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Lee Kuan Yew

1. Bureaucracy is not a bad word. It stands for organisation and order. China arguabelly invented Bureaucracy as we call it today. British modern bureaucracy was originated from France which copycated theirs from Imperial Chinese exams, school system and civil servant system at its root. "Indian bureaucracy" though, is nothing more than a third rate copycat of the British Raj's.
2. Caste system has EVERYTHING to do with economy. If you're good as an "untouchable" or some "low" caste, you're destined to carry suitcases or as a sexually-abused and underpaid house maid for some "high" castes one day.

3. Political organization and levels of bureaucracy are not good in India,indeed few things India can do well, wonder why? Indians entrepreneurs are NOT competing world wide, neither are excelling by and large. Actually it's hard to find a single case of it.

The only traditional Indian entrepreneurs who were excelling were in British Eastern Africa where they competed with sub-sahra Africans or in places like Fiji where they go against their own; while the only modern Indian entrepreneurs who are "excelling" are in multiracial America, case in point Silicon Valley, where performances are not most valued, though, skin colour (the darker the better), clanish and trible relations, bribes, and intra-Indian ethnic group fights are. Mass Indian immigration and widespread shams in the recent decade amongst other factors largely contribute the fast demise of yesterday's Silicon Valley as a global tech centre. Plus, "successful" =//= money. I value an average-paid old science researcher who published a fantastic sci-tech paper in peer-reviewed sci tech jopurnals much much more than your Indian, or shall we call "British", billionair nuts such as Mittal (right spelling?) or Tata, most of them amass their fortunes mainly by cheating their own 82 IQ Indians using large bribes. Yeah right, excel on world stage...show me 1 sci-tech item on which India is amongst the best in the world, call centre aside, just 1? :rofl:

I thought of replying to you after reading first two lines i said enough with you .

It hurts to see some one who has potential to challenge in future and even frustrates you when you know they are coming to beat, since you have no competitive spirit :wave:
 
That's right. :wave: I am a Hong Kong Cantonese, of Hakka descent.



Lee Kuan Yew is a Singaporean, and I admire what he has done for his country.

Lee Kuan Yew do his best for independence of Singapore. Hakka people plaid important role for independence of Republic of Farmosa (Taiwan) in the past. Are you supporter for Hongkongers whos prefer an independence to Hong Kong ?
 
I can't wait to get this book. :yahoo:

And I don't understand the Indian butt-hurt about his comments. None of them was derogatory or inaccurate. It's true that India is not a traditional nation-state (founded on one ethnic group), but a patchwork of different ethnic groups and tribes, sometimes loosely unified by Hinduism. And that this incoherency will more often than not, at the earliest stages of development, stifle progress.
 
Lee Kuan Yew do his best for independence of Singapore. Hakka people plaid important role for independence of Republic of Farmosa (Taiwan) in the past. Are you supporter for Hongkongers whos prefer an independence to Hong Kong ?

Obviously not, HK independence is a joke.

HK independence parties got exactly zero votes at the last elections. :lol:
 
Mate Chinese growth story is an amazing one I agree with you but there are loop holes in that. A development without freedom and oppression is not worth it.

For every new road constructed or a new city planned there are thousands of common people tears associated with it. There are instances where when people reject to give their land to the authorities and they were forcefully evacuated.
On contrary, all east Asia success stories were done under authoritirian governments, that includes Japan when its prime was under a defacto one party government. Then the economic development all went downhill from there except Singapore which is still under an authoritirian government.
 
Obviously not, HK independence is a joke.

HK independence parties got exactly zero votes at the last elections. :lol:

In this moment is so, people is fear from "Tienanmen Square incident" also known as the "June Fourth Incident" became known as the Tiananmen Square Massacre . Recently I have my bussiness in Hongkong, after party, with little wine, to be honest my partner said he like Hongkhong is no China, no Brittain same as Swiss in Europe, finance center of Asia.
 
In this moment is so, people is fear from "Tienanmen Square incident" also known as the "June Fourth Incident" became known as the Tiananmen Square Massacre . Recently I have my bussiness in Hongkong, after party, with little wine, to be honest my partner said he like Hongkhong is no China, no Brittain same as Swiss in Europe, finance center of Asia.

LOL, what are you talking about? We have a public demonstration every single year on the anniversary of the Tiananmen incident.

There is some regionalism between us Hong Kongers and Mainlanders, but at the end of the day we are all Chinese. You guys (Vietnamese) are foreigners. It's a completely separate issue.
 
As they have embraced the magic of Adam Smith’s marketplace, Asian economies have grown at unprecedented rates. In a nation of 1.3 billion, China has raised more than 600 million people out of conditions of abject poverty and created a rapidly expanding middle class already larger than the entire population of the United States. On its current trajectory, for the first time in history, millions of individuals will experience a one-hundred-fold increase in their standard of living in a single lifetime. In Europe, that took one thousand years.
More like: In China, that took thousands of years.

The article's writers seems to have selective memory. It is as if China suddenly sprang from Mao's forehead at the end of WW II. What happened to all that talk about China being a 'civilizational nation'? Were there no abject poverty in China all those years?

After three decades of double-digit growth, an economy that was smaller than Spain’s in 1980 now ranks second in the world and will become number one in the next decade. Do China’s leaders intend to displace the United States as the predominant power in Asia in the foreseeable future? Lee Kuan Yew answers: “Of course. Why not? Their reawakened sense of destiny is an overpowering force.” Will a China that has risen to become the world's largest economy follow the path chosen by Japan and Germany, accepting its place within the postwar order created by the United States? Lee says decidedly not. “It is China’s intention to become the greatest power in the world—and to be accepted as China, not as an honorary member of the west.”

Nevertheless, Western ideals of individuals’ basic rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness have become part of the mental geography of China’s “golden billion,”
who are becoming increasingly part of the world outside China.
What is 'The West' began to move away from being geographical and towards notional at the end of WW II. If the Western ideals of individuals’ basic rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness have become 'part of the mental geography' in the East, particularly in China, as Mr. Lee put it, then China will be a member of this notional West. This membership is not petitioned by, or nominated for, or least of all forcibly entered, ridiculous as it may sound that China may force herself into this club at the resistance of its members. It will be as natural as when China adopted Marxism and membered in the communist bloc. One cannot have the spots of a leopard but calls oneself a lion.

Lee thinks this bodes well for the future of the Asia-Pacific: “peace and security in the region will turn on whether China emerges as a xenophobic, chauvinistic force, bitter and hostile to the West, or educated and involved in the ways of the world, more cosmopolitan, more internationalized and outward looking.”
Either path will depend on the leadership the Chinese people can produce and what they produce will depend on the characters and quality of the Chinese people themselves. Like many relationships in life that are in constant push/pull dynamics, a leader can be backwardly or forwardly visionary and in during his reign, his vision and policies can be either accepted and the people follows or rejected and there will be a revolution, hopefully peaceful via the ballet box.

In the competition between East and West, he expects Asia to overshadow the Euro-Atlantic powers. The principal reasons why have more to do with culture than with numbers. In his view, “Westerners have abandoned an ethical basis for society, believing that all problems are solvable by a good government. In the East, we start with self-reliance.”
Not true, sir. When China engaged in the Marxist experiment, that was a complete abandonment of that self-reliant ethics. Mao and his fellow communists considered China's past, as that glorious 'civilizational nation', to be shameful and backward, and that the Marxist future will have China into the inevitable "worker's paradise" where the government is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. All wisdom flows from 'The Party' and dissenters should be 'reeducated'.
 
Lee Kuan Yew ain't kidding today India is vastly different than yesterday India which was composed of tons of Principality & City States, but it has been unified twice under the Mauryan Dynasty in 321-185 BCE & the Gupta Dynasty in 320-550 CE. India is not a natural states in the original sense of the word. India is an artificial country the same as Indonesia (do you know we used to be called East India), but does being an "Artificial Country" actually lessen India in the world stage? There are tons of successful Artificial country like the Unites States & Germany.

List of princely states of India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
There are tons of successful Artificial country like the Unites States & Germany.

your comparison of your home country to india is apt, but not to the quoted two. firstly, germany is definitely a nation-state founded by ethnic germans. and the usa is still fairly homogenous with a white american population at 65-70% of the population. maybe hispanic migration will change that, but right now, it can't be compared to india and indonesia, where the largest ethnic groups form a plurality but not a majority.
 

The article's writers seems to have selective memory. It is as if China suddenly sprang from Mao's forehead at the end of WW II. What happened to all that talk about China being a 'civilizational nation'? Were there no abject poverty in China all those years?

Im sure you know very well that the writer is talking about the industrialization of China, where in the West the process underwent a slow gradual shift into the unknown whereas in China the process is condensed largely due to the existence of established road maps (to industrialization) and technology.


What is 'The West' began to move away from being geographical and towards notional at the end of WW II. If the Western ideals of individuals’ basic rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness have become 'part of the mental geography' in the East, particularly in China, as Mr. Lee put it, then China will be a member of this notional West. This membership is not petitioned by, or nominated for, or least of all forcibly entered, ridiculous as it may sound that China may force herself into this club at the resistance of its members. It will be as natural as when China adopted Marxism and membered in the communist bloc. One cannot have the spots of a leopard but calls oneself a lion.

So the Notional west encompasses concepts and ideas and broad as "pursuit of hapiness, liberty and human rights?" These ideas are found all over the world before the West self appointed themselves as champions of freedom.
How about 'Notional East' - loyalty, family/community, hard work. What if Chinese lay claims that any county that possess these ideals are actually members of the 'notional East'?


Either path will depend on the leadership the Chinese people can produce and what they produce will depend on the characters and quality of the Chinese people themselves. Like many relationships in life that are in constant push/pull dynamics, a leader can be backwardly or forwardly visionary and in during his reign, his vision and policies can be either accepted and the people follows or rejected and there will be a revolution, hopefully peaceful via the ballet box.


Absolutely. Then again, this applies to all people and leaders in the world.


Not true, sir. When China engaged in the Marxist experiment, that was a complete abandonment of that self-reliant ethics. Mao and his fellow communists considered China's past, as that glorious 'civilizational nation', to be shameful and backward, and that the Marxist future will have China into the inevitable "worker's paradise" where the government is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. All wisdom flows from 'The Party' and dissenters should be 'reeducated'.


Times change, and the party also changes. Mao is gone, the party has moved on.
 
India is a unique civilization. It is place where differences are preserved and nourished rather then assimiliating them in one single identity. Indians are good at accepting differences yet there is a cultural link which goes through every Indian. A South India worships the characters of Mahabharata but he gives them his own names. A north east Indian worships an avatar of Godess Durga.

All Indians should read the book "Being Different" by Rajiv Malhotra.

He explains how indians should not fall in the trap on defining their civilization on west term's. India is unique and diverse. We should preserve this diversity as it our greatest strength.
Taub call's it the 'anti-fragile'. The more contradictions it has the more powerful it becomes.
India is the Anti-Fragile.
 
Im sure you know very well that the writer is talking about the industrialization of China, where in the West the process underwent a slow gradual shift into the unknown whereas in China the process is condensed largely due to the existence of established road maps (to industrialization) and technology.
The omission of the truth that that China followed those maps misled the readers into believing somehow China was a genius. Sorry, but no matter how good am I at reading maps, no one would put me in the same category as explorers of the past who had to rely on stars and instincts.

So the Notional west encompasses concepts and ideas and broad as "pursuit of hapiness, liberty and human rights?" These ideas are found all over the world before the West self appointed themselves as champions of freedom.
How about 'Notional East' - loyalty, family/community, hard work. What if Chinese lay claims that any county that possess these ideals are actually members of the 'notional East'?
Those rights are enshrined into constitutions, enacted into laws, and enforced by the states. Family values are not.

Times change, and the party also changes. Mao is gone, the party has moved on.
Moved to where? What moral values have China's leadership adopted? Certainly not Marxism.
 
Friends who are familiar with my thinking know that I am a pan Asia-ist, in the sense that I think Asia without Western Powers behaving as Imperial powers, is long over due and that while Asians are connected with peoples and heritages continents away, the real need is for their connection with one another == I had thought of the piece below a worthy of a separate thread, a thread I wanted to title "Wake Up India, and Move up", but perhaps it fits best on this thread as a continuation of the ideas presented in this thread -



China and India should stop fretting
By M K Bhadrakumar

As the world weighs the significance of President Barack Obama's cabinet appointments of John Kerry and Chuck Hagel as the secretaries of state and defense, it's clear that a varied list of countries - China, Russia, Iran, Israel, Turkey, the Philippines - are going to be more affected than others.

China appears quietly pleased that Kerry has cast aspersions on the United States' "pivot" to Asia. Russia would like to estimate that Kerry and Hagel are good for a revival of the "reset" of the bilateral relationship, except that it can't be sure yet. Iran and Israel are getting mixed signals, while Turkey gets a lousy feeling that it is holding the Syrian baby. And the Philippines feels a little bit lonesome in the South China Sea.

All in all, angst wells up in the bosom when something new is struggling to be born and uncertainty surrounds how good or bad it could be. The point is, the American economy is in distress; the world situation is turbulent and dangerous; the locus of world power is shifting; the US' capacity to "lead" is in difficulty; and most important, it is beginning to dawn on the American mind that an historic transition is under way. In sum, a long sunset has begun.

A sinking feeling
By all accounts, the Indian pundits too are gripped with anxiety. Some key assumptions on which the country's regional strategies were predicated through the past decade are being called into question.

Gnawing doubts arise as to what Kerry and Hagel signify for India's interests. The heart of the matter is that these powerful statesmen broadly share a world view that discounts the real worth of military force for the advancement of the US's global reach and influence.

In a manner of speaking, Kerry and Hagel are doing a favor to the Indians by making them realize a few home truths. India's internal problems are mounting and there is great urgency to reset the national priorities. India too needs an Obama-style re-prioritization of national policies.

More than priorities, this is also a matter of self-awareness of the limitations of power in the contemporary world situation. Some inspiring views have been articulated by Hagel and Kerry about the efficacy of solving regional issues through military force, and, more important, on the preference to "engage" adversaries in a calm and rational manner.

Meanwhile, Hagel has been dragged into a storm in an Indian tea cup over a previously unreleased 2011 speech that he made at Oklahoma's Cameron University, which was been brought to light by a US website with conservative leanings just as his appointment as defense secretary was about to be confirmed by the US Senate last Tuesday. Hagel apparently said, inter alia, in a wide-ranging speech:

"India for some time has always used Afghanistan as a second front, and India has over the years financed problems for Pakistan on that side of the border. And you can carry that into many dimensions, the point being [that] the tense, fragmented relationship between Pakistan and Afghanistan has been there for many, many years."

The Indian pundits are hopping mad. But then, this is not the first time that such a thing has been openly said. Way back in September 2009, then American (and North Atlantic Treaty Organization) commander in Afghanistan, General Stanley McChrystal made an assessment for the then secretary of defense Robert Gates that "increasing Indian influence in Afghanistan is likely to exacerbate regional tensions and encourage Pakistani countermeasures in Afghanistan or India."

The American officials are au fait with the decades old Indian mantra of a "second front" vis-a-vis Pakistan, but in the prevailing circumstances of Western military presence in the Hindu Kush, would have credited Indian policymakers with the discerning capacity to know what not to do.

Suffice to say, Hagel's 2011 speech had nothing stunningly new to it. However, the "course correction" of great interest to Indian interests lies somewhere else - what Kerry might have hinted in relation to America's "rebalancing" in Asia.

In the course of his Senate hearing, Kerry voiced support for the rebalancing policy, but added a caveat that he isn't convinced that increasing the US' military influence is critical yet, and pointing out that the US already has more bases in the region than any other nation. He also took note that Beijing is concerned about the increased number of US marines based in Australia. Kerry said:

"The Chinese ask what the United States is doing. 'They try to encircle us, what's going on' - and so every action has its reaction. We have to think thoughtfully about not creating a threat when there isn't one and understand where we can find bases for cooperation. I am not talking about retreating, I am simply trying to think about how we do this, not creating the reaction you don't like to create".

It was never quite realistic to imagine that the US was wedded to a Cold-War style containment strategy toward China, or that India would have a key role to play as the US's partner in the vast "Indo-Pacific" region (stretching from the Strait of Hormuz to Vanuatu), which Indian pundits unilaterally claim as their country's sphere of influence.

A new traction
Maybe, Hagel and Kerry disappoint them. But what saves the day for Delhi today is, that the policymakers "anticipated" Kerry even before he expressed the need to revisit the rebalancing policy. The National Security Advisor Shiv Shankar Menon in a candid speech at Delhi on Monday before an audience of "China-watchers" took the bull by the horns:

"I have made it clear that in my opinion talk of Sino-Indian maritime rivalry is overdone and that it is not inevitable… In geopolitical terms, and in terms of the naval capabilities of the different navies other than the US that operates between Suez and Hawaii, this [Indo-Pacific] space still consists of three distinct areas: the Indian Ocean, the western Pacific, and the seas near China, (namely, the South China Sea, the East Sea and the Sea of Japan).

"Both India and China have a common interest in keeping the sea lines of communication through the Indian and Pacific Oceans open… Over the last decade an Indian presence in the waters east of Malacca and a Chinese presence west of Malacca have become the new norm. Both have happened simultaneously and without apparent friction. These are natural consequences of the development of India and China, and of their increasing dependence on the world as their economies globalize.

"The reason I cavil about calling the Indo-Pacific one space is because if we do, there is a danger of prescribing one medicine for the different security ailments that afflict the Indian Ocean, the seas near China, and the western Pacific
."

In retrospect, India's policymakers have done well to decline the persuasive invitation extended to it by Washington to be a "linchpin" in "America's Pacific Century" - to borrow the title of Hillary Clinton's famous article in the Foreign Affairs magazine written just 16 months ago. [1]

2012 stands out as having been a truly transformative year in the Sino-Indian normalization. True, the intractable border dispute remains unsettled; China's Tibetan wound festers; China's all weather friendship with Pakistan worries (albeit less and less) - yet, a new traction is coming into the India-China engagement. India has become China's single biggest market for "project exports", trade is on an upward curve, high-level exchanges are frequent, and the top officials have begun acknowledging that the two countries may have more in agreement over the emerging world order than what might separate them. Indeed, the latest evidence of the new traction is the proposal from Beijing to commence a structured "Afghan dialogue" with Delhi.

How does it all add up? What is there in it for India in the Obama-era US Asian strategies? Actually, there could be a lot if only India is geared up for it.

Only last week, the government-owned China Daily newspaper wrote that the US policies may create "f[]friction[/I]" in Sino-American ties, but Washington "needs" cooperation - "The US needs cooperation with China, and vice versa, as cooperation helps promote the economic interests of both countries … The huge Chinese market potential will undoubtedly serve as an anchor for bilateral trade. If US exports to China grow by 12% annually over the next four years, a total of 143,000 jobs could be created in the US."

What emerges is also that India lags far behind China in figuring out the logarithm (after tabling the entries) of what is on the mind of Kerry and Hagel - and Obama.
 
As you read the piece by Ambassador Bhadrakumar, please ask yourself if the schism that seems to appear between the kinds of ideas that seem to animate the Indian Diaspora and the kinds of Ideas that rational Indian leadership seems to be posing, is healthy - a more robust articulation, sustained for a period of time, of these ideas by Indian officials will help propel these ideas in to the general public sphere where they can get a hearing in a wider audience - and in this way prepare opinion not just to the challenges bu the identification of opportunities for regional alignments that can attenuate imperial reach of Western powers.
 
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