Kargil : Indian Army's operation "Vijay" was ineffective

[PradoTLC]

Your analysis seems to be inaccurate.

A senior PAF officer has analysed all the aspects and penned it down. Please read it before writing off IAF and IA in one line.

Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force

Pakistani writings on Kargil conflict have been few; those that did come out were largely irrelevant and in a few cases, were clearly spon...

kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com

He also mentions few startling revelations about total lack of synergy and communication between various arms of Pakistan Defence forces.

Kaiser Tufail has clearly brought out the reasons for not deploying PAF. These trolls wouldn’t like to read the facts before jumping in with their story.

keep spinning .... won't do you any good.

You should be grateful you had Americans looking after you.

Pity for you the Americans have no influence over the Chinese..... which is why you were so publicly humiliated

 

[VkdIndian]

keep spinning .... won't do you any good.

Don’t beat around the push and remain on topic.

Your claim about the IAF and IA was completely incorrect as confirmed by Kaiser Tufail.

He has touched upon all the aspects of that conflict and his analysis brings out quite a few facts about the exceptional synergy amongst your forces.

You should be grateful you had Americans looking after you.

Shall I post the interview of EX DG ISI where he brings out all the facts about Kargil planning? It was not Americans but your highly capable Generals who precipitated that disaster for Pakistan.

Please remain on topic and throw some light on facts revealed by Kaiser Tufail.

 

[PradoTLC]

Indian army was so ineffective in Kargil war

correct..

as Dharka Dutt accruately reported the Indians were lobby hard behind the scenes to force Pakistan to withdraw.

''and a delicately nuanced diplomatic initiative to try and get the Americans to intervene.''

Kargil War: Barkha Dutt reveals unknown facts in her book This Unquiet Land - Stories from India's Fault Lines - Nagpur Today : Nagpur News

Nagpur Today : Nagpur News Kargil War: Barkha Dutt reveals unknown facts in her book This Unquiet Land - Stories from India's Fault Lines

www.nagpurtoday.in

Why?

In the field... the IAF was ineffectual. Shot down when it tried to hit PA positions, then resorted to high altitude bombing with laser guided bombs in a predicable flight path.. NLI simply relocated...and relocated again....

on the ground IA using inflexible and predictable tactics was slaughter by sniper fire, artillery fire, anti aircraft guns, and NLI soldiers who used bet with each other on how many Indians there going to wack each day.

Don’t beat around the push and remain on topic.

read carefully what I wrote and think before you type.

Your claim about the IAF and IA was completely incorrect as confirmed by Kaiser Tufail.

excellent you confirm Kasier's credibility.

Kasier also said PAF is leagues ahead IAF training and blew Su-30 out of the sky.

he also said Indian Air Force is a liar. It is impossible to launch a R-77 and achieve as successful lock from the altitude the Abidlondon was flying


thanks for confirming!

 

[VkdIndian]

In the field... the IAF was ineffectual. Shot down when it tried to hit PA positions, then resorted to high altitude bombing with laser guided bombs in a predicable flight path.. NLI simply relocated...and relocated again....

on the ground IA using inflexible and predictable tactics was slaughter by sniper fire, artillery fire, anti aircraft guns, and NLI who used bet with each other on how many Indians there going to wack each day.

Don’t lie. You are trying to paint a picture of NLI being completely in control. I say again it is a complete lie. Since you are trying to not read the account of a decorated PAF officer who was involved in planning at Kargil here is a part of his report :-

“ Kargil, I suspect, like the ‘65 and ‘71 Wars, was a case of not having enough dissenters (‘devil’s advocates’, if you will) during planning, because everyone wanted to agree with the boss. That single reason, I think, was the root cause of most of the failures that were apparent right from the beginning. If this point is understood well, remedial measures towards tolerance and liberalism can follow as a matter of course. Such an organisational milieu, based on honest appraisal and fearless appeal, would be conducive to sound and sensible planning. It would also go a long way in precluding Kargil-like disasters.”

What does he say finally?
KARGIL LIKE DISASTER.

Hope you know the meaning of disaster.

 

[PanzerKiel]

@PanzerKiel my basic understanding of this whole episode is limited. But a quick question for you if you can elaborate. Had we not have conducted Kargil, and kept that strategy in our back pocket for use in optimal conditions; meaning the necessary justification, good preparation for int’l reaction, or as part of a war time strategy. How long might have this window existed where Indian knowledge of our threat and infrastructure would not be able to prevent us from capturing and retaining these heights?

I’m basically asking if this whole thing might have gone better if it were triggered at the right time? And if Kargil hadn’t have happened, how well would the Indians have been prepared say 10 years later for a similar campaign?

Many thanks in advance!

At that time, it was a norm on the Indian side to vacate inaccessible posts during winters due to sustainability issues. Such windows of opportunity are there to be taken only once, because the enemy then comes up with an anti dote.... So if now we want to do something similar, then we'll be capitalizing on some other opportunities, where are there to be taken, and they are plenty to choose from.

Now, if coming to war time, this window might not have existed at all due to increase level of mobilization on both side.... So, this opportunity was always there only to be utilized during peacetime, that too with irregular troops... It could not have been done in any other environment... So timing was excellent.

If we t talk about 10 years later, or maybe today, you can see new raisings in Indian Northern Command, which would have made a Kargil like operation difficult to even launch.

 

[PradoTLC]

Don’t lie. You are trying to paint a picture of NLI being completely in control.

Lie?.

sorry I am not a indian hindu


NLI performed superbly.. which is why it got so many gallantry awards and converted to a full division of the Pakistan Army

Hope you know the meaning of disaster.

It is disaster as it took a American wink to pull us back.

 

[VkdIndian]

NLI performed superbly.. which is why it got so many gallantry awards and converted to a full division of the Pakistan Army

I have no doubts about the bravery of the frontline soldiers. They fought bravely and laid down their lives even after incompetent planning.

Could you please also throw some light on why it took so long for the PA to acknowledge the sacrifice of these brave soldiers? Shall I post the timelines when they were finally given the gallantry awards?

 

[PradoTLC]

even after incompetent planning.

like operation Vijay?.. I agree. A tactical assault that was unimaginative, unable integrate air and ground attack.. lucky you had Clinton. A very effective force.

take a lesson from Pakistan Army retake of Swat Vally a incredible execution of ground, heli boure and fixed and rotary wing attack, a perfect execution of combined arms warfare.

 

[VkdIndian]

I agree. A tactical assault that was unimaginative, unable integrate air and ground attack..

While you accept that it was a complete failure you cover it up by quoting Clinton.
You want to hear the accounts of those in the US administration about the meeting between your PM and the US president?

You have still not spoken a word about the analysis of Kaiser Tufail. Seems, it doesn’t meet your narrative and propaganda?

You are still quite about the delay in acknowledging the sacrifice of NLI soldiers. Please come clean on this issue too.

take a lesson from Pakistan Army retake of Swat Vally a incredible execution of ground, heli boure and fixed and rotary wing attack, a perfect execution of combined arms warfare.

Running away from the Thread topic wouldn’t help.
Kargil was a completely botched up operation from all military angles for Pakistan. Any amount of propaganda wouldn’t change it.

Diplomatically too it was a disaster.
Let’s sort out the military aspects first then we can analyse diplomatic angles too.

 

[Tornado23]

While you accept that it was a complete failure you cover it up by quoting Clinton.
You want to hear the accounts of those in the US administration about the meeting between your PM and the US president?

You have still not spoken a word about the analysis of Kaiser Tufail. Seems, it doesn’t meet your narrative and propaganda?

You are still quite about the delay in acknowledging the sacrifice of NLI soldiers. Please come clean on this issue too.


Running away from the Thread topic wouldn’t help.
Kargil was a completely botched up operation from all military angles for Pakistan. Any amount of propaganda wouldn’t change it.

Diplomatically too it was a disaster.
Let’s sort out the military aspects first then we can analyse diplomatic angles too.

Kaiser was narrating from the air force pov.

Prado is narrating about the entire war.


If we want to see who won this war its very simple. Was the objectives of operation vijay achieved?

 

[VkdIndian]

Kaiser was narrating from the air force pov.

Prado is narrating about the entire war.

It seems you haven’t read Kaiser’s article. He has analysed each and every aspect of that operation. Please read it and then talk.

Kaiser has spoken about planning, execution and the aftermath of Kargil. He has touched upon the Air aspect a little more. If someone says that he hasn’t, then I will paste those portions to prove their lie.

Propaganda that Kargil was a success for Pakistan wouldn’t work.

It was a complete military and diplomatic failure for Pakistan.

 

[Saudang]

and even then, in spite of clinton's support, india ended up suffering a net loss of loosing the highest peak in kargil which they couldn't get back even after taking over 30,000 casualties.

the problem is that indian army (along with their air force and navy) lack something that can neither be bought with money nor taught during training...THAT AGGRESSIVE WILL TO FIGHT!

India achieved a thunderous victory in Kargil, causing more than 130000 casualties to the opposing side. so great the achievement was that the Pakistani side decided to fight for Kashmir since then in twitter and once in a year UN General Assembly meeting ..

(P.S. - the casually figure for pakistani side is from the same source you got the Indian figure)

 

[VkdIndian]

I agree Americans saved your sorry arses that day..

This thread is about Kargil. Stick to the topic.

If you want to discuss any other topic it can be done there. Running away wouldn’t help.

The way you are running away from the subject of discussion it is very clear that you have nothing to prove your point.

Kargil was a disaster for Pakistan.

 

[Tornado23]

It seems you haven’t read Kaiser’s article. He has analysed each and every aspect of that operation. Please read it and then talk.

Kaiser has spoken about planning, execution and the aftermath of Kargil. He has touched upon the Air aspect a little more. If someone says that he hasn’t, then I will paste those portions to prove their lie.

Propaganda that Kargil was a success for Pakistan wouldn’t work.

It was a complete military and diplomatic failure for Pakistan.

I've read the article. He was mostly narrating from the PAF pov. Also his info is dated. We know pakistan sent its NLI into kargil not the irregular infiltrators as he said in the article.

But putting that asides please answer, was operation vijay a success?

 

[GumNaam]

a

India achieved a thunderous victory in Kargil, causing more than 130000 casualties to the opposing side. so great the achievement was that the Pakistani side decided to fight for Kashmir since then in twitter and once in a year UN General Assembly meeting ..

(P.S. - the casually figure for pakistani side is from the same source you got the Indian figure)

130000 casualties? are you sure india's "thunderous" so called victory didn't come from smoking one too many of these?

please...smoke responsibly...apnay liyay, apnay desh ke liyay, apni janta ke liyay aur apnay fefday ke liyay!