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Liberals & Secularists: Pakistan's "Progressive" Cancer

I don't know why Pakistan's state is tolerating these open traitors of our land. These people are investing our media, academics, entertainment industry, and so on. Being "soft" while a backward, inferiority-complex stricken Hindu nazi regime is rising to your East will lead us to path of subjugation.

Pakistan establishment needs to come hard on these ideological terrorists. But then again, these bunch are from elitist, rich backgrounds with connections to businessmen, media tycoons, foreign NGOs, and military high command (Brigs, Generals etc). So nothing happens to them :)

So pathetically sad and infuriating....

Yes, in the entire lifetime of Pakistan, the liberals have had so much control that Pakistan became into an Islamic Republic, passed Islamic laws, saw an era full of Islamization, saw an Afghan refugee crisis, and saw the rise of radical Islamism with popular support until APS, and to this day we see a Lal Masjid goon who no one dares to question.
Indeed, this is the Pakistan controlled by liberals; you guys are a bunch of jokers nothing else.

Progressive times in Pakistan, the 60's, saw a progressive Pakistan; and dark times in Pakistan, the 80's, saw a downhill going theocratic Pakistan which Jinnah despised, and Jinnah wanted a secular republic! Take a note from history if you re****s have nothing else :)

Edit: Had to say this. If you have a problem with liberal and secular ideals, it's a different thing. I respect all thoughts regarding what kind of a socio-political system should be in Pakistan. But to pick out tweets of a few obvious idiots, slap in some poems, slap in some events, and then say liberals are too powerful is sadly hilarious, and garbage. In the entire history of Pakistan, the laws and decisions have been influenced and guided by mullahs except in the 60s under Gen. Ayub and in 2000-2007 under Gen. Musharraf. All of Pakistan's despairs have been because of these people. If you see more people inclining towards secularism and liberalism, it is because of the success of other nations in it, and the failure of Pakistan's state in its history under religious influence of corrupt mullahs.

Blame yourselves, cry, do whatever you want, but this won't stop. Fight ideas with ideas, unfortunately your idea has failed Pakistan so far, and continues fail it today. Lal Masjid is a prime example; any and all major country shutting protests in the last decade ( you know by who ) are an example!
 
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For sake of argument though, let's assume that the baathist/socialist style of governance was indeed true Islam.

No, I didn't say that Ba'ath socialism was True Islam but it certainly enables a dialogue where people can talk of what is True Islam.

After the Syrian war is over and Assad sets about modifying his country's political system ( which he will ) I wish that Syria adopts the Jamahiriya system from former Libya. This system also known as The Third Universal Theory, is basically Direct Democracy Socialism. If you read my signature ( below my post ) you will find my desire for a communist world. The Jamahiriya system comes close to it.

If Syria adopts Jamahiriya system it will become even more socialist.

No terror/violence/suppression of women/equality for all..

Syria, Iraq, Nasser's Egypt, Libya etc were quite modern places.

Kurd style (some of them women fighters btw <3 !!!!!)

You will know of Gaddafi's women bodyguards. Also, women in Libya were given military training too.

And in 2015 I had created a thread about the National Defense Forces of Syria, a civilian pro-Assad militia group whose fighters and other staff include women. Please watch the vid in that thread.

Why did all these systems fail ? It was muslims themselves living under those systems who rebelled and took to arms. If it was that great, surely the happy majority following the true deen would have crushed the reactionaries.

These rebels are / were technically Muslims but they didn't understand Islam. To repeat myself, they thought the Islam is all about prayer, ritual and a certain dress-code. Please watch this vid about Nasser recounting in a speech his encounter with the chief of the Muslim Brotherhood who asked for all Egyptian women to become covered in burqa. Please do note the audience's reaction.

The sensible citizens of Algeria, Syria, Libya etc have indeed fought the rebels / reactionaries in various amounts. Many Libyans want to go back to their pre-2011 system. The Syrian armed forces have been fighting a nine year war and for what ?? To answer your point they have been crushing the terrorists.

I respect your POV

Thank you.

but just look around... and although there is no scientific way to prove it but I'd say upward of 90% of the global Muslim population will reject your ideas of what is the real and true religion.

I would agree with you to the point that many Muslims in the last 15 to 20 years have become reactionary and overtly respectful of the mullahs. Look at the modern popularity in India of the Tableeghi Jamaat and the burqa. These were things that were generally not visible earlier.

But please do read read this thread of mine from 2016 which is about socialist activism among Muslims in previous decades. An international revolutionary like Carlos ( the jackal ) worked for the Palestinian cause because the socialist ( and Muslim-majority ) PLO was the main champion of that cause. Would he have done so if it was only the mullah-ridden Hamas ??

How many on this forum agree with you ?

There are a few who receive my posts favorably and the forum management has supported me until now. Also, I got a few positive ratings for that last linked thread of mine.

No, Saddam didn't want a caliphate either. Was his lifestyle Islamic ?

Firstly, a Caliphate is an obsolete system.

Secondly, what is an "Islamic lifestyle" ?? :)

Thirdly, I don't agree with some of what Saddam did. For example, his invasion of Kuwait.

While we might support those Sunnis who fight for Asad, I certainly do.

Good to know. :tup:

The majority of them oppose the ba'athist way. The majority would have picked arms and fought FOR the regime if it was otherwise.

In Syria, though many able-bodied people chose to become refugees some did pick up arms and fought for the government. It is not as if the entire militaries of Russia and Iran are in Syria to help the government.

Assad has lasted nine years.

Osama bought money and a radical ideology to fight the godless commies, the foot soldiers were overwhelmingly locals at the time.

Osama also fought in the war. Also, you may somewhere have heard of the "Arab Afghans".

Yes, I've read a fair bit about conflicts in Afghanistan, both the Soviet and American wars.

You seen 'bitter lake' ? must have.. that was a good one.

No, I haven't watched that documentary. I will do so at some point.

From its Wikipedia page is this :
It also outlines the US's alliance with Saudi Arabia, especially the former's agreement to buy Saudi oil, for control of a key energy supplier during the cold-war era, with Saudi Arabia gaining wealth and security in return, with agreement withstanding provided it was allowed to continue its violent and fundamentalist interpretation of Islam, Wahhabism, uninhibited from external influence
Now that is a simplistic understanding of the situation. The real reason / situation was that NATO didn't want Muslim-majority countries to maintain or adopt the socialist ideology that was being promoted by the USSR. Towards this, NATO funded, supported, promoted and trained regressive elements in those countries or outside them while at the same time demonizing the socialist governments in those countries. For example, promotion by NATO in the UNO SC in early 2011 that Gaddafi's forces "were killing civilians, including women and children" and somewhere later that "Gaddafi's army was being supplied with viagra to rape women".

All this is basically a conflict between capitalist imperialism and socialism.

Brezenski in that famous video clip with a bull horn egging on refugees to fight for Islam.

Can you provide me a link to the vid ??

Why didn't they fight for a socialist 'true' Islam ?

Most people are not deep thinkers.
 
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Why have people failed so badly at it if it is such a perfect and simple system ?

Also, curious, what Islamic country is the best in terms of sticking to the religion and everything is great etc ?

Muslim countries can be regarded as practicing Islam if they insert some criminal law that is written in Quran as their positive law. Not many of them actually, and inserting this Sharia Law is one of the agenda of so many Islamist group in many Muslim countries.

Second, the system should use "syura" or in English it means consultation/discussion which is very democratic in the essence. Applying democracy system IMO is inline with the term "syura" found in Quran.

While moral police like is found in Iran/ Saudi who force women to wear Hijab or others doesnt come from Islam as Islam respect personal freedom.

So become a perfect Muslim nation is not actually that difficult.
 
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All Pakistanis are equal, brother; those who're holding views not healthy for our state are speaking their minds and I don't think we can assume that it's because of malintent necessarily. Pakistan is home for diverse people and they should be engaged. That's how democracies work but I would be weary of hatred; just look at our neighbour.

Very finely elucidated piece. Good job; though I don't agree with a few things but we're brothers under the green and white! Power to you, brother.
Liberals & Secularists: Pakistan's "Progressive" Cancer

We are at war, we’ve been at war with this evil, destructive ideology espoused by both foreign and domestic enemies who are so self loathing and lack all common sense they have shamelessly continued to push their misinformation campaign since the 30s attempting to brainwash our people and Muslims in surrounding regions into abandoning our culture and faith to weaken our resolve, dissolve our glorious nation or prevent the rise of independent Muslim states.

As the Quran states in Surah 5:51

“O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.”

Truer words have never been spoken and thank Allah (swt) for the Muslim League that liberated our lands from the British Raj and for giving Jinnah the sense not to listen to Hindus like Ghandi and Nehru.

Unfortunately, we have a self proclaimed “progressive” liberal menace that hates the very existence of Pakistan like Professor Hoodbhoy whose disinformation campaign was in full swing during a speech he gave at Adab Festival at the Karachi Arts Council this year:

Our founding fathers like Allama Iqbal made it clear through the Allahabad Address:

“India is a continent of human groups belonging to different races, speaking different languages, and professing different religions [...] Personally, I would like to see thePunjab, North-West Frontier Province, Sindh and Baluchistan amalgamated into a single state. Self-government within the British Empire, or without the British Empire, the formation of a consolidated North-West Indian Muslim State appears to me to be the final destiny of the Muslims, at least of North-West India.
Sir Muhammad Iqbal
29 December 1930
Chaudhary Rehmat Ali in his pamphlet “Now or Never: Are we to perish or live forever?” published in 1933 reconfirmed Iqbal and the Muslim League stance stating

"all those five Provinces [Punjab, NWFP, Kashmir, Sindh, Balochistan] should have a separate Federation of their own outside India... we are entitled to ask our delegates for what purpose we are being pressed to sacrifice our nationality [Pakistan] and to submit ourselves and our prosperity to non-Muslim domination"
https://www.indiaofthepast.org/images/pdf/1930s/now_or_never.pd

Jinnah put the final nail in the coffin confirming the two nation theory stating:

"It is a dream that the Hindus and Muslims can ever evolve a common nationality... Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilizations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions."
- Mohammed Ali Jinnah 23 March 1940

And we have a host of speeches made by Jinnah where he makes it very clear that Pakistan would be an “Islamic State” based on the principles of “Islamic Socialism not other -isms”, made by Muslims for Muslims in which the laws would “[not] be in conflict with Shariat Laws”.

it’s clear that Jinnah and the Muslim League were never confused about their agenda or goals post 1930.

However the Muslim League demand wasn’t for Muslims of what was colloquially referred to as India to come to or be a single nation with Pakistan as confirmed by Iqbal and Chaudhry Rehmat Ali but instead Muslims were urged to forge their own independent states:

View attachment 625373

Contrary to professor Hoodbhoy's beliefs Bangladesh’s independence didn’t negate the Two Nation Theory, particularly considering it didn’t rejoin India, instead it reverted Pakistan to the original proposition made by the Muslim League.

So we can only conclude that either these mentally deranged “liberals” are confused about Pakistan’s history or are engaged in outright malicious misinformation campaigns.
Hoodbhoy, like his liberal secular cohorts, refused to even address the ongoing genocides against Muslims in India with the latest large scale incident being the indiscriminate violence we saw in New Delhi, one of three occurring in the city historically since independence, instead launching into a disinformation tirade. They’re even attacking secularism now, in defence of Hindu’s onslaught against Muslims in India, such as Arif Ajakia a non-violent, self proclaimed human rights activist campaigning for media and religious freedoms in Pakistan:
View attachment 625374

Let us pray that the Muslims in the collective occupation known as the secular Republic of India have the wherewithal to fight for their freedom and achieve Azadi as do the Sikhs, Tamils, etc... in opposition to this liberal secular hindu menace that seeks to keep them imprisoned and brainwashed to the dangers they face and embroils then in a future war against Pakistan.

Pakistan, despite its economic woes and a belligerent, miserable Hindu menace next door, is still the happiest nation in South Asia as confirmed by the 2019 “Happiness Index”:


View attachment 625375

Why are liberals so keen on destroying Pakistan and making us as miserable as they are?

Despite studies confirming that increased multiculturalism brings misery why does our government placate to the whims of Sikhs, Hindus and liberals (ex. Sheikh Abdullah in the distant past and Hoodhboy today) who opposed Pakistans creation and now seek to undermine our national identity and Islamic way of life by pushing absurd narratives and attempting to have our peoples fight one another?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/happiness_formula/5012478.stm

Our people must stand resolute and ever vigilant against this disinformation campaign.

For all their rhetoric about being “progressive” (a new label these shameless people use for themselves to push their false narrative) they are anything but continuing to push completely regressive ideas in the public space.

For example, liberals within the Aurut March like Ismat Shah Jahan of the ANP openly oppose Islam citing it as the reason for rapes:

Then you have other ardent campaigners keen on pushing homosexuality onto and within Pakistan despite the fact that the US’ own government states:

"Gay and bisexual men are the population most affected by HIV... Gay and bisexual men accounted for 69% of all HIV diagnoses in the United States and 86% of diagnoses among males."
View attachment 625382
https://www.hiv.gov/hiv-basics/overview/data-and-trends/statistics

View attachment 625383
https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/statistics/overview/ataglance.html

Years earlier liberals like PTM leader Mohsin Dawar were cheering on the murder of our civilians, violation of Pakistan’s sovereignty and territorial Integrity, through their tacit support of American drone strikes, but now pretend to champion the cause of our peoples terrorized by them in Khyber Pukthoonkwa:

View attachment 625385

American atrocities in Pakistan becomes more apparent with the UN now openly confirming that in 2019 the US and puppet Afghan governments forces, with their far more sophisticated armaments including pin point accurate missiles, were responsible for the majority of civilian deaths in Afghanistan:

UNAMA attributed 52 per cent of all civilian casualties to AGEs, with 38 per cent attributed to Taliban”
https://unama.unmissions.org/un-urges-parties-heed-call-afghans-zero-civilian-casualties

From the PTM denouncing the Taliban, heroes of all Muslims and Afghanistan, as terrorists for fighting for an Afghanistan free of foreign occupation attempting to degrade their struggle as a mere extension of Pakistan’s ISI:

Now this sick liberal menace except they lost and some cheer on peace with the hope it keeps their foreign installed puppets in power:

View attachment 625388

Others admittedly not so much and once again use disinformation to destroy a hard earned peace:

View attachment 625389
Note: ISIL claimed responsibility for the attack, the Taliban denied any responsibility and it never made sense to blame them and denounce the peace agreement when the Taliban themselves wanted “intra Afghan talks” meaning they made it a point to talk with all sides including Abdullah Abdullah not just Ghani and his puppet government.
https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/n...al-leader-abdullah-unharmed-spokesman-420181/

Our corrupt former self avowed liberal PM Nawaz Sharif whose office barred any negative news against India at the cost of our people on and our land of Kashmir for personal gain, wanted to give India MFN status at the continued cost of our economy and now hides himself in the UK after being given permission to leave by the PTI government on health grounds is just another example of this regressive, hateful anti Pakistan agenda being pushed by these deplorable people with no love for our nation.

Irrespective of the fact that Secularism has brought nothing but misery to the people of the world particularly Muslims with some notable examples being:

Burma's 1974 and now Myanmar's 2008 constitution are secular but that hasn't stopped the persecution and mass murder of Muslims in the country

Yugoslavia had a secular constitution in 1963 but that didn't stop the Bosnian genocide.

The USSR's constitution of 1936 & 1977 were secular but that didn't stop them from mass murdering millions including the genocide enacted via “Operation Lentil” as deemed by the International Criminal Court and its later invasion of the sovereign nation of Afghanistan that followed the soviet orchestrated assassination of Afghanistan's former dictator Hafizullah Amin leading to the death of over 1 million Muslims.

The US had a secular constitution since independence but that didn't stop what could possibly be the world's worst genocide via the extermination of the native population during which they employed rape and biological warfare (ex. blankets laced with polio) to wipe them out. Not to mention the internment of Japanese-American citizens, slavery and later apartheid as well as its ongoing wars against Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq resulting in the murders of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.
Irregardless of the facts these sick degenerates continue to push for it.

Enough is enough!

These people need to be stripped of our nationality and our government must not allow public spaces for their continued disinformation campaign. They cannot be loyal to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan so there is no need for the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to accommodate them and their degeneracy.

We must never allow the Sheikh Abdullahs who sided and worked with deplorable Hindus like Ghandi and Nehru turning both occupied Kashmir and India into the worlds largest open air prison for Muslims to do the same in Pakistan.
 
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Pakistan is a Muslim State. There is no doubt about that. Our problem and the main problem of the Islamic world is that we made our Mullahs like gods who can decide about wrong or right (there is a specific hadith about the same thing for Jews and Christians).

Islam is simple so keep it simple. No need for temples, holy men or megalomaniacs. If people could adhere to the 5 pillars (just do it!) and would try to be kind and helpful like our beloved prophet (PBUH) we would have excellency in all matters of our life!

This is due to the influence of traditional Islam. In Indonesia we started Islam modernist movement in 1912 where Mullah/Ulama position will be put into its real position. Traditional Islam ulama in Indonesia for instant is very respected and their follower will kiss their hands and this doesnt happen with Islam Modernist Ulama which try to practice Islam just like what happened during prophet Muhammad. Islam modernist still respect their Ulama but treat them as normal person not untouchable figure.

You can read more on this:

Muhammadiyah (Arabic: محمدية‎, followers of Muhammad. full name: Persyarikatan Muhammadiyah) is a major Islamic non-governmental organization in Indonesia.[1] The organization was founded in 1912 by Ahmad Dahlan in the city of Yogyakarta as a reformist socioreligious movement, advocating ijtihad - individual interpretation of Qur'an and sunnah, as opposed to taqlid - the acceptance of the traditional interpretations propounded by the ulama.[2] Since its establishment, Muhammadiyah has adopted a reformist platform mixing religious and secular education,[3] primarily as a way to promote the upward mobility of Muslims toward a 'modern' community and to purify Indonesian Islam of local syncretic practices.[3] It continues to support local culture and promote religious tolerance in Indonesia, while a few of its higher education institutions are attended mostly by non-Muslims, especially in East Nusa Tenggara and Papua provinces. The group also runs a large chain of charity hospitals,[1] and operated 128 universities as of the late 1990s.[4]

At the moment, Muhammadiyah is the second largest Islamic organization in Indonesia with 29 million members.[2] Although Muhammadiyah leaders and members are often actively involved in shaping the politics in Indonesia, Muhammadiyah is not a political party. It has devoted itself to social and educational activities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammadiyah
 
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Yes, in the entire lifetime of Pakistan, the liberals have had so much control that Pakistan became into an Islamic Republic, passed Islamic laws, saw an era full of Islamization, saw an Afghan refugee crisis, and saw the rise of radical Islamism with popular support until APS, and to this day we see a Lal Masjid goon who no one dares to question.
Indeed, this is the Pakistan controlled by liberals; you guys are a bunch of jokers nothing else.

Progressive times in Pakistan, the 60's, saw a progressive Pakistan; and dark times in Pakistan, the 80's, saw a downhill going theocratic Pakistan which Jinnah despised, and Jinnah wanted a secular republic! Take a note from history if you re****s have nothing else :)

Edit: Had to say this. If you have a problem with liberal and secular ideals, it's a different thing. I respect all thoughts regarding what kind of a socio-political system should be in Pakistan. But to pick out tweets of a few obvious idiots, slap in some poems, slap in some events, and then say liberals are too powerful is sadly hilarious, and garbage. In the entire history of Pakistan, the laws and decisions have been influenced and guided by mullahs except in the 60s under Gen. Ayub and in 2000-2007 under Gen. Musharraf. All of Pakistan's despairs have been because of these people. If you see more people inclining towards secularism and liberalism, it is because of the success of other nations in it, and the failure of Pakistan's state in its history under religious influence of corrupt mullahs.

Blame yourselves, cry, do whatever you want, but this won't stop. Fight ideas with ideas, unfortunately your idea has failed Pakistan so far, and continues fail it today. Lal Masjid is a prime example; any and all major country shutting protests in the last decade ( you know by who ) are an example!
By ur logic Islam was bound to fail in the presence of long standing empires like Rome & Persia.... themselves hugely favorable to a kind of educated, secular elite which forbade any excessive kindness n goodness propounded by religions ( including Islam) & supported perverted forms of freedom like homosexuality, LGBT rights etc etc just like their modern liberal counterparts today!

Islam was an ideology that came to bring mankind out of the mess it went into!

Trying to look all knowing n cool n bashing Islam n for that matter all religions is stupidity! Islam has at it's core tawheed ONENESS .... this in itself is the ideology of the future, the zenith where everything.... Every consciousness will ultimately reach! Denying it is futile no matter how stylish u make it to look! :pakistan:
 
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themselves hugely favorable to a kind of educated, secular elite which forbade any excessive kindness n goodness propounded by religions

Sorry but that doesn't make sense. How does being educated and secular prevent one from being kind and good-hearted ??

Secondly, can you explain the cruelty practiced by religious movements like the Inquisitors in Europe, the Hindutva in India and the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan ??
 
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Sorry but that doesn't make sense. How does being educated and secular prevent one from being kind and good-hearted ??

Secondly, can you explain the cruelty practiced by religious movements like the Inquisitors in Europe, the Hindutva in India and the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan ??
Then why do secularists for the sake of cracking the nuts out of logic, have always in history supported those things which by human consciousness were considered bad deplorable n disgusting like individual freedom to the point of becoming anti social elements in society like already mentioned LGBT stuff n all kinds of perversions... Who would in their right mind allow such filth to spread n normalize in societies?!!
And when reactionary pressure stirs up, liberals say ... c these barbarians how cruel r they! No freedom of expression n bla bla bla!
Inquisition etc r issues of Christianity however as Muslims v do believe the message essentially was the same from day 1 but was changed through human intervention hence the revisions were sent down by the Almighty through His prophets to every ppl of every civilization. Some named some not!
As far as Afghan Taliban r concerned don't try to school them or label them trying to imitate same flawed line of thinking like white man's burden to civilize nations of the world!

As far as Afghan Taliban r concerned don't try to school them or label them trying to imitate same flawed line of thinking like white man's burden to civilize nations of the world!

They r a product of their own sensitivities n the way those ppl have evolved in that 1of the harshest parts of the world!
They r ok with the way they r ... More puritanical than other societies like us can even imagine, being influenced by luxuries n material wealth of all kinds!
 
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Then why do secularists for the sake of cracking the nuts out of logic, have always in history supported those things which by human consciousness were considered bad deplorable n disgusting like individual freedom to the point of becoming anti social elements in society like already mentioned LGBT stuff n all kinds of perversions

1. You ignore the presence of a sub-culture of gay sex, many times forced, in India, Pakistan and Afghanistan.

2. In the USSR, gays were punished.

however as Muslims v do believe the message essentially was the same from day 1 but was changed through human intervention hence the revisions were sent down by the Almighty through His prophets to every ppl of every civilization.

Well, I do not want to answer to that as that is a theological argument, not political, and and such discussions are not allowed on the forum.

As far as Afghan Taliban r concerned don't try to school them or label them trying to imitate same flawed line of thinking like white man's burden to civilize nations of the world!

I am not imitating the Western White man's thinking ( though it was the Western White man who created the Taliban ).

All I am saying is that in Afghanistan the Taliban during their rule did not suppress the uncivilized and cruel behavior present for centuries among its rural population. And that led to such incidents as the 2015 lynching to death of Farkhunda Malikza in Kabul. How can any enlightened person support the Taliban ??

They r a product of their own sensitivities n the way those ppl have evolved in that 1of the harshest parts of the world!

Other parts of the word, for example certain regions in Russia, are harsh too in terms of environment. But they don't go about lynching people to death over charges of religious blasphemy. At least not in these times.

They r ok with the way they r

Tell me, why is the USA government OK with the Taliban becoming the government or at least part of the government ??

liberals and mullahs both are the biggest threats to this nation.

Who is a "liberal" ??
 
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