Kashmiris want accession to Pakistan: (FaZL)

[Armstrong]

See the UN Resolutions thread in the 'Kashmir War' section for more details, but Pakistan did begin to withdraw its forces later on during the 50s/60s, India didn't.

Dude you know as well as I that Kashmir ain't gonna be had through diplomatic niceties ! As much as I would have strong views about any Kashmiri talking about 'not joining Pakistan' & you know I do - Pakistanis by & large don't care whether its 'Independence' or 'Pakistan'. However India isn't going to concede either of the two quietly even if thats exactly how we - the both of us - won our freedom. Whatever we may level against the British - They did follow the Rule of Law, they were Honorable People despite the many blemishes.

 

[Solomon2]

The Chairman Kashmir Committee observed that Kashmiris want accession to Pakistan, for which they have rendered unprecedented sacrifices during the last six decades.

It's not an observation. Z.A.B. characterized this (in his 1967 book "Myth of Independence") as an article of faith for Pakistanis. The reality, as he discovered in 1965, was quite different. But it takes a very rare Pakistani politician to disabuse his constituency of their prejudices rather than exploit them and Z.A. Bhutto, faced with such a choice, always chose exploitation.

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

Dude you know as well as I that Kashmir ain't gonna be had through diplomatic niceties ! As much as I would have strong views about any Kashmiri talking about 'not joining Pakistan' & you know I do - Pakistanis by & large don't care whether its 'Independence' or 'Pakistan'. However India isn't going to concede either of the two quietly even if thats exactly how we - the both of us - won our freedom. Whatever we may level against the British - They did follow the Rule of Law, they were Honorable People despite the many blemishes.

There must always be a political and social front, if the people's voice is so strong, then it cannot be ignored. That said, I do understand the need for a secular, patriotic armed struggle, which is under the control of a central body, in order to strengthen political moves.

The solution lays neither in solely political or military means, it is a mixture of both.

 

[Armstrong]

There must always be a political and social front, if the people's voice is so strong, then it cannot be ignored. That said, I do understand the need for a secular, patriotic armed struggle, which is under the control of a central body, in order to strengthen political moves.

The solution lays neither in solely political or military means, it is a mixture of both.

My friend let us consult history - The salvation of any Nation lies not through political niceties when the adversary isn't going to bend but through armed struggle. You do not debate your way out of 'servitude' but by taking through force what belongs to you. Look at the history of our people - We got done over by the Mughals, then the Afghans, then the Dogras & now this - We're a bunch of pussies who were more busy being artisans & craftsmen then warriors ! We had a civilization but not the practicality to have anything close to a respectable army to protect it. Even now...the struggle for independence has been a 'joke' when compared with *say!* the Irish War of Independence, the Scottish, the Libyan, the Algerian, the American etc. Apparently we're still content with the way we are.

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

My friend let us consult history - The salvation of any Nation lies not through political niceties when the adversary isn't going to bend but through armed struggle. You do not debate your way out of 'servitude' but by taking through force what belongs to you. Look at the history of our people - We got done over by the Mughals, then the Afghans, then the Dogras & now this - We're a bunch of pussies who were more busy being artisans & craftsmen then warriors ! We had a civilization but not the practicality to have anything close to a respectable army to protect it. Even now...the struggle for independence has been a 'joke' when compared with *say!* the Irish War of Independence, the Scottish, the Libyan, the Algerian, the American etc. Apparently we're still content with the way we are.

All the examples you named of Armed Struggles had a credible political front with them; you cannot go up against a 700,000 strong army without political will, it must be both. The concept of guerilla warfare is to subdue the enemy into virtual surrender, with political and social struggles on the ground in the form of protests, civil disobedience and what-not, along with a strong Armed Struggle; all under a central body, only then can Kashmir achieve independence.

But yes, we have been partisans too much and warriors too less. It is time for a re-think, we must not let our great culture go to waste, but at the same time, must have a strong and credible military read to protect it. I think we should follow Ataturk's model in this case - conscription at the age of 18, military training for several weeks/months (basis), then return to civil life, for all citizens. If then the threat of war becomes real, they are called upon for actual conscription. Alongside this, a strong, standing army with a vast array of defensive infrastructure is critical.

 

[Armstrong]

All the examples you named of Armed Struggles had a credible political front with them; you cannot go up against a 700,000 strong army without political will, it must be both. The concept of guerilla warfare is to subdue the enemy into virtual surrender, with political and social struggles on the ground in the form of protests, civil disobedience and what-not, along with a strong Armed Struggle; all under a central body, only then can Kashmir achieve independence.

But yes, we have been partisans too much and warriors too less. It is time for a re-think, we must not let our great culture go to waste, but at the same time, must have a strong and credible military read to protect it. I think we should follow Ataturk's model in this case - conscription at the age of 18, military training for several weeks/months (basis), then return to civil life, for all citizens. If then the threat of war becomes real, they are called upon for actual conscription. Alongside this, a strong, standing army with a vast array of defensive infrastructure is critical.

Yup but all of that comes later ! Right now neither the Gandhian Non-Violence, nor Che's Armed Struggle or Jinnah's Constitutionalism is working - We really need to go back to the drawing board because unless we come up with something Kashmir will remain an outstanding issue for the next 65 years as well.

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

Yup but all of that comes later ! Right now neither the Gandhian Non-Violence, nor Che's Armed Struggle or Jinnah's Constitutionalism is working - We really need to go back to the drawing board because unless we come up with something Kashmir will remain an outstanding issue for the next 65 years as well.

They are all not working because:

1. They are all separate causes. One organization participates in one, the second the other, the third the last. There needs to be unity in the ranks.

2. They will not work on their own, a mixture is needed with a strong, centralized leadership.

3. Political leadership needs to 'step up', on all sides. Be it GB, Jammu, AJK, Valley, Ladakh, Leh etc. Concentrated central effort.

 

[Armstrong]

They are all not working because:

1. They are all separate causes. One organization participates in one, the second the other, the third the last. There needs to be unity in the ranks.

2. They will not work on their own, a mixture is needed with a strong, centralized leadership.

3. Political leadership needs to 'step up', on all sides. Be it GB, Jammu, AJK, Valley, Ladakh, Leh etc. Concentrated central effort.

Both the People in AJK & GB as well as the ones in Jammu, Ladakh & Leh are happy with their respective countries ! Its the valley where that effort, that leadership needs to emerge. If 65 years hasn't sobered the Kashmiris up into a people who 'know what they want' then what hope do the next few decades have ?

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

Both the People in AJK & GB as well as the ones in Jammu, Ladakh & Leh are happy with their respective countries ! Its the valley where that effort, that leadership needs to emerge. If 65 years hasn't sobered the Kashmiris up into a people who 'know what they want' then what hope do the next few decades have ?

Albeit, the people of these parts are the Kashmiri people. The struggle may be concentrated in the valley due to its military build up, but it needs to be extended to all parts.

 

[Armstrong]

Albeit, the people of these parts are the Kashmiri people. The struggle may be concentrated in the valley due to its military build up, but it needs to be extended to all parts.

You tell me what has 'the struggle' achieved in the last two decades of its existence or what is it forecasted to achieve in the next two ? I'd say nothing unless their is a fundamental change in the Kashmiri psyche - For too long have we been content to be pushed around like sheep...look at the Pushtuns would they allow it to happen something similar even for a second ? Look at the Iranians ? Look at the Marhattas from Aurangzeb's time ? Jubb tukk ghairat yeh gaum apneii aaap mein paidaa nahin kareii geeii tou aaap ko koi hathleiii mein rakhh kar Azadi nahin dei ga !

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

You tell me what has 'the struggle' achieved in the last two decades of its existence or what is it forecasted to achieve in the next two ? I'd say nothing unless their is a fundamental change in the Kashmiri psyche - For too long have we been content to be pushed around like sheep...look at the Pushtuns would they allow it to happen something similar even for a second ? Look at the Iranians ? Look at the Marhattas from Aurangzeb's time ? Jubb tukk ghairat yeh gaum apneii aaap mein paidaa nahin kareii geeii tou aaap ko koi hathleiii mein rakhh kar Azadi nahin dei ga !

I quite agree, it is time for a re-think, we need a stronger military side to the struggle. But we also need a political front. Having two things is always better than one, no? One of the reasons the British left India is because they could not hold it any more militarily, and the political class was opposed to them - they were facing anarchy in both sectors that mattered.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

They are all not working because:

1. They are all separate causes. One organization participates in one, the second the other, the third the last. There needs to be unity in the ranks.

2. They will not work on their own, a mixture is needed with a strong, centralized leadership.

3. Political leadership needs to 'step up', on all sides. Be it GB, Jammu, AJK, Valley, Ladakh, Leh etc. Concentrated central effort.

When will some of you get this in your head ?

How will the political leaderships of all these divisions step up when they don't even have a common goal ?

AJK and GB hasn't made a call for freedom from Pak .

Jammu and Ladakh both of which are non-muslim majority have absolutely rejected the idea of separatism and staunchly support staying with India to the extent of absolutely despising Kashmiris from the valley .

Separatism and call for indipendence or whatever is only limited to the Kashmir valley where the Kashmiris live.

All these things are well documented by Indian , International and even many Pakistani researchers and experts.

P.S- And btw , Leh is part of Ladakh and not separate from it . Please get your basics right before asking anyone to step up .

 

[Armstrong]

I quite agree, it is time for a re-think, we need a stronger military side to the struggle. But we also need a political front. Having two things is always better than one, no? One of the reasons the British left India is because they could not hold it any more militarily, and the political class was opposed to them - they were facing anarchy in both sectors that mattered.

Haaan...par Pakistan is enough mess right now to provide any sort of a 'military side' & your problems are compounded by India taking full advantage of our predicament to use the time to consolidate their hold & their military adroitness.

On the political front I sincerely believe that there being a strong political voice for Kashmir is intrinsically linked to sincere leadership in Pakistan ! You've got the Geelanis, the Lones, the Mirwaiz, the Maliks etc. but none of them have the Political clout or the charisma to fight for the cause in a manner which sees some sort of movement on it.

So right now, I'm afraid the status quo is there for the staying for I do not see the Kashmiri people growing a sense of what Iqbal would define as 'Khuddi' & the economically bankrupt, politically corrupt & besought with terrorism Pakistan can't really do anything.

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

When will some of you get this in your head ?

How will the political leaderships of all these divisions step up when they don't even have a common goal ?

AJK and GB hasn't made a call for freedom from Pak .

Jammu and Ladakh both of which are non-muslim majority have absolutely rejected the idea of separatism and staunchly support staying with India to the extent of absolutely despising Kashmiris from the valley .

Separatism and call for indipendence or whatever is only limited to the Kashmir valley where the Kashmiris live.

All these things are well documented by Indian , International and even many Pakistani researchers and experts.

P.S- And btw , Leh is part of Ladakh and not separate from it . Please get your basics right before asking anyone to step up .

There's a reason why I mentioned Leh separately and that's the fact that it's the centre-point for Ladakh. If India is so confident in these claims, then why not hold a referendum? You haven't for 65 years; the people may disagree politically, but as one, we are the same.

 

[KS]

There's a reason why I mentioned Leh separately and that's the fact that it's the centre-point for Ladakh. If India is so confident in these claims, then why not hold a referendum? You haven't for 65 years; the people may disagree politically, but as one, we are the same.

Yeah saw that in the years 89-92..how 'one' you people are.

Anyway for the referendum to happen, Pakistan must vacate its army and the tribals who invaded Kashmir from its part of Kashmir. So please ask the powers-that-be in Pakistan to first fullfill the prerequisites for holding the referendum. Then we will think about it.

See the UN Resolutions thread in the 'Kashmir War' section for more details, but Pakistan did begin to withdraw its forces later on during the 50s/60s, India didn't.

India is not mandated to remove the forces. Its a unilateral withdrawal from Pakistan's side and only after that is complete and verified, then India begin withdrawing its forces and bring them down to a acceptable level to maintain law and order.

Your sacred land?It's the Kashmiri peoples land, not yours. And no one cares if you will be missing anyone, you're sitting in the US yourself haha

There is nothign to rofl about it. Kashmir is where Amarnath baba and Mata Vaishno Devi are there and hence Kashmir has a huge religious significance to the billion Hindus in this country. Something like Al-Aqsa has for Muslims