Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz opens Pandora Box on Kargil issue

[Bratva]

Well they have knives ? Even bare hands. Read about Shaitan Singh.

Hum Indians to Pakistaniyon ko Nigaahon se maar dete hain.

If we are going to talk about individual cases, Than there is Captain Sher Khan, Lance Naik Lalak Jaan

Knives and bare hands means how much soldier is trained to use his knife and bare hands skillfully which again begs the question does every IA soldier is taught martial arts and knife skills?

 

[ice_man]

the ONLY reason why kargil was a misadventure was exactly why the Schlieffen Plan failed in world war 1! reason is simple it was out dated by a decade!

if the plan had been put into action when it was made up in the 90s the laser guided missiles were not common! neither was BVRs available and the PAF along with the PA didn't face any embargoes that crippled both of them!


however, having said that the dumb decision of Nawaz to withdraw after US promised to let him keep his seat! is where Pakistan suffered the most!!!!

Well they have knives ? Even bare hands. Read about Shaitan Singh.

Hum Indians to Pakistaniyon ko Nigaahon se maar dete hain.

i know KAREENA,KATRINA, DEEPIKA!!!

 

[Indrajith]

So what was the outcome of this bloody misadventure
1. Lot of innocent brave people lost their life for comfortable sitting idiots
2. Most of our money was drained in the name of additional taxes, additional weapons, coffins etc..

 

[acid rain]

It is good that you are looking for a different version to the Bollywoodified story that has been fed to you.
the glorious claim seems too good to be true and there have been some feeble rumblings that contrast from official story line that were promptly muted by the state & patriotically ignored by Indian media.

when someone is not sure then he turns up the volume of the "victory" song and the rhetoric. it is understandable and reminds me of the original Movie "Matrix" where Neo questions & finds out some interesting facts.

the death toll of the conflict is documented in the Pak army website but dont waste time there because it goes against the Indian narrative.

but yea I know the nag. the nag is there , on one end some Indians find it a patriotic compulsion to sing the Kargil victory that even shames Alexander, Gen Patton and General Montgomery but on the other end they dont see Pakistan army disappearing from the same heights and the same sector and the same region although going by this logic the participants of Indian Vijay should be having Nihari in Raiwand with Nawaz Sherif, not freezing their balls in sub zero temperature for 12 months now.


please dont get me wrong, Indians recovered very well and regained their positions after Uncle Sam told our Tiger (he was not the lion then he didnt have hair transplants then) to leave those positions and withdraw. they have reason to celebrate that the Gambit didnt pay off as planned. but the love is never lost is it?

from East Pakistan, Kashmir, Karachi, Balochistan to Afghanistan, the covert war is very much on.

You have a decent potential to be a fiction writer, I specially loved the part where IA fired bofors in a bollywood studio and super imposed it to be on the heights of Kargil, also loved the part where howitzers need to be on parellel peaks to be effective, makes me wonder what the M 777 operators are doing firing on hilltops from their base camps in Afg, which India also intends to do on the peaks of the Himalayan ranges, well they can hire a bollywood crew to mimic that..right?

Also I would like to add those IAF planes pounding Pakistani bunkers were actually special effects, and the IA was in a studio play acting the whole Kargil war while in the meantime waiting for the US to order Pakistan to withdraw its troops, those thousands of casualties that PA incurred were actually accidents when they were happily withdrawing laughing all the way back to Pakistan.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

the ONLY reason why kargil was a misadventure was exactly why the Schlieffen Plan failed in world war 1! reason is simple it was out dated by a decade!

if the plan had been put into action when it was made up in the 90s the laser guided missiles were not common! neither was BVRs available and the PAF along with the PA didn't face any embargoes that crippled both of them!

however, having said that the dumb decision of Nawaz to withdraw after US promised to let him keep his seat! is where Pakistan suffered the most!!!!

OK, now that you have made your argument in the underlined part.
Was'nt it absolute lunacy to have persisted with this"outdated plan". Without adequate military hardware, without sufficient POL and other critical supplies, without the required BVR or LG weapons, without enough spares to keep the mainstay of the PAF operational; the list can be even longer...........

Which idiotic General would have carried out this "half-baked" plan and hope that it would work?
There was only one General, a certain Musharraff who led a small cabal to execute the plan.

Little wonder that the PAF who had some "thinking professionals" refused to climb on this "band-wagon and get taken for a ride".
Only the PA had one "hell of a joy-ride". The unfortunate NLI soldiers (and others) paid the price for it.

That is precisely what Lt. Gen. Aziz has said in the OP: "Kargil was Musharraff's disaster".

edit: corrected the title of the OP.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

For every Indian Soldier killed 8 Pakistani Soldiers were killed so relatively speaking Indian losses were only 530 compared to 4,000 for Pakistan.

The body counting is pointless when it comes to victory, what matters is objectives being met.

 

[KRAIT]

If we are going to talk about individual cases, Than there is Captain Sher Khan, Lance Naik Lalak Jaan
Knives and bare hands means how much soldier is trained to use his knife and bare hands skillfully which again begs the question does every IA soldier is taught martial arts and knife skills?

No, we don't have to. For western border, we project Niazi signing surrender papers on Sky like Commissione Gordon used to do for Batman and drop pamphlets of same from our Planes.

The enemy lose heart and ghudki and they lay down their weapon.

 

[Porus]

however, having said that the dumb decision of Nawaz to withdraw after US promised to let him keep his seat! is where Pakistan suffered the most!!!!

Why did he go to Washington, just to save his premiership? Why was his premiership at stake, wasn't he an elected and legitimate Prime Minister, even if he was incompetent and corrupt? PA soldiers were successfully holding their positions on the mountains and Indians were nowhere in a position to dislodge them, victory was almost achieved and then immediately Nawaz goes to Washington to meet Clinton. He comes back and Musharraf is asked to withdraw his forces. Being a law abiding soldier Musharraf (lol) had no other option but to accept the orders coming from a bloody civilian. This whole story doesn't make an iota of sense to me.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Why did he go to Washington, just to save his premiership? Why was his premiership at stake, wasn't he an elected and legitimate Prime Minister, even if he was incompetent and corrupt? PA soldiers were successfully holding their positions on the mountains and Indians were nowhere in a position to dislodge them, victory was almost achieved and then immediately Nawaz goes to Washington to meet Clinton. He comes back and Musharraf is asked to withdraw his forces. Being a law abiding soldier Musharraf (lol) had no other option but to accept the orders coming from a bloody civilian. This whole story doesn't make an iota of sense to me.

Then why did the disciplined law-abiding soldier Musharraff turn on the Govt. and overthrow the Govt. eventually and assume all the powers himself?

Porus, your questions just open up another can of worms!

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

Then why did the disciplined law-abiding soldier Musharraff turn on the Govt. and overthrow the Govt. eventually and assume all the powers himself?

Porus, your questions just open up another can of worms!

I think he was being sarcastic.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I think he was being sarcastic.

Hey, I know that; so was I!

 

[Indrajith]

I would appreciate answer from my Pakistani friends

The Kargil was planned by just 4 people and they went into it even without taking PAF or PN into confidence and not much to the PM Nawaz Sherif

But why did they retreat , if they where winning , why did they give their ears to PM Nawaz at that time instead of ignoring him

They could have taken PN & PAF into confidence and used more force to keep their strategic advantage

 

[EyelessInGaza]

the ONLY reason why kargil was a misadventure was exactly why the Schlieffen Plan failed in world war 1! reason is simple it was out dated by a decade! ......

Off topic: while several reasons have been attributed, to the best of my knowledge the one most commonly cited reason for the failure of the Schlieffen Plan is that its core principle was ignored- a strong right wing that would provide the expected 'punch' as the German army wheeled from the coast.

Moltke stripped the right wing of troops, thereby weakening the expected offensive punch at a time when Allied resistance had stiffened.

The expected knockout blow never happened, and from that point on it was a war of attrition.

 

[MST]

the ONLY reason why kargil was a misadventure was exactly why the Schlieffen Plan failed in world war 1! reason is simple it was out dated by a decade!

if the plan had been put into action when it was made up in the 90s the laser guided missiles were not common! neither was BVRs available and the PAF along with the PA didn't face any embargoes that crippled both of them!


however, having said that the dumb decision of Nawaz to withdraw after US promised to let him keep his seat! is where Pakistan suffered the most!!!!

This is what happens when you don't learn from history. This is exactly the same thing your Generals did in 1965 in operation Gibraltor. It was only a matter of time before we would have opened another front on IB like in 1965. But we were succeeding in evicting Pakistanis from peak after peak and we were getting lot of traction around the world for not crossing the LOC so we choose not to.

Oh but wait history is not taught in Pakistan. Ignore it man, you will not understand i guess.

 

[karan.1970]

Has this general been branded as a traitor or an Indian stooge yet?