Kashmiris want accession to Pakistan: (FaZL)

[KS]

With the requirement that we'd withdraw our forces for that to happen. You know as well as I that seeing that we don't trust them to do what is right but instead come up with another BS argument to solidify their control just like Hyderabad & Junagardh we'd never withdraw.

Then no referendum. Thank you Pakistan...

My sentiments exactly. What happened to "democracy" in the world's largest democracy?

Who gave you the idea that democracy means allowing secession ? Democracy means simply the form of Govt is through elections within the constitutional framework of the country.. Now the constitution does no exactly allow secession of territory, does it ?

Anyway I dont fault you people for not even having an idea of what democracy is, given that you have not had one democratically elected Govt complete its full term.

 

[KS]

All the examples you named of Armed Struggles had a credible political front with them; you cannot go up against a 700,000 strong army without political will, it must be both.

Not to come into your internal Kashmiri banter, however utopian or impractical, it might be. But just to remind you that its not 700,000 but 1.3 million regular armed forces plus another 1 million paramilitary forces with many millions ready for enlisting if the need be. So if you guys have any, i mean any thoughts of achieving something by force, please forget it. Haven't you learnt these in these two decades that violence will achieve nil, nilch, nada against the Indian state, especially when many of your brethern are against your goals ? Rather it is akin to putting sand on your own heads.

How many Kashmiri Muslims (Sunni + Shia) are there ? 10 million ? You think they can stand against a nation of 1.2+ billion even if I give you the liberty of assuming that all Muslims irrespective of their sect are anti-India (which btw is not true) ? And btw "secular nationalist" struggle ? Gimme a break...What is that ? Where have the calls for Nizam-e-Mustafa gone ? Where have the threats from the loudspeakers of the mosques gone ? Asi gache Pakistan, Batav ros Batnev san..what happened to these taunts ?

In end of the of the day, Kashmir problem is a religious problem, pure and simple,both you and I know it and there is no point pretending otherwise.It is nothing but the inability of the Valley Muslims to live in a country of majority Hindus and who want to carve out their own piece of sharia controlled real estate there. Why ? I dont know. Do we care about that ? Hell no.

 

[KS]

And btw people who compare the Indian struggle for independence against the British and even separation of Pakistan from India to Kashmir are just ignorants who cant see the vast vast differences in both cases. If you need further explanation ask.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

There's a reason why I mentioned Leh separately and that's the fact that it's the centre-point for Ladakh. If India is so confident in these claims, then why not hold a referendum? You haven't for 65 years; the people may disagree politically, but as one, we are the same.

The bold part doesn't mean anything , when you are not united in your view of separatism and even religion , ethnicity , language or nationality. These are the main topics that matter in the context of this discussion .

About the referendum read KS's post .

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

Then no referendum. Thank you Pakistan...

You have a habit of missing certain segments of my posts that don't conform to your views; as I've already said, refer to the UN Resolutions Thread. India has refused, not Pakistan.

Who gave you the idea that democracy means allowing secession ? Democracy means simply the form of Govt is through elections within the constitutional framework of the country.. Now the constitution does no exactly allow secession of territory, does it ?

Democracy is made of two Greek words: demos, and kratos - literally "people power". If India can't recognize that fact, then I do not understand how you claim you are a democracy (unless of course, you're a North Korean, or Cuban 'democracy'). I doubt the Ancient Athenians had a country-wide constitution unto which they defined democracy, but I'm pretty sure they're source of modern democracy.

Anyway I dont fault you people for not even having an idea of what democracy is, given that you have not had one democratically elected Govt complete its full term.

When all else fails, resort to racially-charged insults.

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

Not to come into your internal Kashmiri banter, however utopian or impractical, it might be. But just to remind you that its not 700,000 but 1.3 million regular armed forces plus another 1 million paramilitary forces with many millions ready for enlisting if the need be. So if you guys have any, i mean any thoughts of achieving something by force, please forget it. Haven't you learnt these in these two decades that violence will achieve nil, nilch, nada against the Indian state, especially when many of your brethern are against your goals ? Rather it is akin to putting sand on your own heads.

How many Kashmiri Muslims (Sunni + Shia) are there ? 10 million ? You think they can stand against a nation of 1.2+ billion even if I give you the liberty of assuming that all Muslims irrespective of their sect are anti-India (which btw is not true) ? And btw "secular nationalist" struggle ? Gimme a break...What is that ? Where have the calls for Nizam-e-Mustafa gone ? Where have the threats from the loudspeakers of the mosques gone ? Asi gache Pakistan, Batav ros Batnev san..what happened to these taunts ?

In end of the of the day, Kashmir problem is a religious problem, pure and simple,both you and I know it and there is no point pretending otherwise.It is nothing but the inability of the Valley Muslims to live in a country of majority Hindus and who want to carve out their own piece of sharia controlled real estate there. Why ? I dont know. Do we care about that ? Hell no.

I wonder if you've calculated the costs of arming and training 1.2 billion people, if not, no fear -- blind nationalism shall prevail! In regards to the 700,000 figure, I believe I'm referring to the amount of Indian Boots on the ground in Kashmir. Come now, if this land of Kashmir is so sacred to you, are you willing to move your entire Armed Forces to it to retain it, at the cost of the rest? Call me stupid, but I don't think moving your entire forces to one small, northern area will do any particular good for the defence of the nation as a whole.

I'll leave the forcing your political beliefs down the barrel of an AK47 to those more familiar with Human Rights Violations, who knew the nation of 1.2billion democrats wouldn't flinch to send in boots to protect the power of the people?

You've also mis-interpreted 'Kashmiri' as 'Muslim'; after all, is it not India that takes the stance that Kashmir is the namesake of a Hindu, thus is Indian?

And btw people who compare the Indian struggle for independence against the British and even separation of Pakistan from India to Kashmir are just ignorants who cant see the vast vast differences in both cases. If you need further explanation ask.

Sure, explain away. I'm sure I'll be enlightened as to why both aren't struggles against oppression and occupation.

The bold part doesn't mean anything , when you are not united in your view of separatism and even religion , ethnicity , language or nationality. These are the main topics that matter in the context of this discussion .

About the referendum read KS's post .

Neither is India united politically, or ethnically. Yet, you still claim to be a united nation-state.

 

[KS]

You have a habit of missing certain segments of my posts that don't conform to your views; as I've already said, refer to the UN Resolutions Thread. India has refused, not Pakistan.

Rather its you who needs to do the reading. Please do go to that thread or better still, search for the posts of one member called "toxic_pus" regarding the subject. It will surely set right many myths about the prerequisites, conditions of the referendum.

Democracy is made of two Greek words: demos, and kratos - literally "people power". If India can't recognize that fact, then I do not understand how you claim you are a democracy (unless of course, you're a North Korean, or Cuban 'democracy'). I doubt the Ancient Athenians had a country-wide constitution unto which they defined democracy, but I'm pretty sure they're source of modern democracy.

Uber-simplistic assumption. Democracy as we practise today is the will of the people -- not to secede but just to decide who governs them, within the constitutional framework. I repeat, within the constitutional framework. Any thing other than that is called anarchy. Not democracy. By your definition if tomorrow the people in my gully decide, ok we will be a separate country called Cheran Nagaristan, no, thats not going to happen. Same with Kashmir.

When all else fails, resort to racially-charged insults.

It was not intended as an insult. Honestly you people have little idea of what a democracy actually is. US is considered the greatest of the democracies. Do I need to remind you what the North did when the South seceded ?

 

[KS]

I wonder if you've calculated the costs of arming and training 1.2 billion people, if not, no fear -- blind nationalism shall prevail! In regards to the 700,000 figure, I believe I'm referring to the amount of Indian Boots on the ground in Kashmir. Come now, if this land of Kashmir is so sacred to you, are you willing to move your entire Armed Forces to it to retain it, at the cost of the rest? Call me stupid, but I don't think moving your entire forces to one small, northern area will do any particular good for the defence of the nation as a whole.

When did I say we need to arm 1.2 billion people ? The regular Armed forces of India along with the paramilitaries and the other residents of the state of Jammu and Kashmir like the ones in J&K police are enough to deal with any and all contingencies arising there.

And 700,000 boots on the ground is nothign but a big fat lie that may look good on a propaganda piece. Realistically there are hardly more than 2,00,000 sec forces (army + paramilitary) in Kashmir and most of them are along the LoC and not in urban centers.

At the cost of the rest ? what does it mean ? Obviously not. Every inch of land of India is the same and its transfer is non-negotiable. The only way to wrest control of a piece of land from INdia is through war and no one is strong enough in this region to do that.

I'll leave the forcing your political beliefs down the barrel of an AK47 to those more familiar with Human Rights Violations, who knew the nation of 1.2billion democrats wouldn't flinch to send in boots to protect the power of the people?

See again you are talking things about democracy without understanding what democracy is.

You've also mis-interpreted 'Kashmiri' as 'Muslim'; after all, is it not India that takes the stance that Kashmir is the namesake of a Hindu, thus is Indian?

I repeat - there is no point pretending that the Kashmir dispute is not religious in nature. It is a religious issue and no Indian is ready to loose another part of his land to religion based politics.

No I will not make the mistake of conflating the Kashmiri identity with Muslim -- for the Pandits are the truest representatives of what Kashmiriyat is. That is why I take extra effort to write Kashmiri Sunni Muslims everywhere.

 

[KS]

Sure, explain away. I'm sure I'll be enlightened as to why both aren't struggles against oppression and occupation.

British were not natives of this land, Bharat Varsh, the land extending from the mighty Himalayas to the turbulent waters of the Indian Ocean -- Indians are.

British had no links to this land racially,culturally or religiously. Indians have.

British did not have the man power/military power to rule India. They ruled sucessfully by pitting one king against other, one Nawab against other. India has the military and man power to keep its control over Kashmir.

British had no land link from their own land for any quick moving of troops/resources to keep their control. India is right next door.

British were physically,economically drained by the WWII. We are not -- we are young, alive, kicking and growing.

During the independence struggle, every Indian was united against the British..but its not so in the case of Kashmir. Jammu, Leh and Ladakh are unanimous in their choice of India. Only a few districts of Kashmir Valley have this azaadi tendency and what is "few districts" in a country of more than 600 districts ?

British did not have a chunk of their territory sliced off from them due to a religion. We were and hence we are in no mood to oblige again.

And last but not least, you, the Kashmiri Sunni Muslims made this a dirty religious fight when you ethnically cleansed the Valley of Hindu, Buddhist and Sikh people and thought you can get away with it. No way are we going to capitulate before your religious fanaticsm.

See I can list literally dozens of causes to show why this comparison is futile and filled with ignorance. But I hope you got the point.

Neither is India united politically, or ethnically. Yet, you still claim to be a united nation-state.

yet we are here. As real as it can get.

 

[Abhishek_]

^i think you meant capitulate not capitalize

 

[Arsalan]

Nice to see every Indian member giving explanations about Kashmir being INTEGRAL part or STRATEGICALLY IMPORTANT
Slip of tongue by one perhaps??

Then no referendum. Thank you Pakistan...

Afraid of the INTEGRAL PART think otherwise?

 

[KS]

its an integral part of India which is also strategically, natural resource wise and religion wise important. Happy ?

 

[ajtr]

kashmir is disputed and occupied.

 

[KRAIT]

THe situation in Kashmir is not going to change any soon and both countries have problems at other regions. Pakistan is busy in the west while India is busy with the Reds.

A point to be taken is that US is not following India's action against the extremists but more attention is given in Pakistan's action in Balochistan.

Kashmir is on back burner. Isolated incidents will happen btw.

 

[somebozo]

Molana Diesel may aswell run a pipe from his bottom to a generator so few deprived citizen of Pakistan have some electricity.