Kashmir unrest: Sympathisers of radicals in Delhi are a bigger threat than Pakistan, Islamic State

[Stephen Cohen]

Plan D: Check out Nepal fares from New Delhi.. If you get a good deal cover it once and for all.. Its a nice place

What if the Madhesis and the Communists restart their battles

And with India siding with Madhesis The commies might attack Indian tourists

 

[Joe Shearer]

This is the crux of the entire article perhaps that the unrest in the valley is not necessarily due to the factors political liberals have so far attributed with. Not denying for a moment at all that for the last decade or so the traditional anti-India sentiment and the religious radicalization are both feeding each other, is it not being a too self-satisfying thought that the unrest has nothing to do with the factors like rampart corruption, gross human right violations by both the state and the security forces with the help of draconian laws like PSA and AFSPA? Unfortunately brushing off the root causes of the traditional anti-Indian sentiments without correcting our wrongs is just giving leeway to continue the same blunders again.

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but very briefly, there is a small hard-core of people leading the separatist faction, centred around Ali Shah. This hard-core had a smaller number, a hugely smaller number, to work with in earlier years. Young people were too concerned with getting on to worry about the separatist, exclusivist ideology promoted by these people, and it had come down to hiring protesters, when the occasion demanded, by the hour. Two or three years ago, there was insufficient sympathy among the rural population, and lukewarm sympathies, centred in one or two pockets in north Kashmir; south Kashmir was Mufti territory and far less afflicted.

On every trip since 2014 August, I have watched the increasing spread of Wahhabi (let us avoid labels that they themselves do not acknowledge - spread of Ahl-e-Hadith) preaching. The spread can be measured by attendance against the local Pir's shrine and the attached mosque against attendance at the local radical mosque. It is that element of increased feeling of being separate that is new to the equation.

This has nothing to do with mehmaan-newazi. That continues firm, and I would be shocked if I wasn't offered outgoing hospitality or kindness as an obvious visitor. But there is far more resentment and animosity against the police, against their methods, and against the felt humiliation. Sadly it is their own police which is the most resented. Having withstood the brunt of the high emergency of earlier years, when things were really troublesome, far, far ahead of what it is today, the local police have become a cynical, trigger-happy, perpetually enraged force. They kill, easily and ruthlessly, and leave the central police completely unnerved by their methods. They, on their turn, are resentful. They have all along fought a very hard, bitter battle to keep the J&K State machinery moving, in spite of the rampant corruption that is a hallmark of that state, they have stood by and watched carefully during election time and allowed peaceful elections to be conducted, although by all accounts, the dramatic changes in electoral independence and freedom from political pressure (elimination of election rigging) that took place in the rest of India under Seshan and his successors have not been seen here yet. At the end of the day, the J&K Police were really, really angry at the incidents in the REC Srinagar, when some bumptious UP/Haryana/Rajasthan yobs among the students, mainly the freshers, straight out of a milieu where Kashmiri-bashing had become a student body feature, took out a hostile demonstration supporting the Indian cricket team, giving a finger to those students supporting other teams. The amount of hostility the local police got from politicians from the home states of these out-of-state students, and the hostile press attention, rankled. Where were these protesters when the real battle was going on?

Meanwhile, there had been repeated instances of the newly-belligerent right wing students - and the usual rowdy element typical of north Indian campuses - picking on Kashmiris and beating them up. The incident where the students cooking meat in their vegetarian hostel in Rajasthan comes to mind. All these elements were constantly being stoked by the radical preaching that young people got every week. Note that this is a country where the usual outlets for students in the rest of India were steadily being reduced and their only place to hang out, their place to talk and exchange views and get silly ideas into their silly student heads was the radical mosque.

It was the increasing feeling that not just India - it was beyond that - but also their own leadership outside the Tehreek, what is known as mainstream politicians, were totally beyond redemption. That the most astute and rooted in the populace leader was caught beating up and killing a subordinate in a quarrel over political graft did not help. That Omar proved to be a wonderful figure in Delhi and a hopeless playboy, one step worse than his father in seeming to be less a man of the people, at Srinagar, did not help. I could go on like this; the hygiene factors remained constant or fluctuated; the motivators increased very steadily and gradually, but inexorably.

I could write more but this is the gist of the situation as I see it.

what has kerala got to do with kashmir? i already agreed radicalization is a global trend... kashmir struggle predates that and the support base is much more widespread to blame it on radicalization alone.

No, it isn't. Do your f**king homework, and don't be such a pedant. that's my role.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

What if the Madhesis and the Communists restart their battles

And with India siding with Madhesis The commies might attack Indian tourists

Bhai mere Risk is there of course..
@thesolar65 : do consider the point by Stephen
BTW Kashmir fare is how much say Delhi to Srinagar.. net is showing around 2200 whereas Delhi to Kathmandu around 6800.. so from budget point of view its triple.. so might as well avoid it if multiple family members are travelling..
BUT if Nepal is peaceful, you can and you should check it out...

 

[Joe Shearer]

I give up. Asked you to read. 07 posts .. and nothing!

Am off

I sympathise. I don't know why he's being such a pain.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Track back to my posts. It is irritating to repeat things. They have nothing against Indians. They have every grouse against Government. You maybe a fauji but if in civil dress, you are their guests, They will protect you with their lives. And next day in your uniform they may try and kill you. They are not against Indians!!!!

Read and come.

They have asked all the REMAINING few Kashmiri Pandits to leave

 

[Joe Shearer]

kashmiris struggling since 1947 . jihad wahabism funding radicalism are brand new addition is world .

Chacha, reconciling reality with your fantasy is your problem, nobody else's. Let me tell you bluntly, there was no struggle until Farooq Abdullah had to be put in power and was looking shaky and some idiots got together and fudged the elections so blatantly that a sizeable segment - radical but not violent - took to arms. Check the date. Then some friends and well-wishers whom you might know personally got involved, took those elements, trained them, armed them and sent them back. They didn't survive; Kashmiris from the Vale are not the soldiering element that you find in Pakistan Administered Kashmir. That is when the substitution with Punjabis and with Pashtuns started; one for zeal and the other for advantage. When they were crushed, after some harsh, bitter struggles, there was nothing to disturb the peace for nearly a decade.

That was the period when the radicalisation happened, not overnight, but one Friday at a time, for nearly six to ten years now. And now the radicalisation has reached critical mass.

And if you think you can solve the problem with bayonets, you are wrong. Their symbolic resistances are traditionally marked by stone pelting over centuries who ever was in the throne. If their long standing resentment and abhorrence for security excesses, extra judicial murders for seventy years get just brushed off in the name of Islamic radicalization, it is not going to help India's cause in the long term either.



Exactly.

Not so.

That symbolic resentment was always present, because Kashmiri administration was always corrupt. And this corruption, for your information, is on all sides, not just those in the throne. The Tehreek, from their subsidies from 'abroad' and from India, amassed huge fortunes, On every visit I see bigger and bigger hotels and resorts and malls belonging to these dedicated and selfless leaders.

That symbolic resentment did not take this form for several years. What on earth are you talking about? Even two years ago, it was nowhere like this. It is the unwillingness of the young people to stand what they increasingly are being taught is an environment hostile to them and their culture that has taken the resentment of misrule and converted it into physical action.

 

[scorpionx]

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but very briefly, there is a small hard-core of people leading the separatist faction, centred around Ali Shah. This hard-core had a smaller number, a hugely smaller number, to work with in earlier years. Young people were too concerned with getting on to worry about the separatist, exclusivist ideology promoted by these people, and it had come down to hiring protesters, when the occasion demanded, by the hour. Two or three years ago, there was insufficient sympathy among the rural population, and lukewarm sympathies, centred in one or two pockets in north Kashmir; south Kashmir was Mufti territory and far less afflicted.

On every trip since 2014 August, I have watched the increasing spread of Wahhabi (let us avoid labels that they themselves do not acknowledge - spread of Ahl-e-Hadith) preaching. The spread can be measured by attendance against the local Pir's shrine and the attached mosque against attendance at the local radical mosque. It is that element of increased feeling of being separate that is new to the equation.

This has nothing to do with mehmaan-newazi. That continues firm, and I would be shocked if I wasn't offered outgoing hospitality or kindness as an obvious visitor. But there is far more resentment and animosity against the police, against their methods, and against the felt humiliation. Sadly it is their own police which is the most resented. Having withstood the brunt of the high emergency of earlier years, when things were really troublesome, far, far ahead of what it is today, the local police have become a cynical, trigger-happy, perpetually enraged force. They kill, easily and ruthlessly, and leave the central police completely unnerved by their methods. They, on their turn, are resentful. They have all along fought a very hard, bitter battle to keep the J&K State machinery moving, in spite of the rampant corruption that is a hallmark of that state, they have stood by and watched carefully during election time and allowed peaceful elections to be conducted, although by all accounts, the dramatic changes in electoral independence and freedom from political pressure (elimination of election rigging) that took place in the rest of India under Seshan and his successors have not been seen here yet. At the end of the day, the J&K Police were really, really angry at the incidents in the REC Srinagar, when some bumptious UP/Haryana/Rajasthan yobs among the students, mainly the freshers, straight out of a milieu where Kashmiri-bashing had become a student body feature, took out a hostile demonstration supporting the Indian cricket team, giving a finger to those students supporting other teams. The amount of hostility the local police got from politicians from the home states of these out-of-state students, and the hostile press attention, rankled. Where were these protesters when the real battle was going on?

Meanwhile, there had been repeated instances of the newly-belligerent right wing students - and the usual rowdy element typical of north Indian campuses - picking on Kashmiris and beating them up. The incident where the students cooking meat in their vegetarian hostel in Rajasthan comes to mind. All these elements were constantly being stoked by the radical preaching that young people got every week. Note that this is a country where the usual outlets for students in the rest of India were steadily being reduced and their only place to hang out, their place to talk and exchange views and get silly ideas into their silly student heads was the radical mosque.

It was the increasing feeling that not just India - it was beyond that - but also their own leadership outside the Tehreek, what is known as mainstream politicians, were totally beyond redemption. That the most astute and rooted in the populace leader was caught beating up and killing a subordinate in a quarrel over political graft did not help. That Omar proved to be a wonderful figure in Delhi and a hopeless playboy, one step worse than his father in seeming to be less a man of the people, at Srinagar, did not help. I could go on like this; the hygiene factors remained constant or fluctuated; the motivators increased very steadily and gradually, but inexorably.

I could write more but this is the gist of the situation as I see it.



No, it isn't. Do your f**king homework, and don't be such a pedant. that's my role.

Thank you, Sir for this elaborate and extremely helpful post. Can we all wish to see few more like this when you feel better?

 

[Joe Shearer]

That is my friend, I am stressing upon above all. Create a breathing space first, conduct surveys why Kashmir has the most number of school drop outs in recent times (an extra ordinary step taken by Bangladeshi Government after a number of youths got disappeared and later found enrolled in extremist camp), carry out medical investigations about the psychological impact on Kashmiris after decade long series of bloody violence and unrest and to formulate how to heal the scars. We can not outright reject these ideas before blaming them entirely on religious extremism.

You want an answer?

No jobs.

No furshlugginer jobs.

13 million young people come into the job market all over India every year. About 5 million get employment. About 10%, 500,000 get government, public sector and private sector jobs. You have seen the rest every day of your life: courier boys, helpers with mini-vans, service assistants and waiters in dhabas and down-scale restaurants, beauticians, taxi drivers, electricians, plumbers, carpenters, masons, construction labour....all without any kind of statutory support. Those who have ventured out, kept low profiles, studiously avoided cricket matches and their aftermath, have got jobs and are working happily in India and abroad. They are a handful. So why stay on in school?

 

[scorpionx]

That symbolic resentment did not take this form for several years. What on earth are you talking about? Even two years ago, it was nowhere like this. It is the unwillingness of the young people to stand what they increasingly are being taught is an environment hostile to them and their culture that has taken the resentment of misrule and converted it into physical action.

My comment was purely based on Noorani's book where he writes 'the stone pelting has a hallowed tradition in Kashmir, especially among the youth. Zareef Ahmad Zareef traces its origin to the unpopular Mughal rule over Kashmir in the 16th Century. Young men, known as Dilawar, would pelt stones at the patrolling Mughal Soldiers.'

 

[Stephen Cohen]

On every visit I see bigger and bigger hotels and resorts and malls belonging to these dedicated and selfless leaders.

If I am not wrong This is SARCASM ; The Tehreek E Huriyat and Tehreek E Azadi
are all parts of the Huriyat

 

[Joe Shearer]

its impossible to change the society radically within a span of 5 years... the angry teens on street are more likely to be children of 90s violence.... the radicalization would mean increased violence against civilians and police/army... that has not happened...
if the new religion forces people to pick up stones instead of guns, its surely a tenth aggressive of what it replaced.

Sure, you're right. You've got the whole thing sewn up, arguing from first principles. One of the reasons why early Europeans who encountered Indian society were uncomfortable in their dealings is the tendency of Indians to go off at a tangent and argue from first principles, totally untainted by empiricism. There was not the slightest attempt at garnering physical evidence or conducting an enquiry into things as they are, rather than contemplating the Indian equivalent of how many angels can dance on the tip of a pin.

OK, let's try again.

You mustn't forget that they have bloody examples of those who picked up the gun.

Incidentally there is precisely that indicator: increased violence against civilians and police. I am surprised that you have not noticed this unpleasant new trend.

My comment was purely based on Noorani's book where he writes 'the stone pelting has a hallowed tradition in Kashmir, especially among the youth. Zareef Ahmad Zareef traces its origin to the unpopular Mughal rule over Kashmir in the 16th Century. Young men, known as Dilawar, would pelt stones at the patrolling Mughal Soldiers.'

I suggest reading M. K. Teng as a corrective.

I am an admirer of Noorani, but he has this lamentable habit of defining his premises perfectly, and then arriving at mysterious and wholly untenable conclusions.

The following Afghan rule was much harsher, and even that was exceeded by the cruelty of the Sikhs (in that multi-cultural state, the most oppressive governors of the Vale were Muslims themselves, according to some sources that I have read). What happened to the stone-throwers? They disappeared. The Afghans sliced off heads, they didn't waste time in sweet reason.

 

[scorpionx]

Sure, you're right. You've got the whole thing sewn up, arguing from first principles. One of the reasons why early Europeans who encountered Indian society were uncomfortable in their dealings is the tendency of Indians to go off at a tangent and argue from first principles, totally untainted by empiricism. There was not the slightest attempt at garnering physical evidence or conducting an enquiry into things as they are, rather than contemplating the Indian equivalent of how many angels can dance on the tip of a pin.

OK, let's try again.

You mustn't forget that they have bloody examples of those who picked up the gun.

Incidentally there is precisely that indicator: increased violence against civilians and police. I am surprised that you have not noticed this unpleasant new trend.



I suggest reading M. K. Teng as a corrective.

I am an admirer of Noorani, but he has this lamentable habit of defining his premises perfectly, and then arriving at mysterious and wholly untenable conclusions.

The following Afghan rule was much harsher, and even that was exceeded by the cruelty of the Sikhs (in that multi-cultural state, the most oppressive governors of the Vale were Muslims themselves, according to some sources that I have read). What happened to the stone-throwers? They disappeared. The Afghans sliced off heads, they didn't waste time in sweet reason.

I read Teng's Kashmir Dispute-the fault lines which was mainly aimed at Noorani's first volume on Kashmir Dispute. I found it unnecessarily critical of some of the passages of that book. Not long after I read his claim of the Chinese repudiating the MacMohan line I started losing interest. Which book of his do you suggest to read?

 

[Joe Shearer]

I read Teng's Kashmir Dispute-the fault lines which was mainly aimed at Noorani's first volume on Kashmir Dispute. I found it unnecessarily critical of some of the passages of that book. Not long after I read his claim of the Chinese repudiating the MacMohan line I started losing interest. Which book of his do you suggest to read?

Let me ask my mentor on Kashmir affairs, Shantiveer Kaul, and get back to you.

I read Teng's Kashmir Dispute-the fault lines which was mainly aimed at Noorani's first volume on Kashmir Dispute. I found it unnecessarily critical of some of the passages of that book. Not long after I read his claim of the Chinese repudiating the MacMohan line I started losing interest. Which book of his do you suggest to read?

That is an intriguing line. Didn't the Chinese repudiate the MacMahon Line? Are you aware of the history of the Tawang tract? Just asking; don't answer if you don't feel like it. It's a completely different topic anyway.

 

[scorpionx]

Let me ask my mentor on Kashmir affairs, Shantiveer Kaul, and get back to you.



That is an intriguing line. Didn't the Chinese repudiate the MacMahon Line? Are you aware of the history of the Tawang tract? Just asking; don't answer if you don't feel like it. It's a completely different topic anyway.

Please allow me some time, I will quote you in the relevant thread.

 

[livingdead]

Sure, you're right. You've got the whole thing sewn up, arguing from first principles. One of the reasons why early Europeans who encountered Indian society were uncomfortable in their dealings is the tendency of Indians to go off at a tangent and argue from first principles, totally untainted by empiricism. There was not the slightest attempt at garnering physical evidence or conducting an enquiry into things as they are, rather than contemplating the Indian equivalent of how many angels can dance on the tip of a pin.

OK, let's try again.

You mustn't forget that they have bloody examples of those who picked up the gun.

Incidentally there is precisely that indicator: increased violence against civilians and police. I am surprised that you have not noticed this unpleasant new trend.



I suggest reading M. K. Teng as a corrective.

I am an admirer of Noorani, but he has this lamentable habit of defining his premises perfectly, and then arriving at mysterious and wholly untenable conclusions.

The following Afghan rule was much harsher, and even that was exceeded by the cruelty of the Sikhs (in that multi-cultural state, the most oppressive governors of the Vale were Muslims themselves, according to some sources that I have read). What happened to the stone-throwers? They disappeared. The Afghans sliced off heads, they didn't waste time in sweet reason.

you can always give stats and shut my mouth up... 'oh they did not treat me well this time' ... is not good enough
if ordinary kashmiris get roughed up elsewhere but indian visitors return unmolested, I say we should all learn a bit from 'wahabism'...
They are better a distinguishing between combatants and civilians than our own forces, it seems.