Let's get our nuclear weapons out of Turkey

[Indus Pakistan]

Do you know about popularity of yankees in Turkey ? It's subzero

Yes I do. Policy and popularity are not the same. I am reading a book "Turks: journey of Thousand years" which covers the Turkish journey from borders of China to borders of Europe. Two things stand out. Turkish ability to adapt. Turkish genius for going with where the future is.

You may have issues with the West. So did the Germans. So did the Eastern Europeans.So did the Jews. However one by one they have found a position within the larger West where each is comfortable. This process has not been easy. For the Germans it took two wars to shape up. For the Jews it took holocaust and now Israel is firmly a piller of the West even geographically distant. Therefore in the fullness of time so shall Turkey. And USA needs Turkey firmly entrenched in the West because (a) to keep Russians tethered (b) to keep Israel secure. Only if Russia were to drop it's hostility toward the West and become a docile underling by joining in with the Western order would Turkey find itself out in the cold. However I doubt that is going to happen.

Instead we will see the process began by Ataturk in 1920 reach it's natural conclusion over the next 20-30 years. Turks will increasingly become secular to the point where their everyday lives will be no differant from any other Westerner. Key goalposts are (1) Gays will become acceptable. First in law then in practice (2) Female rights will exceed males. First in law then in practice. (3) Death penalty wil become a distint memory. This process is already well under way.

Most Pakistani members equate Erdogan to some new Sultan of the Ummah. The truth is the Islamic resurgence inside Turkey is no differant from Christian Democrats in Western Europe. They are just political consertives. AKP will be no differant to Christian Democrats in Germany.

This process can only change course as I mentioned if Russia decides to throw the towel. As that is not going to happen anytime soon the underlying dynamics that pull Turkey west will continue. Who can blame Turkey? What exactly is the alternative? Iran? Syria? Iraq? Saudia Arabia? Pakistan? Afghanistan? So there is only one way to go.

The West.

Ps. I have been watching out to see if Turkey would repeal the death penalty. If it did that would be entirely justified given what happened. Thus far Turkey has not repealed it despite the underlying emotion. That tells me the ruling class in Turkey have their eyes still on the West. For comparison Pakistan went back to death penalty after APS terrorist attack despite EU applying pressure not to do so.

 

[cloud4000]

1- Oh boy no evidence you say ha, tell you just a couple of them leaked to the press recently. Gulenists' communication way is a special-programmed software which can be downloaded via bluetooth between the Gulen network, and this software is hosted by the servers in the Usa. Now you tell me, the Usa who controls most of the internet data doesn't know about it ?

2- Gulen movement's head Fetullah Gulen lives in the Usa, according to the Turkish intelligence reports he is oftenly visited by the CIA, and some officials of the Usa. Do you think they just drank tea and chatted ?

3- It's known fact that Usa put inside men to the countries' governance via CIA operations to control American benefits. They did it in Iran. They did it before in Turkey at September 12 coup. Chief of CIA Turkey, Paul Henze during an interview with famous journalist Mehmet Ali Briand in 2003 said that the diplomat who brought the news told him " Your boys have done it " just after coup. Your boys have failed at this time.

4- According to intelligence reports CIA used Gulenists in Turkey to change governments when "needed". In our case Usa just wanted to topple Erdoğan who got stronger than Usa wishes, and they have failed.

Everything is crystal clear. You can keep denying but this coup attempt was CIA's job. No official wil show up and say " The USA is behind it " but you will understand when Turkey - Usa relations got worse and worse in every aspect.

CIA is always everybody's favorite whipping boy, and you are no exception. It's so easy to blame US for Turkey's problems because this has been Erdogan's modus operandi from day one. The man is a polarizing figure who has made many enemies. But if it makes you feel better, so be it.

Moral of the story: if the current Turkish government was in the interest of the US, the US would be supportive of the govt from the very first minute. If it isn't, it waits for the outcome of the coup (like it happened) and then decides on what to say. Same like in Egypt; Morsi got toppled and Sisi got accepted and supported by the US and EU, simply because he suits US and Israel's interests. This is how much the US and EU value 'democracy'. They swing and twist as they see fit for their own interests

Wow. A country that protects its own interests. What a novel concept! As for Morsi, he was overthrown, not at the behest of US, but Saudi Arabia, who not only bankrolled the coup. In reality, Egyptian-US relations soured after Sisi came to power, and haven't improved much.

 

[dadeechi]

Nope dude, they can't take them because simply they need Turkey.

Why do you think NATO would still need Turkey when Turkey is flirting with SCO, Russia & China?

Today, Turkey is at the same cross roads as Pakistan

The usefulness of both Turkey and Pakistan for NATO are decreasing by the day.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

I wonder where is Pakistan standing in all this. I pray Turks get know of theIR real enemies and their true intention. Pakistan is definitely on TURKS side...

Love to the nice and humble people of Turkey and Azerbaijan. WE THREE ARE ONE ! ! !

Why do you think NATO would still need Turkey when Turkey is flirting with SCO, Russia & China?

Today, Turkey is at the same cross roads as Pakistan

The usefulness of both Turkey and Pakistan for NATO are decreasing by the day.

Zero sum game? It is not that simple. Relations rarely change over night. Turkey and US are still quite good with each other despite tensions. India is in bed with Russia too but that doesn't stop US to approach India for "interests".

 

[usernameless]

CIA is always everybody's favorite whipping boy, and you are no exception. It's so easy to blame US for Turkey's problems because this has been Erdogan's modus operandi from day one. The man is a polarizing figure who has made many enemies. But if it makes you feel better, so be it.



Wow. A country that protects its own interests. What a novel concept! As for Morsi, he was overthrown, not at the behest of US, but Saudi Arabia, who not only bankrolled the coup. In reality, Egyptian-US relations soured after Sisi came to power, and haven't improved much.

And how are you so sure the CIA is not involved in such things? The hypocrisy of the US is well known. From supporting and making the Mujahideen in Afghanistan the good guys vs the Soviets and then declaring them terrorists later, from organizing coup in Iran against Mossadegh, organizing coup in Turkey (12 September) etc. All these are facts, which makes the CIA naturally very suspicious, to say the least. Add in the deliberate mud throwing of the Western politicians and media and we get a pretty solid indication who directly or indirectly supported the coup and see it succeed.

Yeah yeah, everything that happens in the ME is organized by Saudi Arabia and the gulf states. The US, though, is completely innocent, is merely playing the superman role and has absolutely no involvement in anything bad that happens, right? At least you made me chuckle, though, so thanks for that

 

[Indus Pakistan]

And this process of "Go West" is discernible in all Turkic nations. Central Asia is also paddling "West" despite being geographically way in the east. My brother just came back from Alma Aty, Kazakstan. His overriding impression was a nation nation desperate to be part of West but cruel geography has placed them in the wrong location. Apparently the Kazaks have moved their capital from Alma Aty not too far north of Islamabad, west to near the Russian border by building a new capital - Astana. Azerbaijan which geographically is no more European then Iran (it shares a that title with Iranian Azarbaijan) and Baku is pointed toward Iran only 100 miles north of Iran. They have spent millons of dollars to host the "European Grand Prix" all in a effort to create the image that they are in the heart of Europe when they are anything but in the heart of Europe. Only a country which is pining to be European would name it's GP "European" as rest use their own names like Silverstone, UK, Magny Cours, French GP or Nuremburgh, German GP. In fact most of Central Asia is member of Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE ) and theefore to make any fundamental conclusion out of the present crisis in Turkey is to ignore the deep historical and economic forces at play.

Link > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_for_Security_and_Co-operation_in_Europe

 

[damm1t]

CIA is always everybody's favorite whipping boy, and you are no exception. It's so easy to blame US for Turkey's problems because this has been Erdogan's modus operandi from day one. The man is a polarizing figure who has made many enemies. But if it makes you feel better, so be it.

I am not making empty analyses here, you are talking to a guy who makes his searches multidimensional and good at these stuff both at university and after it. So, my friend, this is how it works, you can climb to the top but keeping this status is the hardest part. Unfortunately for the rest of the world that this is what Usa is doing good and keeping him still number 1. Let's have a look at Egypt, they toppled elected leader Morsi with a military coup. Sisi took the lead. Mursi, Muslim brotherhood, Erdoğan.. They were just too dangerous for Usa interests. The west sold multibillion $ arms to Egyptian army and today the IMF gave 12 billion $ credit to Egypt. Try connecting the dots, not 170+ IQ is required for this.

 

[usernameless]

Yes I do. Policy and popularity are not the same. I am reading a book "Turks: journey of Thousand years" which covers the Turkish journey from borders of China to borders of Europe. Two things stand out. Turkish ability to adapt. Turkish genius for going with where the future is.

You may have issues with the West. So did the Germans. So did the Eastern Europeans.So did the Jews. However one by one they have found a position within the larger West where each is comfortable. This process has not been easy. For the Germans it took two wars to shape up. For the Jews it took holocaust and now Israel is firmly a piller of the West even geographically distant. Therefore in the fullness of time so shall Turkey. And USA needs Turkey firmly entrenched in the West because (a) to keep Russians tethered (b) to keep Israel secure. Only if Russia were to drop it's hostility toward the West and become a docile underling by joining in with the Western order would Turkey find itself out in the cold. However I doubt that is going to happen.

Instead we will see the process began by Ataturk in 1920 reach it's natural conclusion over the next 20-30 years. Turks will increasingly become secular to the point where their everyday lives will be no differant from any other Westerner. Key goalposts are (1) Gays will become acceptable. First in law then in practice (2) Female rights will exceed males. First in law then in practice. (3) Death penalty wil become a distint memory. This process is already well under way.

Most Pakistani members equate Erdogan to some new Sultan of the Ummah. The truth is the Islamic resurgence inside Turkey is no differant from Christian Democrats in Western Europe. They are just political consertives. AKP will be no differant to Christian Democrats in Germany.

This process can only change course as I mentioned if Russia decides to throw the towel. As that is not going to happen anytime soon the underlying dynamics that pull Turkey west will continue. Who can blame Turkey? What exactly is the alternative? Iran? Syria? Iraq? Saudia Arabia? Pakistan? Afghanistan? So there is only one way to go.

The West.

Ps. I have been watching out to see if Turkey would repeal the death penalty. If it did that would be entirely justified given what happened. Thus far Turkey has not repealed it despite the underlying emotion. That tells me the ruling class in Turkey have their eyes still on the West. For comparison Pakistan went back to death penalty after APS terrorist attack despite EU applying pressure not to do so.

That's an interesting analysis, and quite an accurate one. However, where I don't agree with, is that the West is only important for Turkey right now due to the lack of alternatives. Once the rest of the world catches up, Turks will gladly and quickly diversify trade, projects, pacts etc. with non-Western countries, this I am very sure of. I am not talking about 50 years, I'm talking about hundreds of years. The West is only the way as there are no left and right turns at all at the moment (there are, but Turkey should play along till it and the rest of the world develops more).

I strongly hope the Turkish society will not become like the average West European society; indifference towards others, selfish, individualistic, materialistic, making too less children, less love for fatherland among other things. But increasing wealth will unfortunately bring us there, i'm afraid.

 

[bsruzm]

United States of America is a very Reliable Ally.

Choice between

*USA

All of Muslim Ummah, the Turks will choose USA everytime. This is not my opinion. This is what Turks will do. Ask them.

No for both.

 

[HAIDER]

No for both.

Atleast Turkish people get some education from American institute, but Ummah...lolzz...Ummah is the worst joke.

 

[bsruzm]

Atleast Turkish people get some education from American institute, but Ummah...lolzz...Ummah is the worst joke.

Thanks to people like you.

 

[HAIDER]

Thanks to people like you.

Don't worry we all in same boat....

 

[dadeechi]

Zero sum game? It is not that simple. Relations rarely change over night. Turkey and US are still quite good with each other despite tensions. India is in bed with Russia too but that doesn't stop US to approach India for "interests".

True. India has relations with Russia but Indo-US love affair is directed towards China not Russia. Hence it works.

But in case of Turkey and Pakistan, you moving towards China does not help US at all.

That is the difference.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

True. India has relations with Russia but Indo-US love affair is directed towards China not Russia. Hence it works.

But in case of Turkey and Pakistan, you moving towards China does not help US at all.

That is the difference.

I get your point. I agree to some extent too but didn't Pakistan having close relations with China helped US in approaching China? Remember who introduced US and China with each other? Nixon's secret visit to China from Islamabad?

 

[dadeechi]

I get your point. I agree to some extent too but didn't Pakistan having close relations with China helped US in approaching China? Remember who introduced US and China with each other? Nixon's secret visit to China from Islamabad?

True. But then USSR was the strategic rival/threat to US. Today China has taken over that place from USSR. Hence today's Pak-China relations would be viewed upon differently.