Kargil was a poor test of India's air warfare capability

[janon]

True, the kargil war exposed our lack of precision bombing capability. Only the mirages could perform that role. Today the MKIs, mirages and mig 29 UPG can all do that role (and we have hundreds of these), and every aircraft inducted into the IAF in future will be able to do that.

True, there was very little co-ordination between the Indian army and the IAF during the kargil war. But we were still better off than the enemy, because the PAF didn't even know there was a war going on until they watched Indian news channels. Heck, their prime minister himself didn't know that his country was at war, until his Indian counterpart told him. It was a purely army misadventure.

On our part, in the next decade, we learnt from our mistakes and have done remarkably well in addressing them. From upgrading the bulk of our aircrafts into mutlirole platforms with precision strike capability, to evolving joint operations doctrines that are fine tuned every year through joint exercises.

Both the air force and the army were handicapped due to the constraints imposed by the government. The army was not permitted to launch cross border strikes to lay a siege on the intruders, and the air force was not allowed to conduct interdiction of their supply lines to disrupt their logistics. Yet, despite these constraints, they did manage to evict every single intruder. And if pakistan tries anything like this in future, their intruders (armymen or mujahideen or NLI or jihadis or non-state actors or terrorists or whatever they choose to call them next time) will be obliterated purely by the IAF, with no need for the army's involvement. They know that, which is why they won't ever try it again.

So apart from thwarting pakistan's attempt to take kashmir, our forces also ensured that they won't dare to attempt t again. That's what I call a decisive strategic voctory.

It amuses me when some pakistanis here still think they were victorious, or that they achieved something with that misadventure. They came with the aim of taking kashmir, and ended up wthdrawing completely and putting a few men on point 5353 or whatever. Intruding into enemy territory and withdrawing at record speeds when counter-attacked, and being too ashamed to even admit participation is a victory in some people's minds.

 

[Windjammer]

Why would we do that? Din't you read the article you posted, below two lines says it all, why there is no reason for us to weep.

"....Despite the happy ending of the Kargil experience for India,...

Happy ending, since Pakistan under US pressure withdrew from the area.

...The Kargil war, in which India emerged victorious over Pakistan.

According to and in the words of TOI.

 

[Doctor Death]

Happy ending, since Pakistan under US pressure withdrew from the area.


According to and in the words of TOI.

Both the Indian Army and the IAF were essential players in a genuinely joint counteroffensive. It would be hard to deem either as having been the more pivotal contributor toward determining the ultimate victory for India’s forces.91 To be sure, from a simple weight-of-effort perspective, 15 Corps artillery was the main source of direct fire support throughout the fighting, and massive barrages of it provided sustained suppressive cover under which Indian infantry teams eventually moved up the daunting terrain to recapture their former posts. In all, 15 Corps committed 15 artillery regiments and more than 300 artillery pieces to what one account called “one of the most bitterly fought mountain battles of all times.”92 Throughout the campaign, they expended more than 250,000 rounds of ammunition in a sustained laydown of fire on a scale not seen anywhere in the world since World War II.

Airpower at 18,000
These are the words of the CIA analyst.

@members
Please visit this thread:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/208907-ex-cia-officer-iaf-strike-nlis-munto-dhalo-depot.html

 

[KRAIT]

There is already a thread on Kargil with too much bashing of both the countries and lots of trolling. What you guys are about to post may be found there. Topic of discussion is lessons learned and the trajectory of modernization. Stick to it. Its an important topic which we want experts to comment on. Ruining it will keep them away.

Cheers.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

WASHINGTON: Kargil conflict was a "poor test" of India's air warfare capability, a prominent US thinktank has said, warning that with threats of future wars with Pakistan and China persisting, Indian defence establishment has to prepare accordingly.

"Despite the happy ending of the Kargil experience for India, the IAF's fighter pilots were restricted in their operations due to myriad challenges specific to this campaign. They were thus consigned to do what they could rather than what they might have done if they had more room for manoeuvre," said the think-tank in a report released yesterday.

The Kargil war, in which India emerged victorious over Pakistan, the 70-page report titles "Airpower At 18,000': the Indian Air Force in the Kargil War' further brought to light the initial near-total lack of transparency and open communication between Indian Army's top leaders and the IAF.

The report by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace said the covert Pakistani intrusion into Jammu and Kashmir had exposed a gaping hole in India's nationwide real-time intelligence.

"On a strategic level, the Kargil War vividly demonstrated that a stable bilateral nuclear deterrence relationship can markedly inhibit such regional conflicts in intensity and scale — if not preclude them altogether," it said.

"In the absence of the nuclear stabilizing factor, those flash points could erupt into open-ended conventional showdowns for the highest stakes. But the Kargil War also demonstrated that nuclear deterrence is not a panacea," the report said.

It said the possibility of future conventional wars of major consequence along India's borders with Pakistan and China persists, and the Indian defence establishment must plan and prepare accordingly.

The Times of India - Indian Newspapers in English Language from six editions.

As usual, the Windyguy has jumped the gun.
Here is more from the monograph written by the "alleged prominent US think-tank" that TOI (why do people quote TOI ?? ) did not "allegedly" quote:

Viewed in hindsight, the Kargil War is replete with insights into the dynamics of deterrence in the Indo-Pakistani relationship. Especially important in this regard, Pakistan’smilitary leaders miscalculated badly in their apparent belief that the international communitywould press immediately for a cease-fire in Kashmir out of concern over a possible escalation of the fighting to the nuclear level, with the net result that Pakistan would be left with an easily acquired new slice of terrain on the Indian side of the LoC. In addition, General Malik later suggested that those who concocted the incursion gambit had erroneously convinced themselves that a stable deterrent relationship between India and Pakistan at the nuclear level would enable a Pakistani conventional offensive into Kashmir with virtual impunity. "at analysis was based on the putative premise that
India would not counter the provocation with an all-out conventional response that would risk either escalation or ending in a costly stalemate.
In the end, both of those likely Pakistani assumptions proved unfounded. the nuclear balance between the two countries did not deter a determinedIndian conventional response, and the successful reaction that India ultimately mounted on the Kargil heights fell well short of being allout in scale. Furthermore, since the Vajpayee government scrupulously kept its combat operations confined to Indian-controlled Kashmir, the international community had no compelling reason to intervene.

In other words, the Kargil "misadventure' and its result punched a massive hole into the much-vaunted belief in the "glories" of Nuclear Deterrence.

Then there is even more in the "original source", i.e. the US think-tank's monograph which runs thus:

For students of air warfare, the IAF’s combat experience during the 1999 Kargil War reaffirmed a number of abiding characteristics of modern air arms around the world today. It showed, for example, that innovation and adaptability under the stress of confining rules of engagement—in this case the Vajpayee government’s strict injunction that the IAF not cross the LoC under any circumstances—is a generic hallmark of modern airmanship.
It further showed that professionalism in such operationally crucial matters as campaign planning, presentation of forces, accommodation of new and unique tactical challenges (in this instance the need to engage hard-to-see targets in unprecedentedly high-elevation Himalayan battlespace), and effectively underwriting the needs of a joint force commander is scarcely a monopoly of more familiar Western air arms. It demonstrated yet again how the effective application of air-delivered firepower, particularly if unmatched by the opposing side, can shorten and facilitate the outcome of an engagement that might otherwise have persisted indefinitely

That above quote spells out the US think-tanks assessment of the IAF's performance in Kargil.
Now was that a "poor test" of the IAF's air warfare capability?

p.s. double post material deleted. Why waste band-width?

 

[manojb]

some one said TOI should be taken as bag of salt .. no!!!

 

[Doctor Death]

Tne important battlefield effect achieved by the IAF’s combat air patrol operations during the campaign was their prevention of Pakistani helicopters from resupplying the NLI’s outposts and conducting reconnaissance and casualty evacuation missions, an accomplishment that a retired Indian Army major general portrayed as the IAF’s “most significant contribution” to Operation Vijay.121 Another significant IAF contribution was the successful interdiction of needed resupply to the increasingly beleaguered Pakistani intruders by destroying the NLI’s logistics base at Muntho Dhalo. By one informed assessment, hundreds of enemy troops were killed by IAF air action in such attacks, and Indian military intelligence intercepted numerous enemy radio transmissions during the campaign that attested to the effectiveness of those attacks.122 Especially during the campaign’s final days, that intercepted traffic revealed severe shortages of rations, water, medical supplies, and ammunition, as well as an inability of the occupying enemy units to evacuate their wounded.123 Yet another telling testament to the effectiveness of the IAF’s interdiction attacks came when Pakistan’s Foreign Minister Sartaj Aziz, during an official visit to New Delhi on June 12 as Operation Vijay was just reaching peak intensity, implored the IAF to “stop its air strikes” as one of three specific requests that he levied on the Indian government.124

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/2012/09/20/airpower-at-18-000-indian-air-force-in-kargil-war/dvc4#

 

[janon]

You Indians are such a bunch of drama queens.

Suddenly, CIA is more credible than the disclosures made by your very own Indian Express and Tehlka.com. And what the same CIA says about 2002 stand off and Indian casualties doesn't seem to put wind in your sails.

Dude, YOU posted this article (which is based on a CIA source), and now YOU are crying because you didn't read what it says. That's called a self goal.

For those interested, here is the complete assessment from the CIA guy:
http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/kargil.pdf

some one said TOI should be taken as bag of salt .. no!!!

It depends. If it says anything bad about pakistan, then the ToI is the "toilet media". If the headline is unflattering to India, then suddenly it is more credible than the CIA or anyone else.

(And they don't read anything beyond the headline before gleefully posting it here. Which is why they start cribbing when the rest of it is pointed out to them.)

 

[Windjammer]

Sorry to burst your bubble:

Airpower at 18,000
These are the words of the CIA analyst.

You Indians are such a bunch of drama queens.

Suddenly, CIA is more credible than the disclosures made by your very own Indian Express and Tehlka.com. And what the same CIA says about 2002 stand off and Indian casualties doesn't seem to put wind in your sails.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Why is everyone gettig so worked up? This report is hardly damning it is purely stating the obvious!

 

[Doctor Death]

You Indians are such a bunch of drama queens.

Suddenly, CIA is more credible than the disclosures made by your very own Indian Express and Tehlka.com. And what the same CIA says about 2002 stand off and Indian casualties doesn't seem to put wind in your sails.

Lol your own Ex-PM said that 4,000 Pakistan soldiers were killed in kargil:
http://www.paktribune.com/news/redirect.php?id=151668

 

[Abingdonboy]

The artilce just seems to be saying the IAF was constrined in what it could do during Kargil given the topograpghy and poltiics and proximity to Pakistan and nukes etc similarly the IN was constrained in what they could do and we could say Kargil was a poor test of the IN's capability FFS!! Kargil was a ground war and was always going to be fought on the ground and be IA-centric there is little more the IAF could have done.

The artilce just seems to be saying the IAF was constrined in what it could do during Kargil given the topograpghy and poltiics and proximity to Pakistan and nukes etc similarly the IN was constrained in what they could do and we could say Kargil was a poor test of the IN's capability FFS!! Kargil was a ground war and was always going to be fought on the ground and be IA-centric there is little more the IAF could have done.


Anyway 13 years later things are VERY different and in the coming years things will only get better for the Indian forces:

 

[janon]

Why is everyone gettig so worked up? This report is hardly damning it is purely stating the obvious!

What seems so obvious to most people isn't so obvious to some. Getting bombed into dust is a victory for them, retreating at lightning speed without attaining their objectives is victory to them.

 

[Doctor Death]

Pakistan Army's Munto Dhalo before and after the strike:

 

[Windjammer]

Indian newspapers and their public believe--or say they believe--that the conflict in Dras-Kargil last year was a military victory for India. In fact, it was a war 'won' by briefings and a slavishly supportive media. The Indian public wanted to be assured of 'victory,' and every effort was made to provide that assurance. Kargil was disastrous for Pakistan in worldwide political terms, and was an important public relations coup for the Indian government, both internally (in the run-up to the election), and internationally. But militarily it was a shambles for India whose brave but ill-prepared soldiers suffered gravely and would have sustained even heavier casualties had the conflict continued. The prime minister of Pakistan was ordered by the president of the United States to withdraw his troops from a successful military operation and this was done in time to save the Vajpayee government from the wave of criticism that would have swamped it had the confrontation not been stopped.

Source: "War Drums are Beating" Brian Cloughley.