Last Air Battle On This Day

[John Doe]

11 December 1971[1] IAF MiG-21FL ? IAF MiG-21FL "C1107"

Excellent detail, I suggest attributing the source and further crosschecking these details with other sources.

Also did you notice this one? It was a self goal:-(

 

[blackops]

Excellent detail, I suggest attributing the source and further crosschecking these details with other sources.

Also did you notice this one? It was a self goal:-(

SOURCE WIKIPEDIA MIG 21 INDIA SECTION

this incident took place due to missile miss fire and it was sad

 

[John Doe]

his(John Doe) very first post was circumstantial and contradicts your claim(of 'he considered that pilots on both sides were heroes').

Have you even read my 1st post? Have I even indicated that any pilot was anything less than a hero in any post? Please show me where I have said that! DO NOT come up with theories how my words could be 'interpreted' in a certain manner! These theories should be caged within the vastness of your 'intellect'. Just show me where I have demeaned any PAF pilot!!
IF YOU DONT REPLY WITH THIS OR TAKE YOUR WORDS BACK, I AM TAKING YOUR PATHETIC PRIOR OFFER TO POST CERTAIN VIDEO FOOTAGE TO THE WEBMASTER AND THEN YOU CAN FACE THE CONSEQUENCES! No more 'mister nice guy' from me.

Since Growing up is your favorite past time, hence read and comprehend like a grown up before posting, since I never wrote to the effect of Living in the land of heroes One then wonders, where all the crap is actually oozing from .

You are seriously a troubled young man-child! Pray, who typed this ?

we in the land of real heroes, celebrate 7th September as The Air Force Day

The more I think that you have reached the depth of your ignorance, you turn around and surprise me with further foolishness.

Its seems half of all your posts are denying the very things that YOU type the previous day! Seriously, what is the problem? You have the same ailment that Aamir Khan had in Ghajini-"short term amnesia"? Now don't go Taliban on us and scream that I don't watch movies, please!

 

[SQ8]

While I completely agree with your assessment about the '65 war plan as well as the caliber of Kaiser Tufail's writing and his suitability to narrate history, I'm afraid our sentiments are not shared by the originator of this post, self proclaimed expert in all matters PAF, our very own Windjammer. See for yourself:



So now a PAF hero who spent his entire life in the service of his country is now less qualified to be a historian than our own keyboard hero?

Windjammer is of his own opinions.. and i respect him for that..
I state what I felt..
Also.. the account of the 71 war given by Indian historians is exaggerated as well..
by all means they performed well.. but kills have been made out of thin air..
for eg.. many of the kills cited in the post before you.. infact never happened.. many damaged jets are counted as kills.
The same can be said of the PAF historians as well.. however.. by far and large.. the PAF history on 71 is fairly correct as far as operations..and their effectiveness is concerned... a far cry from 65.. in which kills and medals were awarded without care..and actual heroes ignored for made up stories.

P.s..
the self goal by the Mig-21 was a night interception mission gone wrong..
the wingman shot down his own leader whilst attempting to shoot down mirages on a recce mission...and this was all dramatically heard by PAF ops officers on the ELINT radio..

 

[Windjammer]

Have you even read my 1st post? Have I even indicated that any pilot was anything less than a hero in any post? Please show me where I have said that! DO NOT come up with theories how my words could be 'interpreted' in a certain manner! These theories should be caged within the vastness of your 'intellect'. Just show me where I have demeaned any PAF pilot!!
IF YOU DONT REPLY WITH THIS OR TAKE YOUR WORDS BACK, I AM TAKING YOUR PATHETIC PRIOR OFFER TO POST CERTAIN VIDEO FOOTAGE TO THE WEBMASTER AND THEN YOU CAN FACE THE CONSEQUENCES! No more 'mister nice guy' from me.

A whack on your grey matter would never suffice to knock sense into your upper crust, the title reads, "Last air battle on this day", but hey, our week end warrior, John Doe, had to regurgitate as to what he may have eaten for breakfast on that day, and then boasting he had two servings of the same. As for the high profile ultimatum or shall we call it a threat, you even made me chuckle, when reporting me to the respectable MOD, and in the same breath claiming that you have taken care of me elsewhere.??? Isn't that something like saying, "I have sold my car to Windjammer, but he's not buying it of me. !!!

You are seriously a troubled young man-child! Pray, who typed this ?

Proof if it were needed, how to differentiate men from boys. Since you are unable to comprehend, i suggest you ask any Twelve year old as to the difference between," in the land of real heroes", and "Living in the land of heroes"

The more I think that you have reached the depth of your ignorance, you turn around and surprise me with further foolishness.

What, in the same context as how you shamelessly thanked "Death God's" posts, without commenting/criticizing his version of dialect as your receding mentality was focused on mine.

Its seems half of all your posts are denying the very things that YOU type the previous day! Seriously, what is the problem? You have the same ailment that Aamir Khan had in Ghajini-"short term amnesia"? Now don't go Taliban on us and scream that I don't watch movies, please!

The problem is you, who is like me, .. a Desi, but, imitating every Tom, Dick and Harry, trying hard to play cool as some Reggae Rastafarian, oblivious to the trials of life, declines/digresses even further by seeking shelter in some Bollywood Bamboozle,.... Give it a rest. !!!!
As for Kaiser Tufail, some of discrepancies in his disclosure(s) are pointed out by others than me, however his articles, "Top Guns Zapped" and "The Cheapest Kill" may not go down well your wind tunnel . Albeit, I have posted these elsewhere, but I'll save you the trouble of searching. Read it to your heart's content as to what the PAF is made of.

And i have yet to see an image of a PAF F-104 (9 to be exact going by Indian Claims) going down in flames as this Creme De La Creme.

Well Folks, Festive season is done and dusted, we are well into the new year, for the time being, snows have given way to the rain and life to some extent has turned to a normality. That slice of Bread , the Veg Thali or the puffed Chapati is demanding some clock hours. Damn, better see how Sunita is handling those Balls..... Tennis any one.

 

[deckingraj]

Actually they were...

Well in that aspects our General's also did not disappoint their Pakistani counterparts...Anyways comical errors from both sides apart the point i was trying to deliver was that PA had enough fire power to keep India at bay...yes there was disparity but situation was not as hopeless as some Pakistani members project...Pakistan was getting lot of help from US back then whereas our relations with USSR were not that rosy....Pak relations with China further improved after 62 war as well...So in short the situation was not hopeless....Having said that pak fought a good war and the world was impressed with their performance viz-a-viz mighty Indians....

Going into a conflict without thinking of the consequences.. on unconfirmed intel..and ill prepared.. and not planning for any contingency.Our generals have been very very egoistic..and dumb...
they did it in 65.. and repeated in 99..

Have explained above what i meant by dumb part...But sir with all due respect the only thing that your generals miscalculated was geo-politics and yes they underestimated India....Otherwise the plans they pulled out were exceptionally awesome...

As far as the air war was concerned.. the performance of the IAF.. in 65.. considering what it could have achieved with the recourses at its disposal..was dismal..

I would say it was pathetic....We were on the defensive right from the word go...Air-raids by PAF had big phycological impact on IAF and there should be no doubts about it...This is the reason we improved considerably in 71...

The PAF too.. did not perform as planned.. dithering and doubts ruining the effect the well thought out plans were to have.

in 71.. the IAF bounced back.. with the lessons of 65 fresh in their heads.
Whereas in 65 the IAF would regularly miss targets by a mile or so..
in 71 they were spot on..
in 65 the IAF was reluctant to press home attacks.. in 71 they went beyond the call to make sure the job was done.

To get the most accurate account of events.. I suggest Acdre kaiser Tufail's blog.. he is extremely accurate..and does not give an inch of ground on the events till he has verified all accounts.
His tally ...and reports of operations.. are the best you will get on the PAF side.

Thanks for saying that...There are not many out there who would like to call spade a spade....Anyhow i don't believe in numbers...At the end of the day if you get the job done you are the winner...

 

[Joe Shearer]

Windjammer is of his own opinions.. and i respect him for that..
I state what I felt..
Also.. the account of the 71 war given by Indian historians is exaggerated as well..
by all means they performed well.. but kills have been made out of thin air..
for eg.. many of the kills cited in the post before you.. infact never happened.. many damaged jets are counted as kills.
The same can be said of the PAF historians as well.. however.. by far and large.. the PAF history on 71 is fairly correct as far as operations..and their effectiveness is concerned... a far cry from 65.. in which kills and medals were awarded without care..and actual heroes ignored for made up stories.

P.s..
the self goal by the Mig-21 was a night interception mission gone wrong..
the wingman shot down his own leader whilst attempting to shoot down mirages on a recce mission...and this was all dramatically heard by PAF ops officers on the ELINT radio..

I really appreciated the last two or three posts you made on this beaten-to-death topic and the breath of fresh air you brought in. Regarding official histories, I tend to take those of both sides with large handfuls of salt. Personal histories and memoirs, on the other hand, seem to belong to a different class of integrity: a sad comment on the standards of military historians on the sub-continent.

Again, on topics concerning Pakistan-India encounters, I prefer using Pakistani accounts, as that tends to put things beyond debate.

On military history, while I know he is not well-liked, I instinctively look to see what Major Amin says about a subject; otherwise, I have been a fan of Brigadier Z. A. Khan's ever since I read his absorbing memoirs. For the life of me, I cannot figure out how he achieves that dry, acerbic, almost withering style, which would have been cynical if the underlying emotion and commitment had not flashed out from time to time and am surprised that not many have commented on it. On matters relating to the air, after reading Tufail, what more is needed? Just for the record, when P. C. Lal came into civvy street, he was my boss for a while, and when his book came out, naturally it became a must-read. I've never quoted him, though, as in these circles, anything an Indian writes, howsoever senior and respected he might be, tends to be looked at with contempt and derision by the fan-boys and flamers who crawl about in abundance.

You were kind to Windjammer. I respect your views. As far as I am concerned, some of our Indian fan-boys are pretty strong stuff; it takes a lot of endurance and a very strong stomach to read them. Leave alone tolerating them; I don't, and tend to hit them on the head whenever we cross paths. But this chap was out of bounds, more than once. I have seldom read posts so misleading in cotent, designed to misinform, full of subterfuge when cornered, churlish, and, in that unforgiveable sexual allusion, so gross.

As far as the overall assessment I personally have of the air combat encounters between the two air forces goes, the PAF fought over its weight in every encounter. It clearly took the honours in 65, mysterious allusions to a pact that was found not to be a pact notwithstanding. By 71, clearly, the IAF had learnt its lessons and was in far better shape, and in spite of the rare courage and elan with which the outnumbered PAF pilots fought, numbers told the tale.

If there is a salutary lesson out of these encounters, it is that neither air force has really committed itself to supporting the army, with close air support. Whatever happened was desultory and intermittent, and with rare exceptions, one of which sure to be brought up by an Indian observer, rarely affected an ongoing battle. Kargil was the last straw on the camel's back, but it just points to the lack of concern and lack of integration among two services, in identical manner across national boundaries. The history of air-force and navy collaboration is even more colourless and uninspiring - on both sides.

I suspect that there has been further introspection since then, this time on the side of the PAF. Some of its command and control initiatives are impressive, to the point of causing concern to an Indian observer. I suspect that their doctrine has evolved, and that unless they are opposed, not with shiny new technology but with a counter-posed doctrine with the opponents' strengths clearly in mind, they may put up another brilliant display of pilot panache backed by excellent battle management.

 

[SQ8]

@raj...
A little incorrect on the support to the Pakistani's by the Americans.. by 65 the Americans had embargoed us on spare parts and supplies.. and while we had plenty available at the start..had the fight dragged on.. we would have had unserviceable jets.
The relations with the Chinese picked up after 66.. not 62.. Ayub was still hoping for a grand alliance against the red menace with India..especially after 62....you have to give credit to him for doing everything he could to appease the Americans.. bending over, down .. left right.. all of it.
It was Bhutto who knew China was our future...

in 65.. its our men..infact.. it has always been our men who fought when there seemed no hope.. when the IA attacked near sialkot.. our general had not even deployed his troops properly.. if not for a few brave men.. all of whom died in the line of duty.. a WHOLE unit.. defending that area.. history would have been different.
The raid on Halwara was suicide.. yet one of our best went ahead with it anyway.. and a relatively experienced pilot was bought down by a rookie over enemy territory..

in 71.. the longewala attack.. the PAF had made it CLEAR to the general that it had NO capability to offer CAS or CAPs in that area.. yet the ill fated offensive was launched.. and lion fed to the grinder by our lamb like leaders. without air cover.. our troops were going to be easy meat even to force of sopwith camels.

What leader can excuse himself for leading his men into certain defeat.. apart from his ego..


The 71 war saw better performance by the PAF as well.. as compared to the 65 war.. contrary to popular belief.. the PAF actually did really bad in 65.. if they had carried out the war plan to the letter P.. the InAF in that state would be ineffective within three days... and the result would have been celebrated like the IAF victory in 67... alas.. hesitation.. dithering.. and neglect made the PAF drag relative defeat from the jaws of complete victory.
in 71.. not only was the PAF much more effective.. if provided better support than in 65.. and its performance.. considering that the whole war plan of 71 revolved around Tikka Khan's counter attack.. was very good.
The PAF was conserving its strength for the counter offensive.. where it had calculated a loss of over a 100 aircraft...the much touted offensive was never launched thanks to cold feet on part of our generals... but it put a bad taste in the populations mouth about the PAF whom they considered ineffective or a no show.. not realizing the doctrine behind it.

In the east.. the PAF lasted beyond what was expected.. even though the OC flying there got two of his men killed needlessly..and then presented stories of ghost fights.. and was even awarded a medal for it.

In the south.. the PAF base at mauripur can be considered the single element that prevented the cutoff of Pakistan's south from its north by an Indian advance...

My grandfather.. who was in charge of navigation planning in 65 for Dwarka.. and in 71 was commanding a squadron of ships tells of how when the fuel tanks of manora harbour were aflame.. our Naval chief was drunk beyond his senses and kept remarking to his son about the burning oil tanks.."WHAT a lovely bonfire"...
Never doubt the men who fight.. its those that lead them.. that need to be taken into account.

There were three or four confirmed 104's shot down in 71..
two in air to air..and one by AAA.. the fourth I am still not sure of.
Both A2A encounters were in the southern sector.. one is available on AC tufails site..the other involved the famous mervyn middlecoat...who seems to have made the mistake of trying to outfly a mig-21 instead of trying to outrun it or outclimb it.. (for his defense.. he may have been low on fuel since he was at the end of his patrol and heading back over the coast near the Kutch).

 

[blackops]

@raj...
A little incorrect on the support to the Pakistani's by the Americans.. by 65 the Americans had embargoed us on spare parts and supplies.. and while we had plenty available at the start..had the fight dragged on.. we would have had unserviceable jets.
The relations with the Chinese picked up after 66.. not 62.. Ayub was still hoping for a grand alliance against the red menace with India..especially after 62....you have to give credit to him for doing everything he could to appease the Americans.. bending over, down .. left right.. all of it.
It was Bhutto who knew China was our future...

in 65.. its our men..infact.. it has always been our men who fought when there seemed no hope.. when the IA attacked near sialkot.. our general had not even deployed his troops properly.. if not for a few brave men.. all of whom died in the line of duty.. a WHOLE unit.. defending that area.. history would have been different.
The raid on Halwara was suicide.. yet one of our best went ahead with it anyway.. and a relatively experienced pilot was bought down by a rookie over enemy territory..

in 71.. the longewala attack.. the PAF had made it CLEAR to the general that it had NO capability to offer CAS or CAPs in that area.. yet the ill fated offensive was launched.. and lion fed to the grinder by our lamb like leaders. without air cover.. our troops were going to be easy meat even to force of sopwith camels.

What leader can excuse himself for leading his men into certain defeat.. apart from his ego..


The 71 war saw better performance by the PAF as well.. as compared to the 65 war.. contrary to popular belief.. the PAF actually did really bad in 65.. if they had carried out the war plan to the letter P.. the InAF in that state would be ineffective within three days... and the result would have been celebrated like the IAF victory in 67... alas.. hesitation.. dithering.. and neglect made the PAF drag relative defeat from the jaws of complete victory.
in 71.. not only was the PAF much more effective.. if provided better support than in 65.. and its performance.. considering that the whole war plan of 71 revolved around Tikka Khan's counter attack.. was very good.
The PAF was conserving its strength for the counter offensive.. where it had calculated a loss of over a 100 aircraft...the much touted offensive was never launched thanks to cold feet on part of our generals... but it put a bad taste in the populations mouth about the PAF whom they considered ineffective or a no show.. not realizing the doctrine behind it.

In the east.. the PAF lasted beyond what was expected.. even though the OC flying there got two of his men killed needlessly..and then presented stories of ghost fights.. and was even awarded a medal for it.

In the south.. the PAF base at mauripur can be considered the single element that prevented the cutoff of Pakistan's south from its north by an Indian advance...

My grandfather.. who was in charge of navigation planning in 65 for Dwarka.. and in 71 was commanding a squadron of ships tells of how when the fuel tanks of manora harbour were aflame.. our Naval chief was drunk beyond his senses and kept remarking to his son about the burning oil tanks.."WHAT a lovely bonfire"...
Never doubt the men who fight.. its those that lead them.. that need to be taken into account.

There were three or four confirmed 104's shot down in 71..
two in air to air..and one by AAA.. the fourth I am still not sure of.
Both A2A encounters were in the southern sector.. one is available on AC tufails site..the other involved the famous mervyn middlecoat...who seems to have made the mistake of trying to outfly a mig-21 instead of trying to outrun it or outclimb it.. (for his defense.. he may have been low on fuel since he was at the end of his patrol and heading back over the coast near the Kutch).

well when i looked at records iaf had performed better than paf in every field may be it ground support or dog fights no doubt we were not good ad you guys in 65 but were better in 71 the iaf had done over 4000 sorties which was much much greater than that of paf the pf did not even interven during the raid on karachi port by indian navy

 

[SQ8]

well when i looked at records iaf had performed better than paf in every field may be it ground support or dog fights no doubt we were not good ad you guys in 65 but were better in 71 the iaf had done over 4000 sorties which was much much greater than that of paf the pf did not even interven during the raid on karachi port by indian navy

If you would go through my post again.. I stated that the PAF was held back to conserve itself for a counter offensive.
The attack on the harbour could not be stopped.. mostly because the navy itself did not know what it wanted from the PAF.

As far as being better than us in 71..
place a tally board.. id suggest Kaider tufail's records ... for both IAF and PAF losses..
and you will see who did better with the constraints.
Had the PAF not held its forces back for the offensive.. the tally would have been different.
I would suggest that you not use wiki for records.. all biased and tampered with..
ACIG has some accurate ones..
Also please buy and read the book flight of the falcon by AC sajjad haider.. his accounts.. of the wars are some of the most fair and accurate you will find...both on 65 and 71.

For the 65 war.. I recommend the 1965 air war by PVS Jagan mohan and Samir Chopra... it has accurate details on it.

 

[John Doe]

@Windjammer:

Till recently, I was content with providing you with rope and then watching you hang yourself with it. Some occasions, you thoughtfully brought the rope yourself.

Entertainment was served for everyone on the forum, so far so good.

But now this is really tiresome, actually very irritating: your constant lying about what I said, he said, she said......etc., etc. I mean it when I said that you are a sad little disturbed child. No adult or even a mature 15 year old girl would type what you do.

After you were done wiping the floor with your credibility , you had to suck the fun out for me by lying about my posts? Not cool at all!

I am a life member of the SPCA and all, but I can't be tolerant of all sick puppies, you know! You genuinely need help and I am not saying this as someone arguing with you, but just as an neutral observer.

Get well soon, Windjammer, there are some many posts which are crying out for your borrowed scans of 'Fricker's' article. Who cares if they are unrelated to the post at hand?

 

[blackops]

If you would go through my post again.. I stated that the PAF was held back to conserve itself for a counter offensive.
The attack on the harbour could not be stopped.. mostly because the navy itself did not know what it wanted from the PAF.

As far as being better than us in 71..
place a tally board.. id suggest Kaider tufail's records ... for both IAF and PAF losses..
and you will see who did better with the constraints.
Had the PAF not held its forces back for the offensive.. the tally would have been different.
I would suggest that you not use wiki for records.. all biased and tampered with..
ACIG has some accurate ones..
Also please buy and read the book flight of the falcon by AC sajjad haider.. his accounts.. of the wars are some of the most fair and accurate you will find...both on 65 and 71.

For the 65 war.. I recommend the 1965 air war by PVS Jagan mohan and Samir Chopra... it has accurate details on it.

dude how could have your air force gone for an offensive role when it did not had the jets to fight most of them were damaged and could not be repaired because there were no men to repai them and as for your navy it had no idea for what it wants from paf was because it was having a hard time dealing with indian navy
and as per 65 i said you guys did better

 

[Joe Shearer]

dude how could have your air force gone for an offensive role when it did not had the jets to fight most of them were damaged and could not be repaired because there were no men to repai them and as for your navy it had no idea for what it wants from paf was because it was having a hard time dealing with indian navy
and as per 65 i said you guys did better

@Blackops

Your repeated refusal to read what has been written in plain English, and to push in your preconceived notions instead, adds nothing to the quality of the discussion. Please stop to understand what Santro has written before jumping to reply.

Were you a fly on the wall counting how many planes were damaged? Who told you that there were no men to repair them? Have you a foggy idea about what the PAF headcount in maintenance was? When we struggle to account for their planes, you have an insiders information about their maintenance staff, their readiness and their adequacy. Are we supposed to roll over thunderstruck at your insights?

And why do you repeat what Santro says about their navy not knowing what they wanted from their air force as if it is a novel discovery of your own?

 

[SQ8]

@Blackops

Your repeated refusal to read what has been written in plain English, and to push in your preconceived notions instead, adds nothing to the quality of the discussion. Please stop to understand what Santro has written before jumping to reply.

Were you a fly on the wall counting how many planes were damaged? Who told you that there were no men to repair them? Have you a foggy idea about what the PAF headcount in maintenance was? When we struggle to account for their planes, you have an insiders information about their maintenance staff, their readiness and their adequacy. Are we supposed to roll over thunderstruck at your insights?

And why do you repeat what Santro says about their navy not knowing what they wanted from their air force as if it is a novel discovery of your own?

Lets help the lad shall we..
the PAF had about 280 combat fighters..as I have reiterated before..
a majority of the force was held back to support the attack by Tikka Khan's II corps..in which it was calculated the PAF losses would encompass 1/3 of its pre war force over 7 to 10 days.. thats about 100 aircraft.. whilst in CAS and other supporting operations.
Until the offensive was launched.. the PAF was to maintain pressure on IAF airbases to reduce the IAf effectiveness on PA targets and other installation prior to this offensive. At the same time.. air support..was to be provided to any holding actions of the PA along the border from Kashmir to Kutch.
Bengali defectors(and those grounded)cost the PAF 30 to 40% of its manpower.. not to mention give vital intel to IAF planners down to the exact layout and best approaches to avoid radar.

Now for the navy..
the PAF had zero Maritime recce ability.. no anti ship weapons.
The navy was aware of this.. still.. the PAF flew 127 visual recce sorties after the Osa problem.


Now here is more for you.
in 71 the IAF had close to about a 1000 combat aircraft..(exact number would be appreciated for the quality of the thread, if I missed a post where it is stated.. I apologize)..
According to PVS jagan Mohan..the IAF lost 75 aircraft in 65..
and lost the same number in 71.
out of those 75 ... 18 aircraft were lost in A2A combat...
36 to our AAA..
and 17 due to operational accidents
a total of 8 mig-21's.. 19 su-7's.. 23 Hunters.. 5 Canberra's.. 3 Gnats.. 5 Mystere's.. 4 HF-24.. 1 Vampire.. 1 alize.. 1 Dakota.. 1 army observation craft and 4 helicopters.
the IAF flew over 6500 sorties and lost 36 men

The PAF in 65 flew a total of 2364 sorties.. averaging 107 sorties per day..
in 71..they flew 3027 sorties.. averaging 201 per day..
they lost 27 aircraft..
10 in A2A combat..
7 on the ground..
7 to enemy AAA
and 3 to operational accidents
out of which 15 men were lost.
in the east.. a squadron of 12 aircraft faced 200 and still held out beyond what was expected rationally.
How is that not a BETTER performance than in 65??
By all calculations.. the PAF was 1/3rd the size of the IAF..
and still managed the above.. against clearly a well equipped, well trained force with a sound thought out plan with superior intel..

the war was won by the Indian military forces.. and a victory is a victory.... but by no means did we make it easy..and the victor does hold all bragging rights as absurd as they may be..
But the performance given by the PAF was nothing short of commendable.
Inquires were made after the 71 war over the supposed dismal performance of the PAF in the war.. because few knew what the whole war plan hedged on..
The generals dragged our nation into the ground.. and decided to blame everybody else in the process.

 

[deckingraj]

@raj...A little incorrect on the support to the Pakistani's by the Americans.. by 65 the Americans had embargoed us on spare parts and supplies.. and while we had plenty available at the start..had the fight dragged on.. we would have had unserviceable jets.

I know about the embargo Santro but may be i did not explained my point..You had great relations with US prior to 65 offensive...Our leaders were making lot of hue and cry against the military aid you were getting from the yanks..In fact Nehru wrote a letter sharing the same concern to then US president way back in late 50's...We were promised that arms are not intended to be used against us...Embargo was imminent but was ignored by Pak generals and these are one of those comical errors that i was talking about in 65...When i said situation was not hopeless than i mean you guys were getting armed to teeths by the Americans and the parity in quality was very much there, in fact better in some accounts....Just look at the level of attacks and indian response...We did not open a new front in the east...Your navy raids were unanswered(even though PN did not achieve much)....Your fighters were equipped with A2A missiles. Even though they missed the kill frenzy leashed out by the cannons of your fighters it was good enough for a phycological edge...Our fighters had clear instructions to not engage....In other words India was defensive from the word go....The amount of defensive mind can be estimated from the most comical mistake that has the potential to embarrass even hitler for his misadventure in Russian winters....With 80% of Pakistan ammunition used viz-a-viz just 20% by India we went ahead with the cease fire... You know why?? - because we had no clue about that!!!!!!!...

Pakistani generals knew about all this, Our initial hands on in Sir Creek bold them even further and Yes Operation Gibaltar was a great plan but just militarily...It ignored the repercussions and we all know what happened then.......

The relations with the Chinese picked up after 66.. not 62.. Ayub was still hoping for a grand alliance against the red menace with India..especially after 62....you have to give credit to him for doing everything he could to appease the Americans.. bending over, down .. left right.. all of it.
It was Bhutto who knew China was our future...

I will humbly disagree.. In fact at that time USSR was the biggest enemy so joining hands with even communist China was not considered sin by USA.. This is where Ayub shared his services for his masters...Yes you are right about Pakistan offer for joint defence against a possible Chinese agression but it was in mid 50's. At that time Nehru was singing imaginary songs with his Chinese counterparts...However 61 changed the equation dramatically. Foe's Foe is a friend perfectly fit's here... So you are right that relation with China's improved even further with China after 65 war and US embargo because the China was only hope to counter India's modernization due to their newly found love with ruskies....but you are wrong when you say that China and Pak were not hand in gloves before 65.

...............
Never doubt the men who fight.. its those that lead them.. that need to be taken into account.

I agree with all of the above and chose to pick this line which is very well written. And yes it is very logical to say that PAF did better than what they did in 65 however the difference this time was IAF performance. Anyways the result of the war is in front of us and hopefully no more misadventures by either side fructify(even in dreams)....