Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[muse]

I wonder whether the "Real" Kashmiris understand it or it is just used by Pakistan trained Jihadi terrorists and their puppets living illegally in Kashmir.

Really now, I'm sure they both understand it, If a Bhooka Naanga Hindustan is a reality, and in some places it is, then better that you be less prickly and more real - the only solution to such a reality is to change it - but seems that for the captive Kashmiri and the Jihadi terrorists and their puppets and their pets and their friends, this is a reality that happily, at least for them, Indian friends are far removed from.

 

[footmarks]

Really now, I'm sure they both understand it, If a Bhooka Naanga Hindustan is a reality, and in some places it is, then better that you be less prickly and more real - the only solution to such a reality is to change it - but seems that for the captive Kashmiri and the Jihadi terrorists and their puppets and their pets and their friends, this is a reality that happily, at least for them, Indian friends are far removed from.

For those who think Pakistan is any better place to live in than "Bhukha Nanga" Hindustan, they are free to go to their "Jaan se Pyaara" Pakistan. Ofcourse it has to be "Jaan" se pyaara, because otherwise nobody will long for going to Pakistan to get Killed.

 

[muse]

Yes, of course, I completely take your point, but it seems that these people wantot bring all their possessions and they possess the land as well, to jan se pyara Pakistan - How might the Indian peoples, after all they are not just one peoples, react to this eventuality? Will they accept the will of the captive Kashmiri and jihadi terrorists and their puppets and friends and pets or will they go into honor and shame mode, making a mockery of "hum hindustani"?

Yes, it's a terrible situation, but if you will get past the way it has been framed - and it is essentially framed realistically, you will find that the problem is indeed very deep and painful - it does not do to say "Jihadi" and imagine that the problem has changed -- and really, I think India will remain "caged" if you will, if it does not resolve this problem to the satisfaction of the captive Kashmiri -- indulge me, let me give you a example close by, Pakistan Duh! Pakistan appears to be unable to help itself, we all know what must be done, we all know this, and yet look at the way it is is being done -- similarly, I think everybody in India know what has to happen, but they have not really internalized the situation and it's solution, and therefore suffer..."outrageous fortune", because all the time they know what must be done and are dithering - won't you agree?

 

[Coltsfan]

Yes, of course, I completely take your point, but it seems that these people wantot bring all their possessions and they possess the land as well, to jan se pyara Pakistan - How might the Indian peoples, after all they are not just one peoples, react to this eventuality? Will they accept the will of the captive Kashmiri and jihadi terrorists and their puppets and friends and pets or will they go into honor and shame mode, making a mockery of "hum hindustani"?

Yes, it's a terrible situation, but if you will get past the way it has been framed - and it is essentially framed realistically, you will find that the problem is indeed very deep and painful - it does not do to say "Jihadi" and imagine that the problem has changed -- and really, I think India will remain "caged" if you will, if it does not resolve this problem to the satisfaction of the captive Kashmiri -- indulge me, let me give you a example close by, Pakistan Duh! Pakistan appears to be unable to help itself, we all know what must be done, we all know this, and yet look at the way it is is being done -- similarly, I think everybody in India know what has to happen, but they have not really internalized the situation and it's solution, and therefore suffer..."outrageous fortune", because all the time they know what must be done and are dithering - won't you agree?

Pakistan's only logic for having kashmir is the muslim majority logic.

But that had been destroyed in 1971 when Pakistan could not even keep the land it was given to it by the Britishers.

It is not just a dispute b/w India and Pakistan, it is also a dispute b/w two very different ideologies for which the respective nations stand for.

If India lets go of Kashmir, we would have let go of every state and province, you very well know that is not going happen.

So in essence, fight for Kashmir has become fight for India and everything it stands for, and we shall take the fight all the way.

The only thing Kashmiris have to choose is whether they want to join rest of India and be part of the development or be pawns at hands of people who want to harm India for their ulterior motives and their desire to "settle" scores for past defeats.

 

[footmarks]

Yes, of course, I completely take your point, but it seems that these people wantot bring all their possessions and they possess the land as well, to jan se pyara Pakistan?

No, the land and all other natural assets belong to the Nation, its a national property, not any individual's. At any point of time, if it is of national concern & well being, Govt can take away land from its holders in lieu of proper monetary/ kind compensation. This is why if oil is discovered, or road/dam is to be built, people living in the area are rehabilitated. Kashmir is a national asset so if some people dont want to live in India, they may go, land will stay.

 

[muse]

If India lets go of Kashmir, we would have let go of every state and province, you very well know that is not going happen.

That's tripe -- India is not a collection of states to be held in captivity. Can Inida be India abnd hold a state captive?? Think that one over, don't give one liners full of emotion - actually think about it, can it be democratic and "secular" holding the only Muslim majority state captive?? Today the world is buying your line because there is the Islamist bugaboo around, but they won't be around for much loinger not in the way they have been - and then?

The case of kashmir is unique because it is the unfinished business of 47. It's unfortunate and it's painful, no one is denying that and it must be especially painful that after making such dramatic movement in creating lives of dignity that the India recalled is Bhooka and Naanga - all that is understood, but please don't give me worn out, unconsidered pathetic positions - All India will unravel - it's great for scaring people into supporting a particular line -- look the US did it and look at what it got them, is this even the America we admired?

So, yes, painful yes, got to be done, and I am saying this because in the end, whether Jihadi or something else captive Kashmiri want out -- but there is something I am really suprised by, none of our Indian interlocutors have said OK, lets see how they like you -- what do you think the response from Pakistan might be?? What has been their track record in assimilating provinces and extending rights and shouldering responsibilities??

 

[Coltsfan]

That's tripe -- India is not a collection of states to be held in captivity. Can Inida be India abnd hold a state captive?? Think that one over, don't give one liners full of emotion - actually think about it, can it be democratic and "secular" holding the only Muslim majority state captive?? Today the world is buying your line because there is the Islamist bugaboo around, but they won't be around for much loinger not in the way they have been - and then?

The case of kashmir is unique because it is the unfinished business of 47. It's unfortunate and it's painful, no one is denying that and it must be especially painful that after making such dramatic movement in creating lives of dignity that the India recalled is Bhooka and Naanga - all that is understood, but please don't give me worn out, unconsidered pathetic positions - All India will unravel - it's great for scaring people into supporting a particular line -- look the US did it and look at what it got them, is this even the America we admired?

So, yes, painful yes, got to be done, and I am saying this because in the end, whether Jihadi or something else captive Kashmiri want out -- but there is something I am really suprised by, none of our Indian interlocutors have said OK, lets see how they like you -- what do you think the response from Pakistan might be?? What has been their track record in assimilating provinces and extending rights and shouldering responsibilities??

Well you called my emotional and genuine reasoning for kashmir to be with India as "tripe", so here are the practical and pragmatic reason that you would understand.

Kashmir has an invaluable strategic and military importance for India.

So, I have presented you with both emotional and pragmatic view points why India shall not do away with kashmir.

 

[footmarks]

That's tripe -- India is not a collection of states to be held in captivity. Can Inida be India abnd hold a state captive?? Think that one over, don't give one liners full of emotion - actually think about it, can it be democratic and "secular" holding the only Muslim majority state captive?? Today the world is buying your line because there is the Islamist bugaboo around, but they won't be around for much loinger not in the way they have been - and then?

The idea of India is something people living in a country made on religious grounds wont understand. India does not endorse nor recognize any religion based differentiation of geography. Kashmir is a muslim majority state doesnt mean that we will detach it from India. ANd being a muslim majority state CERTAINLY does not mean that it belong to Pakistan. All Pakistani may be muslims but all muslims are not Pakistani.

 

[nivas]

Kashmir has an invaluable strategic and military importance for India.

This is exactly one of the main reasons why both India want to hold on to its Kashmir and Pakistan wants the whole of Kashmir.

Ans water resources is the other one.

The issue of people - Kashmiris comes as a distant third after the above two reasons.

 

[muse]

Kashmir has an invaluable strategic and military importance for India.

Actually, this too is a canard - because it's so called "invaluable strategic and military importance" is predicated on the idea of hostilities with Pakistan and China - otherwise, trapping 700,000 armed Indian personnel is not what anybody in their right mind would call invaluable strategic importance" unless one were looking at this development through the eyes of a Pakistani military strategist.

See, the way in which you are looking at this betrays a fixation with the past - a past in which India is caged -- you may not like the word but I strongly encourage you to consider the picture it paints.

India cannot emerge, will not take it's rightful place, unless it is at peace with Pakistan - I know that many people will find this unacceptable because it's uncomfortable and it makes them think - add to this border problems with China -- and it can get worse, long term destabilization, the Naxal movement is more dangerous than the issue of captive Kashmir.

In order to bring about a strategic reframing - India cannot have problems with Pakistan, in fact, Pakistan must be turned in to a partner which protects and guarantees the North West and China similarly which guarantees the North and the North East and India does the same for them.

But this may be too radical for you as yet to consider, however, I think these kinds of ideas must be explored if India is to escape it's cage.

 

[footmarks]

Actually, this too is a canard - because it's so called "invaluable strategic and military importance" is predicated on the idea of hostilities with Pakistan and China - otherwise, trapping 700,000 armed Indian personnel is not what anybody in their right mind would call invaluable strategic importance" unless one were looking at this development through the eyes of a Pakistani military strategist.

See, the way in which you are looking at this betrays a fixation with the past - a past in which India is caged -- you may not like the word but I strongly encourage you to consider the picture it paints.

India cannot emerge, will not take it's rightful place, unless it is at peace with Pakistan - I know that many people will find this unacceptable because it's uncomfortable and it makes them think - add to this border problems with China -- and it can get worse, long term destabilization, the Naxal movement is more dangerous than the issue of captive Kashmir.

In order to bring about a strategic reframing - India cannot have problems with Pakistan, in fact, Pakistan must be turned in to a partner which protects and guarantees the North West and China similarly which guarantees the North and the North East and India does the same for them.

But this may be too radical for you as yet to consider, however, I think these kinds of ideas must be explored if India is to escape it's cage.

Pakistan was created on the premise that Muslims cant co exist with Hindu majority, and those who believed in this false premise, went to Pakistan during partition. Sadly, Pakistan can not change its geographical location (nor can India) so it has to learn to co-exist with India. Its not us who are at fault, its the founders of Pakistan who are.

India DO NOT have problems with Pakistan, India IS the problem with Pakistan. You just cant believe that two nations, one with all imperfections one can fathom and other made for perfection, can grow (actually only one is growing) in such a stark contrast to what was expected. Pakistan was supposed to be a dreamland, an ideal for Muslims & perfect display of preachings of Islam put on practise to govern its citizens. And India was supposed to crumble under its own weight of drastic dis-similarities based on language, religion, region, caste, and what not. And you still believe that the incredible growth story that India is charting is a false propoganda,that it is impossible, while your own dream house is on fire.

You put all the blame of your failures on us, as you see us as enemies with whom you can not make friends.

 

[muse]

You put all the blame of your failures on us, as you see us as enemies with whom you can not make friends.

I don't think anywhere in my post can you find even one such a reference - so I think this post rather unfair.

Pakistan, you are exactly right, has failed in it's original promise, but this is not a solution to India's problem - Bhooka Naanga Hindustan, Jan se Pyara Pakistan

Look, I'm not suggesting you are not entitled to your position, but I do ask that you at least create a cogent argument and present a position that deals with the problem at hand, which is Bhooka Naanga.

By all means say Pakistan and it's founders are the fountain of evil, it may be emotionally satisfying - but it still leaves you with the Bhooka Naanga problem, doesn't it ? So why not deal with that problem?

 

[indianpatriot]

well even if India is "bhooka nanga" the country provides cutting edge education,intellect,opportunities and healthcare to make Kashmiris behave like citizens!!!!

what Pakistan has on offer is a failed democracy and failed social structure and rising radicalism....Kashjmir will regret if it leaves India!!!

 

[muse]

Finally, at least one Indian came forward to say the obvious.

 

[foxbat]

Easy, easy - I just asked you a simple question -- seems to me that you would all agree that Indians speak English, regardless of whether you live in the South North East or West, so why such hostility to speaking Urdu or Hindi?

In my view, commonality of English has also to do with that being a commonly used language across the western world where India has highest % of immigration and trade.