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Kargil was a poor test of India's air warfare capability

Indian newspapers and their public believe--or say they believe--that the conflict in Dras-Kargil last year was a military victory for India. In fact, it was a war 'won' by briefings and a slavishly supportive media. The Indian public wanted to be assured of 'victory,' and every effort was made to provide that assurance. Kargil was disastrous for Pakistan in worldwide political terms, and was an important public relations coup for the Indian government, both internally (in the run-up to the election), and internationally. But militarily it was a shambles for India whose brave but ill-prepared soldiers suffered gravely and would have sustained even heavier casualties had the conflict continued. The prime minister of Pakistan was ordered by the president of the United States to withdraw his troops from a successful military operation and this was done in time to save the Vajpayee government from the wave of criticism that would have swamped it had the confrontation not been stopped.

Source: "War Drums are Beating" Brian Cloughley.

Militarily a shambles for India? What kinda utter bullsh!t is this? Brian Cloughley who wrote this junk is a 'chamcha' of the Pakistani Army whose biased reporting is legendary. He has been dined and entertained in Pakistani officers’ messes to write books on the History of the Pakistani Army.

Do you even know how many Pakistani soldiers were killed in one of the most ill conceived operations by Mush and Co? According to numbers stated by Nawaz Sharif there were over 4,000 fatalities. His PML (N) party in its "white paper" on the war mentioned that more than 3,000 Mujahideens, officers and soldiers were killed. Another major Pakistani political party, the Pakistan Peoples Party, also says that "thousands" of soldiers and irregulars died. Indian estimates stand at 1,042 Pakistani soldiers killed.

So, if Pakistan was the superman that vanquished Indian forces, then why so many casualties?

Take a peek here at the facts from none other than General Jamshed Gulzar Kiani himself, a former Director-General of the Pakistan Army's Military Intelligence and the commander of X Corps, on the Pakistani rout in Kargil that forced Nawaz Sharif to run to the USA for a ceasefire because as he said, “Fauj ki izzat ka sawaal hai!”


So friend Windjammer, do some research yourself before copy/pasting baloney, as is your habit! You would rather trust the crap written by that scatterbrain Brian Cloughley than your own General who is a thorough military professional and knows his beans!
 
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Here is more from our friend Lambeth:

Kargil war secret: IAF used 'jugaad' - Hindustan Times

The Indian Air Force's best kept secret is out: Its stellar role in the Kargil victory 13 years ago had as much to do with its pilots and planes as that great Indian trick, jugaad.

Pilots flew real-time missions with hand-held GPS sets to home in on high-altitude targets, usually tiny contingents of Pakistanis occupying Indian positions. And its aces used hand-held video cameras to record bombing runs for post-op analysis back at the base.

The IAF's "innovative use of airpower (was) one of the excellent features of the Kargil operations", says a new study of the war by Benjamin Lambeth, an airpower historian, released on Thursday.

"A senior officer told me there was a word for these innovations - jugaad," said Lambeth.

The challenge for the IAF in Kargil was unprecedented. No air force had ever been tasked to bomb targets at elevations of 14,000 to 18,000 ft, against a backdrop that made spotting impossible. To top it, there were instructions to not cross the LoC.
A serving IAF pilot, who did not want to be identified, said, "We did use hand-held commercial GPS units, except they were not really hand-held…They were fixed in front, in a bracket."

So, what other jugaad did the IAF do?

Shooting up an avalanche, says Lambeth.

Pilots knew if you couldn't bomb dispersed enemy soldiers, you could hit them with something they least expected: shooting on a mountain side triggered an avalanche. Snow came tumbling down, in a rushing sweep.

There is more. Kargil was just the start. Or was it?



So our friend windy, try to read beyond the headline in your next attempt to forage through the net for an anti india article. Sometimes this happens - despite the title, the rest of the article would be all praise for your enemy. That's what happens when you blindly use ctrl-c + ctrl-v. You end up scoring self goals.

The icing on the cake was when you questioned the credibility of the source you yourself posted. I'm sure you must be desperately looking for some material about point 5353 now. Happy hunting! :wave:
 
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Militarily a shambles for India? What kinda utter bullsh!t is this? Brian Cloughley who wrote this junk is a 'chamcha' of the Pakistani Army whose biased reporting is legendary. He has been dined and entertained in Pakistani officers’ messes to write books on the History of the Pakistani Army.

Do you even know how many Pakistani soldiers were killed in one of the most ill conceived operations by Mush and Co? According to numbers stated by Nawaz Sharif there were over 4,000 fatalities. His PML (N) party in its "white paper" on the war mentioned that more than 3,000 Mujahideens, officers and soldiers were killed. Another major Pakistani political party, the Pakistan Peoples Party, also says that "thousands" of soldiers and irregulars died. Indian estimates stand at 1,042 Pakistani soldiers killed.

So, if Pakistan was the superman that vanquished Indian forces, then why so many casualties?

Take a peek here at the facts from none other than General Jamshed Gulzar Kiani himself, a former Director-General of the Pakistan Army's Military Intelligence and the commander of X Corps, on the Pakistani rout in Kargil that forced Nawaz Sharif to run to the USA for a ceasefire because as he said, “Fauj ki izzat ka sawaal hai!”


So friend Windjammer, do some research yourself before copy/pasting baloney, as is your habit!


woow... never knew that anti-musharraf undercurrent was so strong even in military circles..

Damn, this DGMI just puts hot water on musharraf's theory !!! :woot:

I must say one thing, Musharraf was a blemish on PA as a brigadier when he lost Siachen and he was a disaster as a Gen of PA..
 
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Busy in cherry picking.He will surely post point 5353 :lol:

Save your BS for another day, the site at this end was down most of yesterday and even today it's kind of slow running.......now what shall we talk about..... it seems the Indians are getting all frivolous by this article, suddenly what their own media exposed is non relevant and what some kicked out PM or some other wannabes said has become more credible. Just like to know if any of these characters were on the ground or participated in the war, unlike the Indian commanders in the following videos. Wouldn't be surprised if after the disclosures made by Indian Express and Tehlka.com, the words of Indian officers are also disqualified by you Indians, since as Brian Cloughly said, Indians wanted to be assured of a victory and the media did just that.

Points to note in the video...Losses equalled any war and the revelations are just the tip of iceberg.




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Save your BS for another day, the site at this end was down most of yesterday and even today it's kind of slow running.......now what shall we talk about..... it seems the Indians are getting all frivolous by this article, suddenly what their own media exposed is non relevant and what some kicked out PM or some other wannabes said has become more credible. Just like to know if any of these characters were on the ground or participated in the war, unlike the Indian commanders in the following videos. Wouldn't be surprised if after the disclosures made by Indian Express and Tehlka.com, the words of Indian officers are also disqualified by you Indians, since as Brian Cloughly said, Indians wanted to be assured of a victory and the media did just that.

Just wondering about the editing of the report, well I posted the rest of it... have a read


As far as kargil is concerned, every Indian thinks it was disappointing for the army. It was perfect opportunity to have rolled down the armor down Pakistan's throat, hence a missed chance.

About pakistans involvement, or the lack of it as claimed by your great commanders. Their blunder is very well documented
 
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@Poster....

Even it was poor, we are far better to take on Pak at any ground and any time and ensure a victory..there is no comparison as such....may be you can compare urself with Afghan or Bangladesh...

@Writer
guess, the context was, if both Pak and China create situations like this in future, India should do better than what it did during Kargil....and as my fellow countrymen have said, we have taken quite sufficient measures to improve our capability...so, no point in going a decade back and discuss the capability!
 
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Just wondering about the editing of the report, well I posted the rest of it... have a read


As far as kargil is concerned, every Indian thinks it was disappointing for the army. It was perfect opportunity to have rolled down the armor down Pakistan's throat, hence a missed chance.


About pakistans involvement, or the lack of it as claimed by your great commanders. Their blunder is very well documented

Wonder, Where would that tall claim stand today, when after a decade so many skeletons are rattling in the cupboards......Pakistan still occupies strategic heights.....Indian army falsified Kargil records etc......it can open a can of worms. !!
 
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@Poster....

Even it was poor, we are far better to take on Pak at any ground and any time and ensure a victory..there is no comparison as such....may be you can compare urself with Afghan or Bangladesh...

Dreams don't cost a dime, there is a whole group of dream warriors on this site....jump right in and live the fantasy world. :D
 
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Inspite of the thousands of PA IDs which we have in possession still they think PA was not involved.. maybe to cover their ineptness..



aww man... WindJammer got owned in this thread.. :lol:

first he comes with a half baked theory and then get his *** whopped :lol:

ab usko maaf kar do yaar ... chappal se maroge kya ? :argh:
 
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Wonder, Where would that tall claim stand today, when after a decade so many skeletons are rattling in the cupboards......Pakistan still occupies strategic heights.....Indian army falsified Kargil records etc......it can open a can of worms. !!

Funny guy. The PA occupied some heights, and the vacated them on the orders of the American Master IF Mr.BeeCluff is to be believed! While the Indian Army was just watching the telly.

Same is the case Siachen area below the Saltoro Ridge occupied by India, hence the grave concern about getting smothered by avalanches. That is the real reason for wanting to vacate Siachen.

About Lt.Gen. Krishan Pal the initial occupation of the vacant Indian posts "happened during his watch", so he has an axe to grind. But you have not listened to or understood exactly what he is saying.

About Brig. Singh; his grouse is different. He first raised the "Red-Flag" about the intruders, which his superiors including Gen.Krishan Pal in Northern Command FAILED to appreciate. That his appreciation was suppressed and even sought to be altered by his higher command i.e. Krishan Pal is what Brig. Singh has been talking about all the time. So it is easy to understand what level of standing Krishan Pal has. People will be well-advised to read/see and understand before posting anything like chronic "Quick-Gun Murugans".

In short Gen.Krishan Pal comes out as shakily as Maj.Gen.Javed Hasan then Commander Force Command Northern Areas who actually commanded the Op. or Lt. Gen. Mehmud Ahmed then Commander 10 Corps who made that hal-baked plan. Of course Gen. Parvez Musharraf whose "brain-wave" was seminal to the mis-adventure cannot be overlooked!
In the words of then Director Air Operations,PAF; Air Cmde. Kaiser Tufail the plan was so full of holes to be patently unworkable, in his words:

In an effort to keep the plan secret, which was thought to be the key to its successful initiation, the Army trio took no one into confidence, neither its own operational commanders nor the heads of the other services. This, regrettably, resulted in a closed-loop thought process which engendered a string of oversights and failures:
• Failure to grasp the wider military and diplomatic ramifications of a limited tactical operation that had the potential of creating major strategic effects.
• Failure to correctly visualise the response of a powerful enemy to what was, in effect, a major blow in a disputed sector.
• Failure to spell out the specific aim to field commanders, who acted on their own to needlessly capture territory and expand the scope of the operation to unmanageable levels.
• Failure to appreciate the inability of the Army officers to evaluate the capabilities and limitations of an Air Force.
• Failure to coordinate contingency plans at the tri-services level.
The flaws in the Kargil Plan that led to these failures were almost palpable and, could not have escaped even a layman’s attention during a cursory examination.


which in Kaiser Tufail's own words only led to this:
Lives and honour lost in Kargil is another matter.

Where does the Indian Army stand post-Kargil? Back in the posts where they used to be.
However, it is diplomatically and strategically that India made the biggest gains post-Kargil. Since 1947, India had to struggle with the "baggage of hyphenation" with Pakistan; because for some peculiar reasons Pakistan was some-how seen as some kind of (maybe smaller) sibling of India. So in the world's eyes Pakistan had to be some-way or the other equated or given parity with India. That concept was just ground into the dust finally after Kargil.

For Example- How on Earth did India get the '123 Agreement' or Civilian Nuclear Deal?
Actually, in my view: India ought to thank Musharraf and the few odd Jernails of the PA for "cooking up the Kargil Stew"!!! Though sadly, those left in the stew-pot of the Kargil heights were only the hapless soldiers of the NLI and a few from the SSG.
 
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Inspite of the thousands of PA IDs which we have in possession still they think PA was not involved.. maybe to cover their ineptness..



aww man... WindJammer got owned in this thread.. :lol:

first he comes with a half baked theory and then get his *** whopped :lol:

ab usko maaf kar do yaar ... chappal se maroge kya ? :argh:

The damn forum is full of Delhi drama queens,...
Abey, chaar anna ki murghi, bara anna ka masala ....baat key saath apni zaat aur auqat bi yaad rakho.
 
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The damn forum is full of Delhi drama queens,...
Abey, chaar anna ki murghi, bara anna ka masala ....baat key saath apni zaat aur auqat bi yaad rakho.

LO Ji, the facts and arguments being presented here on this thread, only gets a recipe for tandoori chicken in response!!

And even that Murgi recipe; like the Musharraf Kargil Plan cannot work.
Imagine: chaar anna ki murghi, bara anna ka masala ....
Masala zyada aur Murgi Kam? Sounds just like the Masala-laden Posts. :)
 
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