expose as a deference of opinion ?? come on man, living in the constant denial is not a very good thing.

 

[Manas]

Like in romance , look at the effort not the result.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Those are the rants of Rafi the troll.rofl:

C'mon now, Rafi is the resident Bard (Cacofonix) of PDF. This unattributed and anonymous bit of literature has been spouted numerous times on this forum and almost always by the 'usual suspects'.

Now here is an attributed and acknowledged writing on Kargil:-

"What can one conclude ! It was the human heart that failed in Kargil and this heart which failed was housed in the ribcage of men sitting in the GHQ and not on the rocky pinnacles of Kargil !
Once the supply lines were closed under Indian threat of a counter attack , these brave men all Pakistan Army regulars were
abandoned to die , pounded by artillery fire , bayoneted by overwhelming numbers , weakened by starvation !

Who can hear their cries !
Our ears are covered with heaps of lies !
Truth died at Kargil !
What remains is a body guard of lies!"

The Author: Maj.(r) Agha Humayun Amin, P.A.

 

[jaibi]

Whether or not Aziz has some personal vendetta against Musharaf has little relevance against the fact that Kargil was indeed a disaster for us and I'm surprised why there are still debates as to if it was Musharaf's fault, Nawaz's faults or even the PAF's fault! It clearly shows a lapse in our command and excecution structure politically, diplomatically and militarily. Pakistan lost in that debacle and was shown as the aggressor. No military win is complete without a political win in this ear. We need to seriously learn from Kargil rather than shift the blame and analyse it in polarities of the army vs. govt. or the army vs. itself or even as an isolated military adventure separated from the larger political scenario.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

How your all this crap is related to thread ? do you want to say that people should take that general and other's expose as a deference of opinion ?? come on man, living in the constant denial is not a very good thing.

its not crap its a reality my dear
and he achieved that without employing the help of insurgents. yes I am talking about General Naseer Ullah
there is no denial there only different versions of the story
you have a cozy bollywood ending story to your satisfaction and you got some selective quotes to satisfy yourself
abandoning the soldiers, inflicting more losses than 71 are all good for the soul

the fact is that we still hold the positions which my friends have already kindly posted (earlier) but that doesnt matter does it. they all look like snow and rock dont they? they can be chicken hill, tiger hill or monkey top for all that matter.


its comical that Indian army passed some recorded footage of Bofors guns firing , and claim was made that they were hitting Kargil positions help by Pakistanis although at such height & elevation only a mortar or howitzer can work and has to be at the next glacier top, not next to trees that exist below Alpine climate, but hey who cares about these little inconsistencies when you got to celebrate the victory of killing half the Pakistan army and enslaving the rest.


what matters is you are willing to take what ever is fed to you by your government. which makes false accusations on Pak army desecrating bodies and then runs away when offered the choice of international mediation

dont believe me but heed the words of your own spy (Surjeet) which we freed and he told your guys to shut up and listen to him that what he was saying was truth and without fear because he was among his own people in India, .. the fact that he and other Indian captives were treated very well.

please dont take it personally but if the claims of your Army were correct about Kargil then we would have abandoned Siachin already but as it happens we dont give you the free ride your BSF gets on the Bangladesh borders.

 

[Armstrong]

@Irfan Baloch : Irfan Bhai, please sum up the Kargil war for me :

(a) What was the objective ?

(b) What did we achieve ?

(c) What did we loose ?

(d) And why in God's name did we do it to begin with ?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

the same reason India has deployed over a million army in Kashmir, has made Siachin the highest battlefield.
Kashmir was brought back to front stage although politically our performance was same as that of 1965. Indians were shaken very badly & their myth of invincibility was broken it was not meant to conquer the whole sector anyway. some fine NLI troops were lost on the order of withdrawl when Clinton told our PM to do so.

despite that we reinforced our resolve it was a daring gambit and had it paid off then the same critics would have been licking the soles of Musharraf. contrary to what is written in the press and specially by some disgruntled ex officers who have their right to have their say, Musharraf enjoyed full confidence and support of his men, hence they refused to accept the shenanigans of Lion of Raiwand & relied behind him,

in the subcontinent Pakistan is the only country which is not a client state and at mercy of India, I dont mean any disrespect to any other country but for example BSF doesnt really care where Bangladeshi territory starts. its not the case here. you cant blame Mussharaf for this operation really.. ask we have unresolved disputes if Indians are so trustworthy then ask them to demilitarize Siachin .. would they?

put a hand on your heart and ask yourself, if the opportunity presents itself would Indians hesitate even for a moment to do something similar? check out their recent statements, their think tanks suggest that its best time to strike Pakistan cause Sectarian & ethnic unrest and open a regular war front while its army is occupied in dealing with religious and ethnic insurgency
while this story of heading of soldiers is being cooked up they are telling the people of Indian Readmitted Kashmir to brace themselves for nuclear war


as long as we have unresolved conflicts and no resolutions of our core issues, all bets are off
its like the tit for tat sniping along the LoC.

 

[AHAM BRIHMASMI]

its not crap its a reality my dear
and he achieved that without employing the help of insurgents. yes I am talking about General Naseer Ullah
there is no denial there only different versions of the story
you have a cozy bollywood ending story to your satisfaction and you got some selective quotes to satisfy yourself
abandoning the soldiers, inflicting more losses than 71 are all good for the soul

the fact is that we still hold the positions which my friends have already kindly posted (earlier) but that doesnt matter does it. they all look like snow and rock dont they? they can be chicken hill, tiger hill or monkey top for all that matter.


its comical that Indian army passed some recorded footage of Bofors guns firing , and claim was made that they were hitting Kargil positions help by Pakistanis although at such height & elevation only a mortar or howitzer can work and has to be at the next glacier top, not next to trees that exist below Alpine climate, but hey who cares about these little inconsistencies when you got to celebrate the victory of killing half the Pakistan army and enslaving the rest.


what matters is you are willing to take what ever is fed to you by your government. which makes false accusations on Pak army desecrating bodies and then runs away when offered the choice of international mediation

dont believe me but heed the words of your own spy (Surjeet) which we freed and he told your guys to shut up and listen to him that what he was saying was truth and without fear because he was among his own people in India, .. the fact that he and other Indian captives were treated very well.

please dont take it personally but if the claims of your Army were correct about Kargil then we would have abandoned Siachin already but as it happens we dont give you the free ride your BSF gets on the Bangladesh borders.

no body in india give a damn what the army or govt says, we know the reality of kargil, there were not 4000 deaths, and you still occupy those 3 peaks, but it is also true that it was planned by your mush and company, and pakistani army lost about 7 to 8 hundred of its troops and we lost about 500. you people disowned your own soldiers,its a fact, your generals should be killed by stoning for this act only. your soldiers fought very bravely, its a fact, but so do ours, we performed last rites of your disowned soldiers, its a fact. all your all weather friend deserted you for that nonsensical act, this is a fact. pakistan ki mitti palit ho gayi international community me is ek incident se,ye baat kyo nahi samajhte aap log ?

 

[nithin]

WHAT PAKISTAN LOST ?

The facade that the kashmiri movement is not an insurgency but a genuine effort by localities that PA so meticulously peddled across the world was lost almost instantly.

Now nobody trust them at all.. the entire drama was pulled off stage so much so that some highly revered diplomats of the world have concluded that " pakistanis are pathological liars "

 

[Capt.Popeye]

@Irfan Baloch : Irfan Bhai, please sum up the Kargil war for me :

(a) What was the objective ?

(b) What did we achieve ?

(c) What did we loose ?

(d) And why in God's name did we do it to begin with ?

@Armstrong,
Do you think that you will get an objective answer to that question here?

There are enough authors in Pakistan (with both a military and diplomatic background) who have written about the Kargil misadventure. Do not (if you feel like) refer to any Indian source at all. Even referring to third parties from Europe or USA for example can be optional, if you wish. That amount of information will be enough to connect the dots and recreate the real picture. But do it as objectively as you can. You are likely to find the answers to all of that you have asked.

I relied on as much material from Pakistan that I could find, and used them as references to study the Kargil conflict as a starting point. Later I referred to other sources. One fact that I discovered; was that the PAF leadership proved to be the most sanguine and prescient as to where the initiation of Operation Badr could eventually lead to. And that assessment was remarkably accurate. Which is the hall-mark of any good military leadership.
The PA initiated a plan which rapidly went out of their control (for various reasons, that you are welcome to find out for yourself). The PN did not count for anything at all either to the run-up to Kargil or the operations that then ensued. So the PN (seemingly) did not take any stand on the viability of the plan.
The Diplomatic Establishment was just left high and dry when the situation blew up.
The above situation goes against all the tenets and methods of modern military conflict management.
I'll conclude my response to you here, though there are many other facts and consequent ramifications of the Kargil misadventure that are available.

 

[majesticpankaj]

when did the PA issued the list of pakistani soldiers who died in Kargil...??
Can somebody provide the link ??

 

[Irfan Baloch]

when did the PA issued the list of pakistani soldiers who died in Kargil...??
Can somebody provide the link ??

It is good that you are looking for a different version to the Bollywoodified story that has been fed to you.
the glorious claim seems too good to be true and there have been some feeble rumblings that contrast from official story line that were promptly muted by the state & patriotically ignored by Indian media.

when someone is not sure then he turns up the volume of the "victory" song and the rhetoric. it is understandable and reminds me of the original Movie "Matrix" where Neo questions & finds out some interesting facts.

the death toll of the conflict is documented in the Pak army website but dont waste time there because it goes against the Indian narrative.

but yea I know the nag. the nag is there , on one end some Indians find it a patriotic compulsion to sing the Kargil victory that even shames Alexander, Gen Patton and General Montgomery but on the other end they dont see Pakistan army disappearing from the same heights and the same sector and the same region although going by this logic the participants of Indian Vijay should be having Nihari in Raiwand with Nawaz Sherif, not freezing their balls in sub zero temperature for 12 months now.


please dont get me wrong, Indians recovered very well and regained their positions after Uncle Sam told our Tiger (he was not the lion then he didnt have hair transplants then) to leave those positions and withdraw. they have reason to celebrate that the Gambit didnt pay off as planned. but the love is never lost is it?

from East Pakistan, Kashmir, Karachi, Balochistan to Afghanistan, the covert war is very much on.