Kargil and PAF's role - by a PAF officer.

[blain2]

There was a reason behind the Siachen conflict. The following quoted portion from Wikipedia will throw more light on the reason for the conflict.
About Kargil, the posts occupied by intruders were clearly under Indian controlled territory. The so called self-righteousness is not entirely misplaced.




~ Moriarty

This article is a fairly inaccurate piece of garbage.

The most well known was in 1987, when an attempt was made by Pakistan to dislodge India from the area. The attack was masterminded by Pervez Musharraf (later President of Pakistan) heading a newly raised elite SSG commando unit raised with United States Special Operations Forces help in the area.

Where and how did Musharraf come into this picture? Musharraf had served in the SSG in the late 60s (he joined in 1966). How did he end up heading the SSG in 87?

 

[ahmeddsid]

First don't repeat wht i have already said. This tells me about your lower aptitude!
Second, i'll not waste my energies on you, and just copy paste a reply of mine here (which i already has given you in some other thread). Here it goes:

You call Kargil and Gibraltar 'stabbing in the back'??

that is known as War and Animus. We entered inside you, raptured you and left you to bleed.

The term you call 'stabbing' as regards to Kargil is known as SURPRISE you loser! Go read something known as tactics!
And if you also consider Gibraltar in the same context then again i feel sorry for you as that process is known as INFILTRATION taught as a Minor Operation of War all over the world armies, especially to special forces.

If you call supporting the Kashmiris 'back stabbing' you again are not less then a goof. We openly have admitted that we have and will support the Kashmiri cause.

Now let me tell you what back stabbing is.
The game you played in 71
The game you are playing in Balochistan.
The game you are playing in Wana.
The BS you planned in Mumbai attacks.
The screw up that you did with your Parliament in 2001.
Now please don't give me the same BS-ed reply that you gave me earlier!

and what was gained from Kargil? Widows and Orphans on both sides! Did Kashmir get worldwide attention? Did Peace dawn on all of us? Were you able to retake what you lost in 71? (Kargil)

The terms you used there are intended for Results, not for lack of results!

 

[Moriarty]

They were empty! See my above post about the Kargil heights. They belonged to Pakistan up until 1971. Why were they not returned to Pakistan if the discussion is about the morality of things?

Blain2, I am sorry to point out that you are wrong. Kargil was never under Pakistani control, except during the initial days of '48 war and ofcourse during the infamous Kargil war!

Here's a little read from Wikipedia on Kargil history:

The name Kargil is said to be derived from the words Khar and rKil. Khar means castle and rKil means center thus a place between castles as the place lay between many kingdoms. The competing theory is that Kargil has been derived from the words "Gar" and "Khil". Gar in local language mean ‘Any where’ and Khil means a central place where people could stay.

Kargil remained relatively obscure right until the Partition of India when the issue of Kashmir became the focal point and resulted in the Indo-Pakistani War of 1947. There were pitched battles fought around Kargil which saw the entire area including Drass and Zoji La Pass initially coming under Pakistan control before most of it being reclaimed by Indian troops by November 1948.[2] It remained with India after the ceasefire. It again saw some action in the Second Kashmir War with India managing to wrest back the reminder of the Kargil area twice. The first capture was on May 17, 1965, when skirmishes broke out in Rann of Kutch, and India retaliated in the Kashmir sector.[2] However, this had to be returned as per UNMOGIP treatise. On August 15, the same year Kargil fell to Indian forces, though it was once again returned as part of the Tashkent Agreement.[2] However in the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 the entire Kargil region including key posts was captured for good by Indian troops.[3] In order to straighten out the line of control in the area, the Indian Army launched night attacks when the ground temperatures sank to below -17º and about 15 enemy posts located at height of 16,000 feet and more were captured. [4] After Pakistan forces lost the war and agreed to the Shimla Agreement, Kargil and other strategic areas nearby remained with India.[5] Kargil became a separate district in the Ladakh region during the year 1979 when it was bifurcated from the Leh ditrict.

The area shot into the spotlight in spring of 1999, when under a covert plan hatched by the then Army Chief Pervez Musharraf, armed infiltrators from Pakistan, aided by the Pakistani army, occupied vacant high posts belonging to India in the Kargil and Drass regions. The result was a limited scale conflict (Kargil War) between both nuclear equipped nations that ended with India regaining the Kargil region through military power and diplomatic pressure.

Kargil district - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's more if you follow the thread!

And also there was no military presence on Siachen by any of our forces before ~1982-84. So the duplicity of Indian forces occupying 'empty' Pakistani forces doesn't arise.

~ Moriarty

 

[blain2]

Blain2, I am sorry to point out that you are wrong. Kargil was never under Pakistani control, except during the initial days of '48 war and ofcourse during the infamous Kargil war!

Here's a little read from Wikipedia on Kargil history:


Kargil district - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's more if you follow the thread!

And also there was no military presence on Siachen by any of our forces before ~1982-84. So the duplicity of Indian forces occupying 'empty' Pakistani forces doesn't arise.

~ Moriarty

You need to check your facts. The positions over which the two fought were under Pakistani control and were taken over by the Indian Army during the 1971 conflict.

Please do not quote Wikipedia and specially for the Kargil issue. Its nothing but one sided vitriol lacking any credibility.

Read this for first-hand accounts of the IA officers who participated in 1971 to take over the same positions and heights over which we fought in 1999:

28 years later, Kargil's shadow still falls on veterans' lives
SONU JAIN
NEW DELHI, JUNE 13: Kargil, 1971: December was so chilly if a soldier spat, there would be an icicle on the ground. The enemy might have been the same, but the weather was the more treacherous fiend, the ammunition slightly primitive and the terrain relatively unknown.

Most Armymen who led the Indian troops and won battle honours have long since retired but some are still struggling to cope with the scars that the battle in Kargil has left them with.

Brigadier M.L Whig, who had won the Mahavir Chakra for operations in '71 points to his swollen eyes and X-ray reports of his chest, 28 years after the war.

``I was posted there for more than two years. Technically, we are not supposed to be there for more than six months at a stretch. The result is that I have got an enlarged heart, my arteries have thickened and my eyes have almost given away,'' says Whig.

In his Som Vihar residence in New Delhi, he still switches on to news every hour to see the once-familiar terrain. He has dug out old newspaper clippings and has re-established contact with fellow veterans.

The battalions of 18 Punjab, 7 Guards and Gurkhas had then made a combined assault to capture over 44 pickets spread over 110 square kilometres. The Army's offensive aimed to divert attention from the Naushera, Rajouri and Poonch sectors then. The heights included Hathimatha, Hathipaon, Brachil Pass, Tabletop, Left shoulder, Right shoulder, Hamid, Punjab Tekra, Black rock and a peak called 13620.

These were names which were given to the heights overlooking the highway passing through Drass, Kargil and Batalik. In fact, the '71 veterans are not sure whether they are called by the same now though the battle is concentrated in those very areas.

Lt Gen S.P Malhotra or ``Smoky'' as he was called, was the GOC of 3 Infantry Division which fought in the Kargil sector then. ``It was never a dormant sector but was not being used by infiltrators then. But these heights over-looked the strategic Leh highway, and were important to the Pakistanis from the point of view of observation and dominance over the road which was the only supply line to Kargil and Ladakh,'' said Malhotra.

Those officers who had been posted there and had fought to defend the area in 1971 suspect that the bunkers which the infiltrators are supposed to have built now are the ones they had made years ago. Only the direction of the bunkers' apertures might have been changed instead of facing Pakistan, they now face India.

It was a short and intense war then, and they feel that if the order to cease fire had come a few days later, the country would have gained a more tactical advantage. The strategy then was to cut the enemy from behind, since the terrain made frontal attacks next to impossible.

However, the troops never reached Olthingthong, their ultimate target as the order for the cease-fire came. A post like 13652 was captured for the third time, the first being in 1965 after which it was given to Pakistan under the Tashkent agreement.

Bitterness over these hard-won gains is evident -- the veterans agree that it required superhuman endurance to go through it all. One of the few survivors from his platoon, Brigadier B.S Joshi, then, commander, 18 Punjab, shows a yellow worn-out copy of the Bhagwad Gita, translated by Annie Besant, and says he survived because it was in his backpack.

The unflinching local support which soldiers had then, is one of the factors he believes to be responsible for their gains.

``The one-eyed numberdar of Karkitchhu village offered to bring down all the casualties from these heights with the help of local village girls, saving us a lot of man-power,'' recalls Brigadier Joshi, wondering if he is still alive.

In fact, carrying casualties, is one of the toughest things, remember all of them. For one person on a stretcher, at least eight people are required. And with temperatures reaching -15 degrees Celsius at heights between 13,000 and 17,000 feet, nearly 60 per cent people suffered some form of frost bite, chilblains and gangrene.

What they all remember vividly is the feel of climbing up those treacherous heights, with as much as 50 kilos on their backs. The winter clothing included snowboots, parkas, ammunition. In addition, each soldier would be carrying one-day cooked food, two-days' semi-cooked food and one day's shakarparas(sweets).

And with no sophisticated mine detection units, Captain H.M. Pant remembers walking with a flock of sheep in front, using them as a warning system for enemy landmines.

Giving an example of how tough the terrain was, then GOC Malhotra describes his miraculous escape: One of the roads got cut and the Jeep he was travelling in was saved by a jutting stone from falling into a 100-feet deep valley below.

Brigadier Whig still walks with a stoop as he had fallen from the hill like a ``mountain goat'' onto a snow covered ledge. A little embarrassed lest his troops saw him, he remembers brushing the snow and climbing.

``It was all a question of self control, superhuman grit and determination to battle not just the enemy but the terrain and the weather too,'' said Brigadier Joshi. According to him, 500 soldiers gave up smoking before the battle. ``I had killed six soldiers of the enemy camp and was declared dead by the Pakistani radio to demoralise my troops,'' he added.

Kargil village, with only a dozen shops and a guest house was entirely dependent on the Army for its rations, transport, food, medicine and even education, recall these veterans. They, in turn, used porters or rented out mules. But, the sound of shells has been part of the town since 1965.

Copyright © 1998 Indian Express Newspapers (Bombay) Ltd.

http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie/daily/19990614/ige14117.html

 

[Moriarty]

This article is a fairly inaccurate piece of garbage.

Ok, Fine. Then why don't you quote your sources? I would like to know if there is another story to the Siachen conflict.

Where and how did Musharraf come into this picture? Musharraf had served in the SSG in the late 60s (he joined in 1966). How did he end up heading the SSG in 87?

I thought you would know more about your military leaders than others.

Military career
Pervez Musharraf

In 1961, he entered the Pakistan Military Academy at Kakul, graduating 11th in his class. He was commissioned on April 19, 1964 in the Artillery Regiment. Later he joined the Special Services Group and was posted to Field Artillery Regiments. A graduate of the Command and Staff College, Quetta, and the National Defence College, Rawalpindi, Musharraf is also a graduate of the Royal College of Defence Studies of the United Kingdom. Musharraf revealed in his memoirs that in 1965 he was charged with taking unauthorized leave and was about to be court-martialed for it, but was excused due to the war with India.[12]

Indo-Pakistani wars

Musharraf participated in the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 as the 2nd Lieutenant in the 16 (SP) Field Artillery Regiment. His regiment saw action as part of the First Armoured Division’s offensive in the Khemkaran sector, as part of a major offensive against the Indian Army, the Pakistani army advanced 15 miles (24 km) into India and it was in the town of Khem Karan that Musharraf wrote his first letter to his mother during the war "proudly saying that I was writing from India".[12] However despite the initial success and possessing a quantitative advantage and significant superiority in armour,[13] the 1st armoured division (labelled "pride of the Pakistan Army") suffered a "crushing defeat" at Khemkaran, which became known as "Patton Nagar" or graveyard of Pakistani tanks.[14] By all accounts the vital advance failed at the Battle of Asal Uttar, as Pakistan lost a golden opportunity to make major strategic gains, and was a turning point in the war.[15][14] His regiment was later moved to the Lahore front which was threatened by the Indian Army, according to Musharraf "Having stabilized the Lahore front, we were ordered to move again to the Sialkot front. This was where the famous tank battles of Chawinda were fought. At the end of the war this sector was to become a graveyard of Indian tanks.".[16] During the war Musharraf was noted for sticking to his post under shellfire.[17] Towards the end of the war an Indian shell hit one of the artillery guns of Musharraf's unit and set it on fire. According to Musharraf, whilst everyone else took cover, he, followed by another soldier, "dashed to the blazing gun" and removed the "hot shells" one by one and "threw them to safety on the ground". For this he received an award for gallantry and was promoted to the rank of captain.[16]

Later, in the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 he served as a Company Commander in the Special Service Group (SSG) Commando Battalion. Originally scheduled to be flown to East Pakistan along with other SSG troops, he was redeployed in Punjab as war broke out and all flights over India were cancelled. He later admitted that he "broke down and wept"[12] when he heard the "disgusting" news of Pakistan's unconditional surrender to India.[18] Later he commanded Regiments of Artillery, an Artillery Brigade and then an Infantry Division. In September 1987, he was instrumental in giving orders to a newly formed SSG at Khapalu base (Kashmir), which launched an assault and successfully captured two intermediate posts, Bilafond La in Siachen Glacier, before being pushed back.[19]

On promotion to the rank of Major General on 15 January 1991, he was assigned the command of an Infantry Division. Later, on promotion to Lieutenant General on 21 October 1995 he took over command of 1 Corps, the elite strike Corps. In 1998, following the resignation of General Jehangir Karamat, he was personally promoted over other senior officers by Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, as an obedient officer and took over as the Army Chief of Staff and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Role in Kargil Conflict

Main article: Kargil War

From May to July 1999, Pakistan and India were involved in the Kargil Conflict, an armed conflict between the two countries in the Kargil district of Kashmir. It was planned and executed during General Musharraf's term as the Pakistani Army Chief of Staff under Prime Minister Sharif.

Sharif has claimed that Musharraf was solely responsible for the Kargil attacks.[20] On the other hand, Musharraf claims that the decision was made by Sharif, who was under United States pressure. Ex-CENTCOM Commander Anthony Zinni, and Sharif, have stated that Musharraf requested that the Prime Minister withdraw Pakistani troops from Kashmir.[21]

Casualties on both sides had been particularly heavy in Kargil.[22] Musharraf had good relations with Jehangir Karamat from whom he took over the command. Soon after the coup, one of the first to be appointed as minister was journalist Maleeha Lodhi who was close to Jehangir Karamat. Also recruited was Shaukat Aziz (who served as the country's Prime Minister later) who volunteered to improve the economy. Western banks rescheduled Pakistani loans, which had been subjected to economic sanctions since Pakistan conducted atomic testing.

Pervez Musharraf resigned from the Army on 28 November 2007 in an attempt to regularise his position as President.[23]

Well lets see if you have another resume for Musharaff.

~ Moriarty

 

[Moriarty]

You need to check your facts. The positions over which the two fought were under Pakistani control and were taken over by the Indian Army during the 1971 conflict.

Please do not quote Wikipedia and specially for the Kargil issue. Its nothing but one sided vitriol lacking any credibility.

I expected a little more caliber from a respected moderator. Ok give me other sources which places Kargil under Pakistani control till '71.

Btw, its interesting to note that you can quote Wikipedia when it suits you and discard it as garbage when it gives a different viewpoint other than what you have been holding dearly onto. That's insane!

~ Moriarty

 

[blain2]

Ok, Fine. Then why don't you quote your sources? I would like to know if there is another story to the Siachen conflict.



I thought you would know more about your military leaders than others.



Well lets see if you have another resume for Musharaff.

~ Moriarty

My source is personal. I know when Musharraf was in the SSG. I know the units he has served in and later commanded. I know that he never commanded the SSG so it was never his call to make to send the SSG troops in for Operation Qiyadat. It was pushed by another Commander SSG at that time.

Your source is B Raman who has been copied and copied all over the net without any verification. Those who know anything about anything know better.

I say this not to denigrate what you are saying. Simply calling the credibility of the source questionable.

 

[blain2]

I expected a little more caliber from a respected moderator. Ok give me other sources which places Kargil under Pakistani control till '71.

Btw, its interesting to note that you can quote Wikipedia when it suits you and discard it as garbage when it gives a different viewpoint other than what you have been holding dearly onto. That's insane!

~ Moriarty

Its inappropriate to quote Wiki when there is a disagreement because its an open source and people post stuff linked to newspapers and what not. Please find me a Wiki source that I have used when there was disagreement on this board as I think you are being rather unfair in judging me. For basic information, quoting Wiki is fine.

I just posted an article (post # 49) from the Indian newspaper which gives first person accounts of the Indian operations to take over the positions occupied by Pakistani troops in 1971. What more can I offer you? Your own officers are talking about the guts and glory it took to take those heights from the Pakistani side.

 

[Xeric]

and what was gained from Kargil? Widows and Orphans on both sides! Did Kashmir get worldwide attention? Did Peace dawn on all of us? Were you able to retake what you lost in 71? (Kargil)

The terms you used there are intended for Results, not for lack of results!

What did india gain by occupying Kashmir, supporting mukti bani, helping anti-state elements in Pakistan etc etc..?? i guess the same that have you claimed about Pakistan's gains in your post.

BTW i have already explained amply what we gained by Kargil in my post # 22 on this thread. Try to pay some head to it!!

 

[tamir]

I would highly recommend to all forum members not to use wikipedia as a source.... specially contentious history facts. Suddenly the internet has made everyone an expert on everything.

Please give some thought to senior members who are talking about history and facts.... and have actually been a part of or witness to what they are talking about.

 

[Moriarty]

I just posted an article (post # 49) from the Indian newspaper which gives first person accounts of the Indian operations to take over the positions occupied by Pakistani troops in 1971. What more can I offer you? Your own officers are talking about the guts and glory it took to take those heights from the Pakistani side.

You were right about some sectors in Kargil. Yes they were under Pakistani control until the '65 war, when they were captured twice by the Indian forces and were returned during the Tashkent agreement.
In '71 when war erupted, Indian forces captured those peaks again and set up permanent posts there. According to that post you made, if the war had carried on for a few more days, then the Indian forces would have captured a little more territory.

ps: sorry, that was from Wikipedia. Guess Wikipedia is not that biased after all

~ Moriarty.

 

[TexasJohn]

No the author is the same one (Air Commodore M. Kaiser Tufail) who has written the article that started this thread. I was just making a point that even those who have fought wars against India are not obsessed with wars as was stated by someone about Pakistanis.

Truer word were never spoken here. My dad ( now 86) is a combat veteran from WWII. The 8th against Rommel, and so on. He last saw action in 1962. A lot of his batch mates went to the Pakistan Army and they are all still friends. I last visited him in Bangalore in 1999.

He has the highest respect for the standards of the Officers of the PA. " we were just soldiers" he always says.

It is so sad to read some of the armchair warriors posts here. They would not last ONE day in battle - probably die of stupidity!!

You are right - the real veterans just state the facts. They have already been there and got the T-shirts ( not to mention the memories of war in reality).

 

[ejaz007]

It also must be noted too that other than F-16s, the PAF did not have a capable enough fighter for patrolling, as the minimum requirement in this scenario was an on-board airborne intercept radar, exceptional agility and sufficient staying power. F-7s had reasonably good manoeuvrability but lacked an intercept radar as well as endurance, while the ground attack Mirage-III/5s and A-5s were sitting ducks for the air combat mission.


F7s Mirages 3/5 & A5 represent 85% of PAFS frontline combat planes EVEN TODAY....

170F7P/PG

150 MIRAGE 3/5

40 A5

44 F16

(08 JF17 Thunders going thru trials)

THIS IS 10 YEARS AFTER KARGIL

Not entirley accurate statement.

Mirage fighters have gone through ROSE upgrades and are much better than they were in 1999.

F-7 PG is much better fighter than F-7P. We have increased the number of F-7PG fighters.

F-16's are presently going through MLU and the 10 F-16's received from USA are MLU.

10 JF-17's are under testing and first squadron is expected to be inducted in March-April 2009.

The air force has changed a lot from 1999.

 

[ejaz007]

It is so sad to read some of the armchair warriors posts here. They would not last ONE day in battle - probably die of stupidity!!

Dear,

They won't last an hour and you are giving them a full day.

Most of them would end up fighting on the wrong side and would find that after death when angel would tell them they were found with soldiers from the other side.

 

[TexasJohn]

Dear,

They won't last an hour and you are giving them a full day.

Most of them would end up fighting on the wrong side and would find that after death when angel would tell them they were found with soldiers from the other side.

Thankfully, none of these clowns would even survive boot camp and be spared an ignomious death. Professional armies have a distinct weeding out process in place. The PA and IA both share the same high standards at the operational level.