Last Air Battle On This Day

[SQ8]

I know about the embargo Santro but may be i did not explained my point..You had great relations with US prior to 65 offensive...Our leaders were making lot of hue and cry against the military aid you were getting from the yanks..In fact Nehru wrote a letter sharing the same concern to then US president way back in late 50's...We were promised that arms are not intended to be used against us...Embargo was imminent but was ignored by Pak generals and these are one of those comical errors that i was talking about in 65...When i said situation was not hopeless than i mean you guys were getting armed to teeths by the Americans and the parity in quality was very much there, in fact better in some accounts....Just look at the level of attacks and indian response...We did not open a new front in the east...Your navy raids were unanswered(even though PN did not achieve much)....Your fighters were equipped with A2A missiles. Even though they missed the kill frenzy leashed out by the cannons of your fighters it was good enough for a phycological edge...Our fighters had clear instructions to not engage....In other words India was defensive from the word go....The amount of defensive mind can be estimated from the most comical mistake that has the potential to embarrass even hitler for his misadventure in Russian winters....With 80% of Pakistan ammunition used viz-a-viz just 20% by India we went ahead with the cease fire... You know why?? - because we had no clue about that!!!!!!!...

Pakistani generals knew about all this, Our initial hands on in Sir Creek bold them even further and Yes Operation Gibaltar was a great plan but just militarily...It ignored the repercussions and we all know what happened then.......



I will humbly disagree.. In fact at that time USSR was the biggest enemy so joining hands with even communist China was not considered sin by USA.. This is where Ayub shared his services for his masters...Yes you are right about Pakistan offer for joint defence against a possible Chinese agression but it was in mid 50's. At that time Nehru was singing imaginary songs with his Chinese counterparts...However 61 changed the equation dramatically. Foe's Foe is a friend perfectly fit's here... So you are right that relation with China's improved even further with China after 65 war and US embargo because the China was only hope to counter India's modernization due to their newly found love with ruskies....but you are wrong when you say that China and Pak were not hand in gloves before 65.





I agree with all of the above and chose to pick this line which is very well written. And yes it is very logical to say that PAF did better than what they did in 65 however the difference this time was IAF performance. Anyways the result of the war is in front of us and hopefully no more misadventures by either side fructify(even in dreams)....

I need a little clarification on the highlighted.. how were they not allowed to fire???

Also.. the relations with the Chinese may have begun in prior to 65.. yet the actual military help arrived later...the IAF did attack in the east..you are incorrect.. but was equally as ineffective as in the west.'
No ground attack was launched in the east.. probably because of a lack of recourses.. or as our blinded historians like to put it..out of fear for a chinese reprisal(an ambiguous statement by the Chinese FO apparently did the trick..what it was is not known).
Ayub was still ready to capitulate for the Americans..before 65...
even going as far to offer abandoning the Chinese..

 

[deckingraj]

I need a little clarification on the highlighted.. how were they not allowed to fire???

I meant the instructions were don't engage especially in Dog-fights in the early part of the war because we did not know the performance of your A2A missile....Blogs by various IAF veterans is testamount to that. I will try to find a couple for you but can't promise...

Also.. the relations with the Chinese may have begun in prior to 65.. yet the actual military help arrived later...the IAF did attack in the east..you are incorrect.. but was equally as ineffective as in the west.'
No ground attack was launched in the east.. probably because of a lack of recourses.. or as our blinded historians like to put it..out of fear for a chinese reprisal(an ambiguous statement by the Chinese FO apparently did the trick..what it was is not known).
Ayub was still ready to capitulate for the Americans..before 65...
even going as far to offer abandoning the Chinese..

I might be wrong Santro but i believe Military help did arrive especially between 61-65. As said that Americans were looking out to mend ties with China and that's where Ayub become their very dear chocolate boy . Let me be clear Ayub might have not improved relations with Chinese for the sake of Pak-China relation but for the love of Yanks and he did act as the bridge b/w Communist China and Capitalist Yanks. Even you are saying that their FO made statement. it might be ambigous yet a clear indicator that things move moving rapidly between Pak and China....In fact there are unaccounted reports that Pak was more than ready to join hands with China to crush India in 61....All this can occur only if there are good solid ground, no???

You are right about our actions in east but it was very limited. By all accounts we can say east hardly saw any action...The reason was west. You guys had made life difficult for us and PAF was more than a match for IAF at that point...You initial raids on our Air-Fields(even if not effective to the likes of PAF) left a big dent on the phyche of IAF....and once you are on defensive there is hardly a chance to recover....

 

[Pakchina]

i still cant understand why with such a '' super airforce''pakistan lost the 1971 war. they could have pounded us Indians the same way the americans did the iraqi's. i can only pressume two ways, either the air superiority theory of the pakistani's is all crap or the pakistan army was courageless ( remember 95000 soldiers surrendering at one single time)

I know only one country which had lost a war that is India which lost the 1962 war against China and it was a real humiliation for India despite all the US and UK support. China had conquered large part of Northern India and retreated to avoid further humiliation for poor India amid also US and UK protests. Historians had also mentioned that the PLA could have penetrated deep inside India and marched to New Delhi to plant the Chinese flag. This is real and not a joke. Archives and books of that time had related such issue. But we still do not know why the PLA had not marched to the Indian Capital. In fact we never heard that Pakistan had lost a war against India and most of the Indo-Pak wars had resulted in a kind of draw between both countries.

 

[LAKHNAVI]

I know only one country which had lost a war that is India which lost the 1962 war against China and it was a real humiliation for India despite all the US and UK support. China had conquered large part of Northern India and retreated to avoid further humiliation for poor India amid also US and UK protests. Historians had also mentioned that the PLA could have penetrated deep inside India and marched to New Delhi to plant the Chinese flag. This is real and not a joke. Archives and books of that time had related such issue. But we still do not know why the PLA had not marched to the Indian Capital. In fact we never heard that Pakistan had lost a war against India and most of the Indo-Pak wars had resulted in a kind of draw between both countries.

you mean to say that you dont know about your own country which not only was defeated ,cut into two and whose brave soilders surrrendered on 16th dec 1971. sorry if you were not born then but didnt your father told you about that humiliating defeart.

 

[rockstarIN]

Keep the discussion in a good mood guys, it was very informative till now

 

[deckingraj]

PakChina and Lakhnavi it would be good if you spare this thread from childish comments..I believe this thread already has enough of the usual rhetoric from kids full on adrenaline shots...

 

[blackops]

@Blackops

Your repeated refusal to read what has been written in plain English, and to push in your preconceived notions instead, adds nothing to the quality of the discussion. Please stop to understand what Santro has written before jumping to reply.

Were you a fly on the wall counting how many planes were damaged? Who told you that there were no men to repair them? Have you a foggy idea about what the PAF headcount in maintenance was? When we struggle to account for their planes, you have an insiders information about their maintenance staff, their readiness and their adequacy. Are we supposed to roll over thunderstruck at your insights?

And why do you repeat what Santro says about their navy not knowing what they wanted from their air force as if it is a novel discovery of your own?

"the PAF offered little in retaliation, partly because of the paucity of non-Bengali technical personnel." this is how i came to know they were not able to repair the planes at a fast rate because many of the bangalies were not there

 

[SQ8]

"the PAF offered little in retaliation, partly because of the paucity of non-Bengali technical personnel." this is how i came to know they were not able to repair the planes at a fast rate because many of the bangalies were not there

Did you have a chance to go through my post..
The PAF was to offer nothing more than harassment.. THAT was the plan..
The raid on IAF airfield were to keep them shut down temporarily.. to reduce the attacks.. the idea was to make the IAF attack us and have them fight it out over our territory.

 

[blackops]

Santro this is not for you and as per your point i do agree with you

Did you have a chance to go through my post..
The PAF was to offer nothing more than harassment.. THAT was the plan..
The raid on IAF airfield were to keep them shut down temporarily.. to reduce the attacks.. the idea was to make the IAF attack us and have them fight it out over our territory.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Santro this is not for you and as per your point i do agree with you

(Thinking)(Hmm. Wonder whom he has in mind. I'd be running for cover if I were that guy)

 

[Windjammer]

Hence, back to the topic.
Gun Camera footage of F-86 Sabre of PAF shooting down an IAF Mig-21 during the last air battle of the 1971 war. .

 

[DeathGod]

Hence, back to the topic.
Gun Camera footage of F-86 Sabre of PAF shooting down an IAF Mig-21 during the last air battle of the 1971 war. .

LOLZ.......

 

[SQ8]

LOLZ....... [/QUOTE

Its hilarious.. how did that mig pilot get so stupid..

 

[DeathGod]

LOLZ....... [/QUOTE

Its hilarious.. how did that mig pilot get so stupid..

Actually its hilarious that how far people would go to prove their point.

Just adding that it is the gun camera footage of a mig being shot down doesnt prove any point.
There is as much possibility of it being real as it being doctored.

Doesnt stand as very credible evidence.

 

[Windjammer]

LOLZ....... [/QUOTE

Its hilarious.. how did that mig pilot get so stupid..

My dear, it's a wry smile from the Indians, since this was the second MIG-21 to be shot down by the obsolete Sabers, while a third was also brought down by the generation older MIG-19 (F-6). Post#155.