Last Air Battle On This Day

[Areesh]

Firstly Areesh:
Please do point out what I am missing.
What's left?

Obviously I will...

About the operational status of the F104, well, firstly that's not even the post subject, and secondly did you want me to copy paste the entire article since you could not be bothered to click on the link? Did you at least try the links before dismissing them?

You also knew which question you avoided so you made pathetic effort to answer them by providing two random links by searching on Google. Sorry buddy no need to provide us two random links since they don't prove anything. If it was about just operational history of F-104 then we could have easily searched it ourselves. We also know how to search on Google.

The WJ question was:

why the MIG-21 is still in front line service around the world while the F-104, has called it a day. ??

The answer isn't that difficult to answer. More specifically why PAF is operating the said copy of Mig 21(F-7) in year 2011 when it already phased out all F-104's in late 1972.

So answer WJ's query which you are trying to avoid. We also know how to search for links on Google.

What questions have I asked on this thread? Show me this too.

Should I when you were the one who was making demands for scan pages of ACM Lal's book. Doesn't it shows that it was a fail pathetic attempt from you to appear as a so called winner in discussion with WJ.

 

[lapinschous1]

The latest real dogfight... I guess during the Kosovo war, something like a F-15 vs a bosniac mig.... :?

 

[Windjammer]

Wrong sir..but these are your views so i have no problems there....As far as i ma concerned there are many reasons to leave a conflict....if the collateral is not worth the results one withdraw that does not mean the other party loose...However if i want to argue the other way i can say a party loose if they failed to achieve their objective...Anyhow guerrilla warfare debate is very subjective because the definition of victory is not clear....Having said that it is not relevant to our discussion because neither India resorted to it and nor Pakistan..... So once again my claim is that it is very hard to loose a battle if you have Air Dominance.....For the context of our discussion can you think of an example excluding guerrilla warfare???

Selective in your choice of wars, aren't you dear. ??
Let me remind you, when something like an F-16 drops bombs into a built up area, the argument for collateral damage goes out of the window and least of all, the Israelis give two monkeys when it comes to killing innocent civilians. One of the main reasons for their forced withdraw was the vulnerability of their Armour since, over two dozen of their otherwise impregnable tanks were taken out by new anti-tank missiles acquired by the opposition.

 

[John Doe]

@ both Windjammer and his pen pal+close friend Areesh :

Firstly Areesh,

"We also know how to search for links on Google"

Not too sure on that, since you seem to be even unable to click on links. This ailment seems to have affected the both of you. I am trying to avoid copy pasting all data and instead offer links so as to save space on this forum. I'll make an exception considering your 'Nonclickitis' disease and paste the answer to your F 104 question here, knowing fully that this is not the topic of the original post. Yet I will try to share the wisdom imparted to me by my uncle, Gary Gilbert Google:

"The Starfighter had a generally short-lived and undistinguished career......... its high accident rate, with 49 lost up to 1961. Partly the problem was the type's unprecedented high performance........it was a demanding aircraft and not friendly"

What else did Areesh think of? Here it is!
"you were the one who was making demands for scan pages "
Are you sure? Or was it I who was mocking the inclusion of scanned pages? When I mentioned Lal it was to successfully prove that WJ was just name-dropping, that too patronizingly, and even worse dishonestly. If he had even seen this book in his library(as he claims), don't you think by now, he would have hot footed there, borrowed a scanner and scanned the 1st page?

Lets look at the big picture:
the only factual problems you find with my posts is the I could not justify the phasing out of the Starfighters. Ok, the answers are in the links already posted. Ask someone to help you with the mouse device.
But lets say that I have no idea why the F104 is phased out, what does it change? Was Dec 17 a good day for the IAF's air war? Yes. What have I been writing about so far? Exactly that.

PS. I'll reply to WJ in a separate post.

 

[John Doe]

@WindJ


If one good thing has come out this ‘meeting of minds’, its this: You have completely copied my style of writing in every post Down to the movie quotes!
Dats cool, bro. I ain’t mad at cha! Hate da game, not the playa. Keep working at the spelling and grammer, though. Avoid the completely incorrectly quoted Shakespeare lines, too easily spotted by the enemy(anyone on this forum over 16).

Back to 1971. It was a cold and scary Dec 17 day. Just like any other Dec 17 in Pakistan/Nothern India. Brave air warriors flew their steeds. Guns blazed, missiles zoomed, seats ejected! Some shot, some got shot down. Heroes, all!
Cut to Dec 2010. Keyboard warriors crossed their cyber weapons. Links were posted, but remained unclicked. Salacious offers followed by vicious allegations were made, threats too from 1 particular warrior and his wingman. Sadly, truth was the first to be ejected(again on just 1 side) . Even sacrifices of heroes like Changezi were twisted to suit false posts! Doubts were raised on the suitability of other heroes like Tufail (admired by both sides for being a gentleman and a warrior) to narrate history, by people who were then just a gleam in their fathers’ eyes.
Phew, writing a thriller is not easy! I’ll pick up this storyline later.

Ok, about the names of the IAF pilots I posted who shot the F 104’s down. Why is it not enough? What more do you need, their resumes perhaps? To answer any IAF shootdown questions you may have please look at this excellent list posted by your fellow countryman”MADDOG” in #21 of this very discussion: Air Aces Homepage


Your opponents (aforementioned people above the age of 16) do NOT think that you made any inroads with Deckingraj, et al. In fact, you owe them an apology in certain areas in light of Tufail’s blog.
All my non-war related text that you have quoted is just wry humor and well deserved. On the other hand, offering to post certain type of video footage, perhaps without the consent of the other party, is IMMORAL and most likely ILLEGAL. Check with the Admins of this forum right now.
I can say so much more, but I’ll wait for another round of the Grade A, Extra Large, Family Pack size stuff that I mentioned in my earlier post.

 

[deckingraj]

Selective in your choice of wars, aren't you dear. ??
Let me remind you, when something like an F-16 drops bombs into a built up area, the argument for collateral damage goes out of the window and least of all, the Israelis give two monkeys when it comes to killing innocent civilians. One of the main reasons for their forced withdraw was the vulnerability of their Armour since, over two dozen of their otherwise impregnable tanks were taken out by new anti-tank missiles acquired by the opposition.

Look no matter how evil the enemy is collateral is one thing that you want to avoid....Now let's not loose the focus here....You know why you have written all these posts in response to me and yet fail to give a single example where one Force lost even after controlling the sky because there are no such examples on modern history..period....

Air war is very very important aspect of the war and we all know why....Don't mix the guerilla tactics here because it is not in synch with the context of our discussion.....this is not being selective, this is being logical.....

 

[Windjammer]

@WindJ


If one good thing has come out this ‘meeting of minds’, its this: You have completely copied my style of writing in every post Down to the movie quotes!

As i have said, you are really in love with your self, however since the reflection seems hard for you to digest, i concede, no one can match you for being the slimy .

Dats cool, bro. I ain’t mad at cha! Hate da game, not the playa. Keep working at the spelling and grammer, though. Avoid the completely incorrectly quoted Shakespeare lines, too easily spotted by the enemy(anyone on this forum over 16).

Sure seems strong stuff you smoke. Desi with an attitude imitating some Rasta, you do need some help laddie.

Back to 1971. It was a cold and scary Dec 17 day. Just like any other Dec 17 in Pakistan/Nothern India. Brave air warriors flew their steeds. Guns blazed, missiles zoomed, seats ejected! Some shot, some got shot down. Heroes, all!

Where as some bewildered armchair general through cheap banter, wanted to prove, his heroes were better than mine

Cut to Dec 2010. Keyboard warriors crossed their cyber weapons. Links were posted, but remained unclicked. Salacious offers followed by vicious allegations were made, threats too from 1 particular warrior and his wingman. Sadly, truth was the first to be ejected(again on just 1 side) . Even sacrifices of heroes like Changezi were twisted to suit false posts! Doubts were raised on the suitability of other heroes like Tufail (admired by both sides for being a gentleman and a warrior) to narrate history, by people who were then just a gleam in their fathers’ eyes.
Phew, writing a thriller is not easy! I’ll pick up this storyline later.

Dear Lord, how shall I answer this chancer desperate for the corporate ladder ?..... come to think of it, it's very simple, we in the land of real heroes, celebrate 7th September as The Air Force Day, when the Nation pays tribute to it's Flying and Fallen, we don't need any acknowledgement for their sincerity or sacrifice.

Ok, about the names of the IAF pilots I posted who shot the F 104’s down. Why is it not enough? What more do you need, their resumes perhaps? To answer any IAF shootdown questions you may have please look at this excellent list posted by your fellow countryman”MADDOG” in #21 of this very discussion: Air Aces Homepage

Wipe it off, you are dribbling buddy, prove your own worth.

Your opponents (aforementioned people above the age of 16) do NOT think that you made any inroads with Deckingraj, et al. In fact, you owe them an apology in certain areas in light of Tufail’s blog.

Oh Aye The Noe Jimmy, Since you have adopted the role of a Pimp, i guess the call center is out of question.

All my non-war related text that you have quoted is just wry humor and well deserved. On the other hand, offering to post certain type of video footage, perhaps without the consent of the other party, is IMMORAL and most likely ILLEGAL. Check with the Admins of this forum right now.
I can say so much more, but I’ll wait for another round of the Grade A, Extra Large, Family Pack size stuff that I mentioned in my earlier post.

Since you are still wagging your licker in anticipation, I guess old habits die hard, hey dirty Doe, as for the rest, i can't recall last time i wiped my nose.

 

[Windjammer]

Look no matter how evil the enemy is collateral is one thing that you want to avoid....Now let's not loose the focus here....You know why you have written all these posts in response to me and yet fail to give a single example where one Force lost even after controlling the sky because there are no such examples on modern history..period....

As i have said you are selective in the modern air war fare. !!!

Air war is very very important aspect of the war and we all know why....Don't mix the guerilla tactics here because it is not in synch with the context of our discussion.....this is not being selective, this is being logical.....

The examples i have posted were much more justified than your query, America, Russia and Israel were much better equipped and powerful in every possible scenario, than their let's say, opponents, where as Pakistan in men, machine and mechanics, was at a sever disadvantage in every possible field, yet, it's immoral of any individual to subscribe to a chest thumping victory without any focus on the statistics. Do you really find any comfort or moral in that. ???

 

[DeathGod]

chest thumping victory without any focus on the statistics.

Do you really find any comfort or moral in that.???

Have the same question for you. I dont understand how can you claim to be a GROWN-UP but still act like a child.

Comparing a 10 year Gurreila war with a 14-day out and out conflict is not only bizzare... its foolish. Atleast compare an orange with an orange...

People have asked you answers to some of the very apt questions time and again and all you have been practicing here is deflection. Wonder how you survive with such an attitude at your workplace or maybe such attitude is only reserved for internet havens such at PDF.

I have read enough of your threads to know exactly what kind of stuff you are fond of posting...

Do you really find comfort in being immoral and recognizing the truth?
Is it 71 or your hatred of India embedded so deep that you will go to any lengths to just get a upper hand(even if its based on your illogical arguments)?

In one of your replies you mentioned that JD wanted to prove his heroes are better than yours.You replies this without even reading that he considered that pilots on both sides were heroes.And well heroes are just heroes.. there is nothing like better heroes...

You borge ahead and say that you live in a land of REAL heroes... Cant think of a more crappier sentence on this forum by a GROWN-UP...

Dont even want to decimate your past posts/claims/whatever and btw I dint any AF buff who has read books like you or JD, just an ordinary guy trying to understand the logic behind the posts and claims.... wont waste my time anymore on this thread....

 

[Windjammer]

Have the same question for you. I dont understand how can you claim to be a GROWN-UP but still act like a child.

Yes welcome back DG, kindly stick to the subject rather than a stick measuring contest.

Comparing a 10 year Gurreila war with a 14-day out and out conflict is not only bizzare... its foolish. Atleast compare an orange with an orange...

Any one with some knowledge of warfare wouldn't possibly bundle all the examples i quoted into the realms of Guerrilla war tactics, at least have the moral of calling a spade a spade'

People have asked you answers to some of the very apt questions time and again and all you have been practicing here is deflection. Wonder how you survive with such an attitude at your workplace or maybe such attitude is only reserved for internet havens such at PDF.

Would you believe me if i told you, i have extended my business interests within last six months, hence my work place is quite content, as for the cheap banter, can you answer the riddle, how many Indian members it takes to ask the same question.
These ploy tactics are well tried and tested.

I have read enough of your threads to know exactly what kind of stuff you are fond of posting...

Always knew i had a dedicated following.

Do you really find comfort in being immoral and recognizing the truth?
Is it 71 or your hatred of India embedded so deep that you will go to any lengths to just get a upper hand(even if its based on your illogical arguments)?

Every one with vision has a right to their opinion, after all you also keep returning to salvage some pride.

In one of your replies you mentioned that JD wanted to prove his heroes are better than yours.You replies this without even reading that he considered that pilots on both sides were heroes.And well heroes are just heroes.. there is nothing like better heroes...

Seems you are all but blinded by your loyalties, his very first post was circumstantial and contradicts your claim.

You borge ahead and say that you live in a land of REAL heroes... Cant think of a more crappier sentence on this forum by a GROWN-UP...

Since Growing up is your favorite past time, hence read and comprehend like a grown up before posting, since I never wrote to the effect of Living in the land of heroes One then wonders, where all the crap is actually oozing from .

Dont even want to decimate your past posts/claims/whatever and btw I dint any AF buff who has read books like you or JD, just an ordinary guy trying to understand the logic behind the posts and claims.... wont waste my time anymore on this thread....

Albeit i have read the last line somewhere before, however let me remind you and others that in a Guerrilla War, the adversary never needs to deploys it's carrier groups or conduct carpet bombing raids and has it's front line aircraft constantly blown out of the sky, and the so called Guerrillas seldom take off in their MIGs to challenge the aggressor.

 

[deckingraj]

As i have said you are selective in the modern air war fare. !!!

Goodness gracious...not sure why are you acting like this???? Selective my foot! ... Guerilla warfare is very different from the orthodox ways of old times...where two armies face each other eye to eye and fights...The definition of victory, the rules of engagement everything is very very different.....

For example what would you call PA effort against TTP...Is it a victory, a defeat or fight is still going on....They have cleared most of the areas so in that way it is a clear victory.....They are in control there but wait a minute can we call it a victory??? Millitants still strike at will, so does that mean PA has lost, no...does that mean Operations are still going on..Perhaps...But then what would the definition of clear victory???? These are the dilemna of modern warfare(urban warfare to be precise)....

Now our conventional war that we fought did not have these dilemna....It is actually very hard to loose a battle if you control the skies....We both know this but don't want to acknowledge....One has to be sheer stupid to loose a war with control of skies....I know Pak fought it pretty hard so let's not fool ourselves here.....There are many battles which can make people on both sides sheer proud so there is no need to come up with phantom things.....

The examples i have posted were much more justified than your query,

This is plain wrong....the example you are giving is about modern warfare where guerilla tactics rules...As said they have completely changed the definition of victory and rules of engagement....This is no way justified in the context of our discussion...If yes then show me how....I am giving you reasons why it is not...try and counter them for a change rather then repeating the same rhetoric....

America, Russia and Israel were much better equipped and powerful in every possible scenario, than their let's say, opponents, where as Pakistan in men, machine and mechanics, was at a sever disadvantage in every possible field, yet, it's immoral of any individual to subscribe to a chest thumping victory without any focus on the statistics. Do you really find any comfort or moral in that. ???

Severe disadvantage in every possible field??? What a BS....If the parity was this huge as you mentioned then any reason 65 war occur???? Were your generals that dumb???? Look every war has certain objectives and is fought on certain terms with lot of calculations.....Defense of east lies in west was not our slogan. Your establishment was very much confident that India can at max achieve a stalemate before International community will step in...This was the reason you guys attacked our Air-Fields in Dec giving us a perfect excuse to start the onslaught...We stopped your advances in West and give you hard time in the east...We would not have achieved all our objectives had PAF enjoyed the Air dominance...If you wanna say that both Air forces did good i can easily accept that....but saying PAF beat the sh!t out of IAF is completely wrong and just a mere chest thumping exercise because result of the war on all fronts do not support the audacious claim...PAF did good because even after numerically inferior they gave IAF a tough fight...IAF did good because they were able to give full support to the ground operations and make life very difficult for PAF to support their troops....Longewal, Karachi Bombings are very glaring examples for one to circumspect...This can't be done when one country is enjoying air-dominance

 

[SQ8]

..... What a BS....If the parity was this huge as you mentioned then any reason 65 war occur???? Were your generals that dumb???? ...

Actually they were...
Going into a conflict without thinking of the consequences.. on unconfirmed intel..and ill prepared.. and not planning for any contingency.
Our generals have been very very egoistic..and dumb...
they did it in 65.. and repeated in 99..

As far as the air war was concerned.. the performance of the IAF.. in 65.. considering what it could have achieved with the recourses at its disposal..was dismal..

The PAF too.. did not perform as planned.. dithering and doubts ruining the effect the well thought out plans were to have.

in 71.. the IAF bounced back.. with the lessons of 65 fresh in their heads.
Whereas in 65 the IAF would regularly miss targets by a mile or so..
in 71 they were spot on..
in 65 the IAF was reluctant to press home attacks.. in 71 they went beyond the call to make sure the job was done.

To get the most accurate account of events.. I suggest Acdre kaiser Tufail's blog.. he is extremely accurate..and does not give an inch of ground on the events till he has verified all accounts.
His tally ...and reports of operations.. are the best you will get on the PAF side.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Actually they were...
Going into a conflict without thinking of the consequences.. on unconfirmed intel..and ill prepared.. and not planning for any contingency.
Our generals have been very very egoistic..and dumb...
they did it in 65.. and repeated in 99..

As far as the air war was concerned.. the performance of the IAF.. in 65.. considering what it could have achieved with the recourses at its disposal..was dismal..

The PAF too.. did not perform as planned.. dithering and doubts ruining the effect the well thought out plans were to have.

in 71.. the IAF bounced back.. with the lessons of 65 fresh in their heads.
Whereas in 65 the IAF would regularly miss targets by a mile or so..
in 71 they were spot on..
in 65 the IAF was reluctant to press home attacks.. in 71 they went beyond the call to make sure the job was done.

To get the most accurate account of events.. I suggest Acdre kaiser Tufail's blog.. he is extremely accurate..and does not give an inch of ground on the events till he has verified all accounts.
His tally ...and reports of operations.. are the best you will get on the PAF side.

Ah. Finally a sober, logical and reasoned input after a while on a thread that was getting jammed in to some windy tales. And devoid of jingoistic exertions. Thanks, Santro.

i take Air Cdre. Kaiser Tufail seriously and give his accounts the credence that he has well earned. For instance he is one of the few persons (may be the only one) who has talked about the PAF-PA "joint-operations" during the Kargil adventure.

 

[blackops]

DATE KILLING AIRCRAFT VICTEM
4 September 1965[13] PAF F-86E ? IAF MiG-21F-13
4 December 1971[1] IAF MiG-21FL PAF Sabre F.6
6 December 1971[13] IAF MiG-21FL PAF F-6
6 December 1971[13] IAF MiG-21FL ? PAF CC-130
11 December 1971[1] IAF MiG-21FL ? IAF MiG-21FL "C1107"
12 December 1971[1] IAF MiG-21FL PAF F-104A
12 December 1971[1] IAF MiG-21FL PAF F-104A
12 December 1971[1] IAF MiG-21FL PAF F-104A
14 December 1971[13] PAF F-6 IAF MiG-21FL
16 December 1971[1] IAF MiG-21FL PAF F-6
17 December 1971[1] PAF F-86F IAF MiG-21FL "C716"
17 December 1971[13] IAF MiG-21FL PAF F-104A
17 December 1971[13] IAF MiG-21FL PAF F-104A


THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A PAF PILOT MESSES UP WITH A IAF MIG 21 PILOT LOOK AT THE RECORDS OF 1971

 

[John Doe]

To get the most accurate account of events.. I suggest Acdre kaiser Tufail's blog.. he is extremely accurate..and does not give an inch of ground on the events till he has verified all accounts.
His tally ...and reports of operations.. are the best you will get on the PAF side.

While I completely agree with your assessment about the '65 war plan as well as the caliber of Kaiser Tufail's writing and his suitability to narrate history, I'm afraid our sentiments are not shared by the originator of this post, self proclaimed expert in all matters PAF, our very own Windjammer. See for yourself:

: elsewhere on this forum, a thread has appeared, where members are pointing out discrepancies in Tufail's bloggs, hence the source of RJAF F-104 is proving controversial, suffice to say, that's bad luck for you.

So now a PAF hero who spent his entire life in the service of his country is now less qualified to be a historian than our own keyboard hero?