Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[Abu Zolfiqar]

The usage of force is also a factor you should consider...
The moderates like the hurriyat...syed gillani and all did not seek refuge in Pakistan the way Dalai Lama did...

precisely! Thanks for further proving my point. Mr. Geelani obviously knows that running away to either side would exacerbate the problems and lower his credibility

the people of Kashmir (both sides) beckon for him it seems

The Kashmiris get fired upon when they break curfews....and revert to stone-pelting....personally I do not support the usage of brutal force at all specially in an area that is under constant global scrutiny.

if you break into my house and I resist, and you open fire on me, destroy my furniture and personal effects, and have the nerve to impose your will on me in the sanctity of my own home then you have added insult to injury (or injury to insult?)

I won't stand idly. I will fight back. I will resist beyond even my God-given capacity.

Tibet...junnnagadh...hyderabad...balochistan...palestine...the case of the uighurs...chechenya...texas...ireland...
are unresolved disputes of a similar kind...

nope.....only Falasteen and Kashmir are unresolved disputes. Rest are not. Not sure who would tell you otherwise.

you'd want to go into the intricate details and try to fid difference...you'd defeat my argument...that however is not my point...

 

[RollingStones]

Openly lying on a forum get you no where except proving your ignorance.








Look again, the topic is "pro freedom insurgents VS Indian army, how does China came into the pictures unless you are intended to troll and flame? and you still wondering why i responsed to your post?

Who give a damn what GOI and some idiots think or do if my country was not being drag into a thread thats completely unrelated?

Don't even get me started regarding your so-called freedom of speech, tell that to your millions of "Untouchables" whom being discriminated and oppressed by your most evil caste-system on the planet period. Do not lecture me what i should or not do, perhaps the last thing i need is an advice from a proud citizen of h..H... period.

Citing examples from similar situations, drawing analogies, contrasting events are all part of good debating. In this case, China has been "dragged" in to analyze and contrast the situations. There is nothing wrong with that, in my opinion, as long as the central theme still stays on the topic. That's what the debaters have done here.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

The problem is that as long as Pakistan has its own problems of dacoits in government and an Army that is solely for the purpose of defence, none of these problems will be solved... At the end of the day the Indians have a point... Why is it that Pakistan is unable to persuade its friend China to look after its Muslim citizens... The reason is simple... Pakistan cant even look after its own Muslim citizens in the first place...

This would obviously change if Pakistan have people with brains and vision in power... The friendship with China can be improved even further and using that friendship and ties a safe state of affairs be ensured for Muslims in China...

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

The problem is that as long as Pakistan has its own problems of dacoits in government and an Army that is solely for the purpose of defence, none of these problems will be solved... At the end of the day the Indians have a point... Why is it that Pakistan is unable to persuade its friend China to look after its Muslim citizens... The reason is simple... Pakistan cant even look after its own Muslim citizens in the first place...

i'm sorry, i can't subscribe to that (except for your first sentence)

This would obviously change if Pakistan have people with brains and vision in power... The friendship with China can be improved even further and using that friendship and ties a safe state of affairs be ensured for Muslims in China...

in one way or another, it's already been going on for some years now....JI sent delegation to quell the disturbance in Xinjiang and it seems to have been effective. I personally couldn't care less for JI, but it may be one of the most productive things they've ever done, when they aren't busy shouting slogans and remaining silent when is most convenient and suitable for them.

my own views though, based on limited information I know



by the way, what has this got to do with Kashmiri freedom fighters in the internationally recognized disputed territory?

 

[paritosh]

precisely! Thanks for further proving my point. Mr. Geelani obviously knows that running away to either side would exacerbate the problems and lower his credibility

the people of Kashmir (both sides) beckon for him it seems

ok...there wasn't a death warrant on the heads of the leaders of the Hurriyat last time I checked...Dalai Lama was a wanted man when he made is escape into India...
the point is that the leaders of Hurriyat have never been stopped from harping on how India is bad for Kashmir...they have never been stopped from writing and using democratic ways of showing public support for their causes...however when their rallies turn into gatherings of stone-pelters who damage civic property...the leaders who incite such and such get arrested...

if you break into my house and I resist, and you open fire on me, destroy my furniture and personal effects, and have the nerve to impose your will on me in the sanctity of my own home then you have added insult to injury (or injury to insult?)

I won't stand idly. I will fight back. I will resist beyond even my God-given capacity.

I would ask you humbly not to put your perspective of things over mine...
it's funny reading the above mentioned scenario brought Kargill and '65 to my mind...you and I have been programmed to see things our own separate way...a middle path looks like the only profittable yet distant solution.

nope.....only Falasteen and Kashmir are unresolved disputes. Rest are not. Not sure who would tell you otherwise.

it's again a matter of perspective.
what about the Uighur problem and the Chechen problem?
Can it be said with certainty that the people there don't want accession?
in the case of texas...time made all the resentment disappear...in the regions I mentioned...'peace' was achieved using brute force and violence...Kashmir and our conduct with the issue is a whole lot better.

no point getting/giving heart-burns over it all...I see your point...can't deny that you are right in your way...but see that there is another equally believable alter-perspective that I put my faith in.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Bro Abu Zulfiqar... I was actually going to mention this second point... The example of JI...

As for my first point... what I mean to say is that just the fact we have dacoits in our government it means that nothing is right with our country... Our people are actually the best but because they have been economically so crippled that it brings out the worse in them... We have no lack of talent, no lack of resources yet we continue to be poor and in an unjust mess in our country... So I am mentioning the problems that we face in our country...

As for what it has to do with Kashmir... Perhaps nothing... but we should tell our Indian friends here that we are no bigots... If even a Hindu is wronged in any part of the world we will be supporting him too... regardless of their religion...

Hope that explains my point better

 

[justanobserver]

ok...there wasn't a death warrant on the heads of the leaders of the Hurriyat last time I checked...Dalai Lama was a wanted man when he made is escape into India...
the point is that the leaders of Hurriyat have never been stopped from harping on how India is bad for Kashmir...they have never been stopped from writing and using democratic ways of showing public support for their causes...however when their rallies turn into gatherings of stone-pelters who damage civic property...the leaders who incite such and such get arrested...

Sometimes GoI gets on my nerves

Geelani has been diagnosed with renal cancer, and has been recommended by doctors to go overseas for treatment. After Prime Minister Manmohan Singh intervened, Indian government agencies returned Geelani's passport to his son.[12] His passport was seized in 1981 due to accusations of "anti-India" activities, and with the exception of his Hajj pilgrimage in 2006, he has not been allowed to leave India.[13]

During a regular check-up doctors discovered that Geelani's "only kidney has developed malignancy".[14] An infection forced doctors, four years ago, to remove his left kidney. Although the cancer was in its early stages, it was life threatening, and he needed to have surgery. Following the advice of his doctors at Apollo Hospital, Geelani was set to travel to either the UK or the USA for specialized treatment.[15] However his request for a visa was turned down by the Americans, and as his health deteriorated he went to Mumbai for surgery. Doctors at the Tata Memorial Hospital successfully performed surgery on his kidney.[16] The reason given by the U.S. for turning down Geelani's request for a visa was, that he has" failed to renounce violence". This decision was declared a violation of his human rights by his supporters and family.[17].

The bloody hypocrite

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Paritosh... Cmon man... You and I and everyone knows that Bharat has hundreds of thousands of armed forces inside Kashmir... If there were such freedom for Muslims in that region what was Indian Army doing there?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

It is sad to know that a foreigner has to counsel you on your country's stand. Pakistan govt stand is that freedom from India can only be interpreted as accession to Pakistan as it has agreed to UN resolution regarding this. From the horse's mouth-

dont twist the reality my dear. its the right of self determination. whether they want to be totally indipendent , part of Pakistan or India (doesnt look like that)

its that right to decide like other states which was stolen from Kashmiris and a forced occupation of India which has resulted in a 60+ year old struggle of the kashmiris.

 

[paritosh]

Paritosh... Cmon man... You and I and everyone knows that Bharat has hundreds of thousands of armed forces inside Kashmir... If there were such freedom for Muslims in that region what was Indian Army doing there?

arguably around 300,000 troops.....IA+paras...
There was a very serious threat from armed insurgents...the mortality ratio was 1:2 in our favor...which is one of the poorest mortality ratios in the world....just to abstain violence from the insurgents we needed a massive troop supply-chain...the fact that the rise in the number of troops in Kashmir was in proportion to the rise in the number of insurgency...testifies why the army is there....
This problem of Kashmir is seen as a problem based on religion only by Pakistan...
Do you support the need for self-governance...or do you support the need for self-governance only when it is based on a particular religion...?
Whatever happens in KAshmir brings a bad taste in my mouth too bro...but there are unpalatable things that need to be accepted before we talk of resolution...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Paritosh.

The insurgents came after the Indian Troops as far as I remember...

anyway... As for your other question... Perhaps you would understand considering your avatar of Che...

Does it really matter who is administering the political affairs in a communist country regardless of what they may believe personally... Ultimately systems of government come with the system and mode of economics that is imposed on people... India (like Pakistan) is a Capitalist and Secular state... it suffers from the same problems that the rest of developing countries suffer from... Massive poverty and despite abundance of resources, corruption/uneducation/unemployment etc...

I believe that if you give people a decent life... Value them as citizens by letting them contribute to the good of society... stop taxing them left right and centre, provide education and health services as well as durable and robust infrastructure for living... then it does nt really matter who is in power at the end of the day... It is for this reason that I believe that nationalist kashmiri movements miss the mark completely and pro Pakistan movements miss the point partially ... What people need is a completely different system of governance and economics... Unless we show the world that example, sadly as a Pakistani I have nothing to offer the Indians or Kashmiris and they in return have nothing to offer anyone either...

However and yes this is important... India must treat all Muslims with respect and care at all times... If India had managed to do that to Kashmiris they would have long forgotten about Pakistan and accepted their Indian nationality... This has obviously not happened... and I think India considering the popularity of Fascist Hindu political parties will fail to deliver such protection of Muslims...

For this reason alone Pakistan has all the right to intervene to protect the Muslims of India... even if our act is not correct yet... but true victory will only come when we get our act right... establish social and economic justice in our land... I m sure once we set an example, even many Indians would want to live happily with us regardless of their religion, beliefs...

Hope that helps...

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

ok...there wasn't a death warrant on the heads of the leaders of the Hurriyat last time I checked...Dalai Lama was a wanted man when he made is escape into India...
the point is that the leaders of Hurriyat have never been stopped from harping on how India is bad for Kashmir...they have never been stopped from writing and using democratic ways of showing public support for their causes...however when their rallies turn into gatherings of stone-pelters who damage civic property...the leaders who incite such and such get arrested...

Death warrant is all the more reason to stay behind, if he really is to stand by his ''cause’’


By the way, if what you said were true then I wonder why there is a media blackout. Is Kashmir –despite how militarized it is --even a war-zone?

I would ask you humbly not to put your perspective of things over mine...
it's funny reading the above mentioned scenario brought Kargill and '65 to my mind...you and I have been programmed to see things our own separate way...a middle path looks like the only profittable yet distant solution.

Quite…..I personally have no regrets over Kargil or 65; I just wish the planning and synergy were greater, and the leaders didn’t succumb to external pressure. I also wish we were more self-sufficient in those days, though luckily now we are moving in right directions in that regard.

i do hope for a solution though, one that suits Kashmiris (regardless of Pakistani or indian views)

it's again a matter of perspective.
what about the Uighur problem and the Chechen problem?

Latter isn’t much of an issue nowdays; At least from what I can tell. Chechna still is restive, as are some other semi-autonomous areas. I lost respect for the Chechnya ‘’resistance’’ after what they did to over 300 children at a school in Beslan. Besides, it isn’t even my fight or my worry. If you look at things on the aggregate, seems that the violence is down when compared to early-mid 1990s

Can it be said with certainty that the people there don't want accession?

I can’t answer that with full confidence, because I’m less familiar with the ground realities there

in the case of texas...time made all the resentment disappear...

No, it still exists; but the artificial solution was to allow them to run casinos, drink themselves to death, and keep them on un-taxed ''plantations’’ (I’m assuming you are referring to ''los indigenas’’

no point getting/giving heart-burns over it all...I see your point...can't deny that you are right in your way...but see that there is another equally believable alter-perspective that I put my faith in.

I don’t get heart-burn, I am totally numb and free of emotion

 

[MYSTIC]

Openly lying on a forum get you no where except proving your ignorance.

Look again, the topic is "pro freedom insurgents VS Indian army, how does China came into the pictures unless you are intended to troll and flame? and you still wondering why i responsed to your post?

Who give a damn what GOI and some idiots think or do if my country was not being drag into a thread thats completely unrelated?

Don't even get me started regarding your so-called freedom of speech, tell that to your millions of "Untouchables" whom being discriminated and oppressed by your most evil caste-system on the planet period. Do not lecture me what i should or not do, perhaps the last thing i need is an advice from a proud citizen of h..H... period.

Really interesting how you co-relate freedom of speech with untouchability. Tells a lot about your debating skills....

Sorry I forgot, you are not allowed to debate. Stop trolling.

 

[MYSTIC]

Paritosh.

The insurgents came after the Indian Troops as far as I remember...

anyway... As for your other question... Perhaps you would understand considering your avatar of Che...

Does it really matter who is administering the political affairs in a communist country regardless of what they may believe personally... Ultimately systems of government come with the system and mode of economics that is imposed on people... India (like Pakistan) is a Capitalist and Secular state... it suffers from the same problems that the rest of developing countries suffer from... Massive poverty and despite abundance of resources, corruption/uneducation/unemployment etc...

I believe that if you give people a decent life... Value them as citizens by letting them contribute to the good of society... stop taxing them left right and centre, provide education and health services as well as durable and robust infrastructure for living... then it does nt really matter who is in power at the end of the day... It is for this reason that I believe that nationalist kashmiri movements miss the mark completely and pro Pakistan movements miss the point partially ... What people need is a completely different system of governance and economics... Unless we show the world that example, sadly as a Pakistani I have nothing to offer the Indians or Kashmiris and they in return have nothing to offer anyone either...

However and yes this is important... India must treat all Muslims with respect and care at all times... If India had managed to do that to Kashmiris they would have long forgotten about Pakistan and accepted their Indian nationality... This has obviously not happened... and I think India considering the popularity of Fascist Hindu political parties will fail to deliver such protection of Muslims...

For this reason alone Pakistan has all the right to intervene to protect the Muslims of India... even if our act is not correct yet... but true victory will only come when we get our act right... establish social and economic justice in our land... I m sure once we set an example, even many Indians would want to live happily with us regardless of their religion, beliefs...

Hope that helps...

I agree with your post except for the bolded parts.

Do you think whatever has happened in Kashmir is all India's fault? Would Kashmir be burning if Pakistan did not breed the freedom struggle?

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

I don't believe a word of it, chances are he's another Kashmiri leader whom the Indian Army jail when they need a scape-goat. What are the chances of one hiding out in Sringar (of all places)?