Last Air Battle On This Day

[Joe Shearer]

@ John Doe, take your head out and face the facts.
So far you have proved nothing but a pathetic troll and a real loser.

http://www.whattofix.com/images/CranialRectalEntanglement.jpg

Why don't you simply reply his questions? The discussion on cranial rectal entanglement could begin later, after we know the facts, and can figure out for ourselves who is a pathetic troll and a real loser.

As of now, the evidence is ambiguous.

 

[Windjammer]

Why don't you simply reply his questions? The discussion on cranial rectal entanglement could begin later, after we know the facts, and can figure out for ourselves who is a pathetic troll and a real loser.

As of now, the evidence is ambiguous.

There was no reason for me to post any irrelevant pictures after a two weeks lapse. The fact is I had the pictures in my possession since 2002, but I was unable to locate them, however since I stumbled across them, I decided to post them. Since I had to pour cold water on a certain frivilious character, reluctantly, I had to mention the source, albeit certain parameters prohibit me from disclosing personalities and contributors. ( Sir Murad K and respectable Taimi Khan can verify this)
I assume you will pass your judgement, without compromising on the Flags, and will boldly call a Spade, a Spade. !!!

@ John Doe Time to die hot shot, or more appropriately, get wasted. The best description to describe you is as, a time wasting weasel. All your efforts and energy has been directed to discredit me, without making any logic or counter proofs. Moreover you exposed you sorry mental status by even contradicting the PAF official artist, S M A Hussaini. You do really need some help.
I know how many times I drove through Shaheen Chowk to visit the offices of the Air Directorate, however what is confusing is that how a cockroach like John Doe has been allowed to crawl all over and smear this prestigious forum.
You see, after i posted my pictures of the MIG-21 being shot down by an F-86 of the PAF, I was informed/posted, that some other source was also in possession of the same image, who had astonishingly pasted them back in 2003. Long long time before i joined any forum or when John Doe was merely an itch in his dad's pants.

Google Image Result for http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/1971war/images/iaf_mig21_s.jpg

Well John Doe, can you even comprehend, who is the real Brick now, you pathetic little brick.

You have two choices, either apologies publicly for being such an irritating time waster or have some shame and flush your self to oblivion. We will indeed not miss you.

@Joe Shearer Hope it wouldn't be too difficult for you to pass your unbiased judgement as to who is the troll/ loser in this thread. And please by all means, seek any acknowledgement from Sir Murad K or Super Mod, Taimi Khan.
And just for reference, here is another of my calling cards.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

So much "Wind has been broken" on this thread, but to no avail; the hot air still persists.

 

[FreekiN]

Actually its hilarious that how far people would go to prove their point.

Just adding that it is the gun camera footage of a mig being shot down doesnt prove any point.
There is as much possibility of it being real as it being doctored.

Doesnt stand as very credible evidence.

>calls a photo directly from a gun camera, non-evidence
>calls a non disputed picture, uncredible
>calls it doctored
>no counter argument at all whatsoever

Just can't accept it, can ya?

 

[Areesh]

@WINDJAMMER:

Type all the rot you want, up to you.

Where is the proof of your claims and statements? Only a foolish LIAR or a shameless LIAR keeps writing back once it has been proved that he is a LIAR.

Oh and one more thing I just remembered: YOU ARE A LIAR, and one who got caught while LYING!

On a parting note: STOP LYING!

Or as they say in German: Du bist ein DAMN LIAR, so bitte nicht LIE!

 

[Areesh]

Go and die a slow death John Doe, since in desperation, you couldn't even wait for the one you thanked to pass the judgement.
It can only be termed as "The last grasp of the dying breed".
You pathetic loser and a serial troller, obviously have no moral values or shame. You are a disgrace to both your own community in general and the forum family in particular. No Joy John Doe.

Leave him. What I guess from his posts in another thread is that he is in 50's or 60's but from what I conclude from his posts in this thread is that he behaves like a lady who is in her late thirty's and is desperate for marriage but couldn't find one.

It might be his frustration because according to him an IAF POW used to live in his neighborhood. May be the stories he used to hear from him about IAF's epic fail are a reason behind this frustration. Anyways you made your point. You presented your proof. Let him behave like a loser, you better move on. He would take to time to grow up or else he would die with the same traits of immaturity. Now he is asking for date later he would ask something even more stupid. So let him troll and move on.

 

[KS]

@John Doe :

One gentle request. Stop wasting your time.

Speaking from experience. As he once was arguing that there was a serious separatist insurgency going on in my hometown that even me who was born,brought and living there for quarter of a century did not know and he was thoroughly shameless to give blast pictures taken in some other city as blast in my own city

 

[John Doe]

@Freekin :

Its been a long thread. Let me reply to your post instead of the person to whom it was addressed , assuming that you are a honest and logical person who missed some posts.
>calls a photo directly from a gun camera, non-evidence

It is certainly a HUD shot of a MIG 21. But whose Mig 21 and when was this taken? Remember Windjammer's claim that this is from the dogfight on Dec 17th? Can you see any proof of this? Did you see how he got caught lying multiple times? Tell me, do you like being lied to?


>calls a non disputed picture, uncredible

Of course the shootdown of the Mig 21 happened on Dec 17th! Even the IAF says so, why would I deny that?
TIme and time again, WJ posts photos and statements which are from some other event and tailors them to his convenience. You should join me in insuring that this forum remains a serious defense forum. Don't you agree?
Would you prefer that the rest of us post obscure photos from some other war and claim that this was the shootdown of Leslie Middlecoat, Rafiqui or Changezi?



@Areesh

Sorry boy, its tough on children like you when they see their idols caught stealing and lying. I don't mind you hitting out. I have been missing you since the last time you choose to make a hasty exit. I see that your puppeteer has called you again!
About my age, actually I am a sprightly 94 years and 109 days old. Though I still party like a rock star with our common pal, Glenn Q!

"Like a G6, like a , like a G6............."

 

[Areesh]

@Areesh

Sorry boy, its tough on children like you when they see their idols caught stealing and lying. I don't mind you hitting out. I have been missing you since the last time you choose to make a hasty exit. I see that your puppeteer has called you again!
About my age, actually I am a sprightly 94 years and 109 days old. Though I still party like a rock star with our common pal, Glenn Q!

"Like a G6, like a , like a G6............."

See. That's exactly what I was talking about. You try hard but you fail to get over your traits of cheapness. May be in future you might be successful in your campaign. Anyways thanks for posting the photo of the alleged wreckage of F-104 in response to WJ's 01-13-2011 post on 02-01-2011. It took you some time but at least WJ's post of F-86's gun camera on 02-01-2011 did provided you the impetus to post it a few weeks later. You should thank him for that. Good attempt in face saving and chest thumping though.

About my hasty exit I have spent enough time on this forum to realize the intellect of the poster and that is what I am asking WJ to do. Make a hasty exit. What good it would bring to us to waste time on some old dumb soul? After date you might ask for IAF's Mig 21 pilot National ID card which we might not be able to provide it to you. And you might be thumping chest with bold font that you win.

Sorry but you definitely need to grow up.

 

[deckingraj]

Guys....can you all please calm down???? Irrespective of the conclusion of this internet war things will not change....Facts will remain facts whether we like it or not...Though ideally one should not run away from shortcomings of the past(be it IAF, be it PAF) but then what to do about foolish pride???

Anyhow Let me try to bring sanity back here....


@Areesh and @Windjammer this is a Pakistan Defense Forum....The onus of keeping it clean is far more on your shoulders than your Indian counterparts, no???

Secondly since this thread has been opened by Windjammer, i believe the onus is on him to prove to the satisfaction of others. However it is only necessary if the objective is to find out the truth. No one is denying about the Mig-21 loss. In fact this was acknowledged by IAF way back in 70's.....There is nothing more to find out in that aspect....What is the heat of discussion at the moment is the manner in which certain claims are being made which we believe are backed up by false information....

Now if anyone disagree's with what i have written up above please do me a favor and explain why....


@John - it will help you prove your point if you don't reply in Kind and stick to the questions...
@WindJammer - the same applies to you...
@Areesh : If i were you i will stay away from the discussion unless and until i have provided some facts backed up by proofs to debunk claims, even if it means collecting data from previous posts and sharing it here for the benefits of others.

so once again people shall we give it a try???

 

[John Doe]

Hey, I am ok with anything, see if I have been anything less than civil.

The only thing that I cannot stand is people lying their keesters off! And hey, which one of us has never ever lied ? But when caught, at least we man up and say we lied. Not spew the same lies again and again.......

Again, to the serious members who are reading this thread and have something honest and credible to contribute, welcome and lets keep at it

 

[SQ8]

Well.. for the sake of clearing the air and continuing the discussion.. lets figure out if this could be the gun cam film..

Using both ACIG..and other sources...including word of mouth.
two kills I can confirm as true.
The first would be 14th dec.. by Flt lt Aamir sharif flying a F-6.
The second would be on 17th dec greenhorn Flt lt Maqsood's kill flying a Sabre Mk.6

both on the western front..

Jagan Mohan lists 8 mig-21's lost in 71.
So with the above two.. that leaves 6.. for being lost to AAA and/or operational accidents.
So.. NO other Mig-21 was lost to A2A.
Now.. I recall seeing a gun camera shot very similar to the one linked to by WJ in post #197 in the PAF official history of a Mig-21..published in 1988...under the account of Flt lt Amir...
And I am assuming the PAF isnt that callous to publish false pictures.
Which leaves the possibility of the gun cam film of Flt lt Aamer Sharif...
However..this also establishes..that any further claims regarding IAF mig-21's shot down in A2A combat be treated with skepticism.

 

[John Doe]

As I have said in a previous post, it may be very well the photo of an IAF Mig21 shot down on Dec 17th. Its just that there is no evidence as such. Till then, I would hesitate.

Plus, if this is from Flt.Lt.Amir, it would prove that this photo does not belong in this thread at all.After all, we are talking about the last day of the war.

About Amir Sharif, I googled him and oddly, there isn't a lot of info about him except for this very forum in the following post:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/40522-flash-back-air-war-1971-a.html#post569896

Truthfully, the IAF plane does not look like it got shot down Also the IAF does not show any A to A shootdown of a Mig 21 on Dec 14th.

 

[Windjammer]

Well.. for the sake of clearing the air and continuing the discussion.. lets figure out if this could be the gun cam film..

Using both ACIG..and other sources...including word of mouth.
two kills I can confirm as true.
The first would be 14th dec.. by Flt lt Aamir sharif flying a F-6.
The second would be on 17th dec greenhorn Flt lt Maqsood's kill flying a Sabre Mk.6

both on the western front..

Jagan Mohan lists 8 mig-21's lost in 71.
So with the above two.. that leaves 6.. for being lost to AAA and/or operational accidents.
So.. NO other Mig-21 was lost to A2A.
Now.. I recall seeing a gun camera shot very similar to the one linked to by WJ in post #197 in the PAF official history of a Mig-21..published in 1988...under the account of Flt lt Amir...
And I am assuming the PAF isnt that callous to publish false pictures.
Which leaves the possibility of the gun cam film of Flt lt Aamer Sharif...
However..this also establishes..that any further claims regarding IAF mig-21's shot down in A2A combat be treated with skepticism.

Thank you for that, indeed two MIG-21 were shot down in air to air combat in the Western sector and I have posted gun camera shots of both kills. the images I posted in Post#176 is of the subject of this thread. This is MIG-21 No No C 116 , that was shot down by Flt Lt. Maqsood Amir on 17th December 1971 during the last aerial battle of the war. If any one has any objections, they should make an effort to prove it wrong rather than merely running in circles of denial. Period.

 

[SQ8]

As I have said in a previous post, it may be very well the photo of an IAF Mig21 shot down on Dec 17th. Its just that there is no evidence as such. Till then, I would hesitate.

Plus, if this is from Flt.Lt.Amir, it would prove that this photo does not belong in this thread at all.After all, we are talking about the last day of the war.

About Amir Sharif, I googled him and oddly, there isn't a lot of info about him except for this very forum in the following post:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/40522-flash-back-air-war-1971-a.html#post569896

Truthfully, the IAF plane does not look like it got shot down Also the IAF does not show any A to A shootdown of a Mig 21 on Dec 14th.

Till somebody comes up with a scan of that page from PAF's official history.. I cant back it up either..

from Jagan mohan's data.
2 Mig-21's were lost in the east.. 6 in the west.. of which 2 are operational accidents.. that leaves 4 Mig-21's.. 1 is confirmed A2A..
leaves 3.. if Amir shariff's kill is taken.. that is 2 Mig-21's lost to AAA.