Kargil and PAF's role - by a PAF officer.

[Panther 57]

Now, NS coward, Big bang.. I assume its the Nuclear program. NS was/is very much a man of lesser gait who prefers the status quo(due to both monetary and legacy issues). Moreover, accounts from multiple personalities including clinton refer to severe threats given to him(and the nation of Pakistan) for testing a nuclear weapon. However, eventually after consulting and prodding he did "push the button" and not give in to American Pressure. By contrast, the Commando(from his own account) was scared out of "being bombed to the stone age" that he did not go beyond war games to consult any political party and ended up placing Pakistan on a platter to the US.

I happen to know how NS was **** scared of pressing the button. It was under the pressure of his colleagues he ended up authorizing detonation test. If you think Chaghi was dug up in his time, I am afraid your comprehension is incorrect. Chaghi was dug up long ago and sealed for use at appropriate time. The only credit which goes to NS is number of detonations - to ensure despite being nuclear capable Pakistan is left with no nuclear armament left. Do you think it needs six explosions to confirm nuclear detonation capability. This is where he submitted to Clinton. OK you want to do it, then expand it all.

Credit goes to Gen PM who rebuilt it gave it a proper command structure to be controlled responsibly and safe guard it.

Kargil

I think @batmannow referred to his personal experience on kargil so nothing more is required. However, my comment on it is the one liner
It was an excellent military move and poorest political move. Those who think Kargil was an operation done just on the whims are somewhat incorrect, as no military operation is done just on whims, there is years and years of planning and continuous improvement to the plan, until executed.

Democracy is a buzz word which is used without by these politicians to fool people. A country has to be primed to sustain democracy, so long these so called opportunist (politicians) will keep themselves above law and harp the tunes of democracy, it will remain a democraZy.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

For that matter Monsieur, neither were Ayub, Musa or any of these men.. but that is the story of the Murder of PA's Officer corps which began with Ayub. Once merit was put down the drain for those that knew how much Soda, Gin and Tonic you like.. there was little to prevent Gibraltar or Kargil like disasters from these half wit Clausewitz wannabes who come up with brilliant opening paragraphs like Hemingway but then have little vocabulary or ideas(Or bad ones) to leave the piece in a state that would not befit a Montessori book.
After all, one must ask of decisions such as change of command at Akhnur(leave the fact that it was Hara Kiri to start with) or did you think about what after during Kargil really do have a lot of resemblance to a roulette player rather than a Poker player.

There are however, definitely many professionals who make it through who(while not Rommels) know their remember key ideas from Staff/War colleges and(many might disagree with me) Kayani is one of them. Perhaps if this quarter witted democratic process survives and some semblance of public accountability lives it may dawn that the officer corps are on merit from top to bottom in totality without any internal or external interference;As men like Nawaz Sharif or Bhutto havent helped along much in trying to put a Toady(s) into office rather than deserving folks. Alas, the cycle is essentially a product of the surviving feudal/elitist system that essentially creates(If I may take liberty) a cabal of the Kshatriyas and Vaishyas who occasionally collude with Brahmin to ensure their gains by using and influencing Shudras while keeping the Dalits deprived of anything else.

Ah @Oscar; you have indeed explained the core of the problem, while using particularly evocative words buttressed by the facts. While there has scarcely been a Clausewitz or a Manstein or even Rommel on the other side of the border, some of the Generalship at the GHQ level displayed has been abysmal if not downright amusing. The "switch-around" at Akhnur was a classic case of that. Part of the problem was also the fact that the earliest leadership of the PA was astronomically pushed upwards in the echelons regardless of merit (or the lack thereof). We have to remember that the Indian Army of the colonial times needed to be populated with 'native' Officers who could be reasonably competent but more importantly needed to be subservient to the system above all. When Partition took place, the vaccuum left behind by the departing British had to be filled in somehow. In the process, some people were pushed far beyond the 'level of their incompetence'; Ayub and his coterie were indicative of that. This was coupled with the abject lack of leadership in Pakistan after the untimely demise of M.A.Jinnah. There is an adage that" scum always rises to the surface" and in the case above, it rose to the zenith. If the Civilian Political leadership in Pakistan post the Quaid was reasonably competent; then the Military Estt. would have grown both in reasonable fashion and would have become properly institutionalised.

While I have no love lost for the Politicos in India and coming as I do from an 'Uniformed background', I have still come to believe that the Political Estt. (in India) has in fact helped to ensure that the Indian Military Estt. has created an institution that one can be reasonably proud of.
In the end- even the "danda-wallas" need to be reminded that a "danda" can exist some where else too!

About the allegory (or metaphor) that you used of the Caste System; it is particularly appropriate and correct in this context!

 

[batmannow]

Ah @Oscar; you have indeed explained the core of the problem, while using particularly evocative words buttressed by the facts. While there has scarcely been a Clausewitz or a Manstein or even Rommel on the other side of the border, some of the Generalship at the GHQ level displayed has been abysmal if not downright amusing. The "switch-around" at Akhnur was a classic case of that. Part of the problem was also the fact that the earliest leadership of the PA was astronomically pushed upwards in the echelons regardless of merit (or the lack thereof). We have to remember that the Indian Army of the colonial times needed to be populated with 'native' Officers who could be reasonably competent but more importantly needed to be subservient to the system above all. When Partition took place, the vaccuum left behind by the departing British had to be filled in somehow. In the process, some people were pushed far beyond the 'level of their incompetence'; Ayub and his coterie were indicative of that. This was coupled with the abject lack of leadership in Pakistan after the untimely demise of M.A.Jinnah. There is an adage that" scum always rises to the surface" and in the case above, it rose to the zenith. If the Civilian Political leadership in Pakistan post the Quaid was reasonably competent; then the Military Estt. would have grown both in reasonable fashion and would have become properly institutionalised.

While I have no love lost for the Politicos in India and coming as I do from an 'Uniformed background', I have still come to believe that the Political Estt. (in India) has in fact helped to ensure that the Indian Military Estt. has created an institution that one can be reasonably proud of.
In the end- even the "danda-wallas" need to be reminded that a "danda" can exist some where else too!

About the allegory (or metaphor) that you used of the Caste System; it is particularly appropriate and correct in this context!

are you refering to the exposures done By MR. V K SINGH, a former army chief who , was forced retire just because , he just went to open the crouption pot of the, indian political estb?
& the real deal readyness of indian armed forces?lolzzz
my dear, just keep yourself, in your ghandhi shb ,s dhoti , which you may hve got after his murder?
now stay on topic, dont give free lessons of the productivty of indian damcrazy?
elections are, near just give your vote to modi, so we can see another great blood hooli, from the blood of indian muslims?

 

[A1Kaid]

There was no distribution of sweets in mohallas or anything. Rather,people were just wondering what happens next. The only place where there were sweets being distributed were those who had a bone to pick with NS. The rest of your post is again gibberish that resembles somebody frothing away at their mouth rather than taking an objective look into the matter.

The right thing to do was to hold elections. The right thing to do , if there was a brave move to be done in honour and principle and not just to usurp power and sit on it; was to disqualify people accused of corruption and then hold elections. That would have ensured that certain big players dont come to power at all and would have one upped Gen Kakar's approach in dealing with NS.
But he did not, and moreover.. there are already whistle blowers who are pointing to his alleged planning of the coup months before to avoid embarrassment for his Hara Kiri of thousands of Pakistani troops in kargil.

This is absolutely false and any of these fake "whistle blowers" are distorting information due to political reasons that they are against Gen. Musharraf. Pakistan won in Kargil and inflicted heavy losses on the Indian side with small losses on the Pakistani side. Most of the important peaks of Kargil are still with PA today.

 

[SQ8]

This is absolutely false and any of these fake "whistle blowers" are distorting information due to political reasons that they are against Gen. Musharraf. Pakistan won in Kargil and inflicted heavy losses on the Indian side with small losses on the Pakistani side. Most of the important peaks of Kargil are still with PA today.

Really??
In one fell swoop, you are accusing people like ACdre Kaiser, AVM Shahid Latif, Gen Talat and others of being dishonest in their accounts. While generally these men are respected throughout their former services you state they are men of zero integrity and their word is of no value? What proof do you have to back this claim?

Because then as such, these statements are declared to be of poor intellectual value by your claims.

In an effort to keep the plan secret, which was thought to be the key to its successful initiation, the Army trio took no one into confidence, neither its own operational commanders nor the heads of the other services. This, regrettably, resulted in a closed-loop thought process which engendered a string of oversights and failures:

-Failure to grasp the wider military and diplomatic ramifications of a limited tactical operation that had the potential of creating major strategic effects.

-Failure to correctly visualise the response of a powerful enemy to what was, in effect, a major blow in a disputed sector.

-Failure to spell out the specific aim to field commanders, who acted on their own to needlessly capture territory and expand the scope of the operation to unmanageable levels.

-Failure to appreciate the inability of the Army officers to evaluate the capabilities and limitations of an Air Force.

-Failure to coordinate contingency plans at the tri-services level.

The flaws in the Kargil Plan that led to these failures were almost palpable and, could not have escaped even a layman’s attention during a cursory examination. The question arises as to why all the planners got blinded to the obvious? Could it be that some of the sub-ordinates had the sight but not the nerve in the face of a powerful superior? In hierarchical organisations, there is precious little room for dissent, but in autocratic ones like the military, it takes more than a spine to disagree, for there are very few commanders who are large enough to allow such liberties. It is out of fear of annoying the superior – which also carries with it manifold penalties and loss of promotion and perks – that the majority decide to go along with the wind.

My inclination is that most of the Kargil victory hogwash is from the last bold sentence which defines the crucial drawback in Pakistani military officer integrity and quality. Hence, till Musharraf was in power they would clearly not risk the ire of the sole "lord of all that I see" and wait till he was no longer able to inflict them any harm that they spoke up. This makes sense as many dissenters during Zia's regime also did not reveal the true underpinnings of his corruption ridden rule until after he blew up. They are humans and have families to protect. From a world wide perspective, from secondary analysts and from these military men themselves.. Kargil was a brilliant tactical plan that turned out to be an unmitigated strategic disaster rivalled only by Operation Gibraltar.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Really??
In one fell swoop, you are accusing people like ACdre Kaiser, AVM Shahid Latif, Gen Talat and others of being dishonest in their accounts. While generally these men are respected throughout their former services you state they are men of zero integrity and their word is of no value? What proof do you have to back this claim?

Because then as such, these statements are declared to be of poor intellectual value by your claims.



My inclination is that most of the Kargil victory hogwash is from the last bold sentence which defines the crucial drawback in Pakistani military officer integrity and quality. Hence, till Musharraf was in power they would clearly not risk the ire of the sole "lord of all that I see" and wait till he was no longer able to inflict them any harm that they spoke up. This makes sense as many dissenters during Zia's regime also did not reveal the true underpinnings of his corruption ridden rule until after he blew up. They are humans and have families to protect. From a world wide perspective, from secondary analysts and from these military men themselves.. Kargil was a brilliant tactical plan that turned out to be an unmitigated strategic disaster rivalled only by Operation Gibraltar.

I think that that A/Cdre Kaiser Tufail summed up that most accurately and objectively in one paragraph of his write-up on the PAF's role in the Kargil misadventure. One of the hallmarks of any Professional (in any field, including the Military) is the ability to make a crystal-clear assessment (Appreciation) of the situation; rather than "situating the appreciation" which iswhat Kargil's planners(?) did. Any Military Op. neds to "Appreciate" both the 'smaller picture' as well as the 'larger picture'. Did the putative "Op Badr" plan do that?

Now about the "alleged success" of Kargil; at the Military level the then Dy. DG ISPR (a Colonel) in his well researched book "Witness to Blunder" has blown up that Canard 'sky-high'.

On the Geo-Political level; Kargil simply started the process of "de-hyphenation" that had always overshadowed India and Pakstan in their images wrt the Wetern World esp USA. That is the greatest favor that Musharraff could have ever done India. f anything at all; Musharraff, by his sheer incompetence; ended up becoming India's "fifth column" bar none and helped to consign Kashmir to the graveyard. Now if that is a success, then to think about failure would be.....

Finally; the PAF was simply unable to pull the PA's "cojones out of a raging fire" unlike as in 1965's mess; because the PAF hd been emasculated beyond repair due to causes internal and external to Pakistan. In A/Cdre Kaiser's words; probably the PAF helped the PA from getting into a larger self-destructive conflagration. But who thinks about that?
Of course, historically; the PAF has been blessed with a better Leadership than the PA, generally speaking.

And as attested to by both American Diplomats and Generals of that time; even Nawaz Sharif (bumbling as he may be) helped to bail out Musharraff and his Cabal by making his 4th July trip to Wash. D.C.
But now, how many people want to acknowledge that fact?

 

[batmannow]

I think that that A/Cdre Kaiser Tufail summed up that most accurately and objectively in one paragraph of his write-up on the PAF's role in the Kargil misadventure. One of the hallmarks of any Professional (in any field, including the Military) is the ability to make a crystal-clear assessment (Appreciation) of the situation; rather than "situating the appreciation" which iswhat Kargil's planners(?) did. Any Military Op. neds to "Appreciate" both the 'smaller picture' as well as the 'larger picture'. Did the putative "Op Badr" plan do that?

Now about the "alleged success" of Kargil; at the Military level the then Dy. DG ISPR (a Colonel) in his well researched book "Witness to Blunder" has blown up that Canard 'sky-high'.

On the Geo-Political level; Kargil simply started the process of "de-hyphenation" that had always overshadowed India and Pakstan in their images wrt the Wetern World esp USA. That is the greatest favor that Musharraff could have ever done India. f anything at all; Musharraff, by his sheer incompetence; ended up becoming India's "fifth column" bar none and helped to consign Kashmir to the graveyard. Now if that is a success, then to think about failure would be.....

Finally; the PAF was simply unable to pull the PA's "cojones out of a raging fire" unlike as in 1965's mess; because the PAF hd been emasculated beyond repair due to causes internal and external to Pakistan. In A/Cdre Kaiser's words; probably the PAF helped the PA from getting into a larger self-destructive conflagration. But who thinks about that?
Of course, historically; the PAF has been blessed with a better Leadership than the PA, generally speaking.

And as attested to by both American Diplomats and Generals of that time; even Nawaz Sharif (bumbling as he may be) helped to bail out Musharraff and his Cabal by making his 4th July trip to Wash. D.C.
But now, how many people want to acknowledge that fact?

offtopic, reported!
all of your twists & turns!
but what about dear george fernandis scandle getting over import, of the woods for the cofins, dead indian soilders, wasnt the cofins wood, was finished in india then?
see lies, are just lies?jay hind in kargill?

 

[Panther 57]

Really??
In one fell swoop, you are accusing people like ACdre Kaiser, AVM Shahid Latif, Gen Talat and others of being dishonest in their accounts. While generally these men are respected throughout their former services you state they are men of zero integrity and their word is of no value? What proof do you have to back this claim?

Because then as such, these statements are declared to be of poor intellectual value by your claims.

My inclination is that most of the Kargil victory hogwash is from the last bold sentence which defines the crucial drawback in Pakistani military officer integrity and quality. Hence, till Musharraf was in power they would clearly not risk the ire of the sole "lord of all that I see" and wait till he was no longer able to inflict them any harm that they spoke up. This makes sense as many dissenters during Zia's regime also did not reveal the true underpinnings of his corruption ridden rule until after he blew up. They are humans and have families to protect. From a world wide perspective, from secondary analysts and from these military men themselves.. Kargil was a brilliant tactical plan that turned out to be an unmitigated strategic disaster rivalled only by Operation Gibraltar.

Every person may have a different perspective of Kargil, had the operation not reversed, today story would have been very different. It was NS who admitted PA to be there and what we lost was during retrieval. Had not retreated, the other side was on its knees. Due to supply line cut off, only air lifting of food was costing them a fortune. In not a very long time a number of non-combat casualties would have rendered Siachin fully in control of PA.

 

[A1Kaid]

Really??
In one fell swoop, you are accusing people like ACdre Kaiser, AVM Shahid Latif, Gen Talat and others of being dishonest in their accounts. While generally these men are respected throughout their former services you state they are men of zero integrity and their word is of no value? What proof do you have to back this claim?

Because then as such, these statements are declared to be of poor intellectual value by your claims.



My inclination is that most of the Kargil victory hogwash is from the last bold sentence which defines the crucial drawback in Pakistani military officer integrity and quality. Hence, till Musharraf was in power they would clearly not risk the ire of the sole "lord of all that I see" and wait till he was no longer able to inflict them any harm that they spoke up. This makes sense as many dissenters during Zia's regime also did not reveal the true underpinnings of his corruption ridden rule until after he blew up. They are humans and have families to protect. From a world wide perspective, from secondary analysts and from these military men themselves.. Kargil was a brilliant tactical plan that turned out to be an unmitigated strategic disaster rivalled only by Operation Gibraltar.

I don't have the time for you and to educate you on every detail on Kargil. What I will tell you is to this day there are Pakistani units in Kargil and all the dominant peaks are in Pakistan's possession. The only failure was a propaganda and political one the tactical and strategic was won, in spite what some may say. That is a fact neither you nor your authored sources can deny. You are simply looking at criticisms about PA, you have no idea of the blunders made by the Indian army and how pathetic their situation was. I too have read many accounts, probably more than you, I have also personally met with a retired Colonel and others.

 

[SQ8]

I don't have the time for you and to educate you on every detail on Kargil. What I will tell you is to this day there are Pakistani units in Kargil and all the dominant peaks are in Pakistan's possession. The only failure was a propaganda and political one the tactical and strategic was won, in spite what some may say. That is a fact neither you nor your authored sources can deny. You are simply looking at criticisms about PA, you have no idea of the blunders made by the Indian army and how pathetic their situation was. I too have read many accounts, probably more than you, I have also personally met with a retired Colonel and others.

I dont need indoctrination, I need facts and the second bolded sentence is a claim and NOT a fact. I certainly doubt you have more than me on Kargil considering you are referring to a retired colonel as the most authentic source. It would be certainly counter productive for you to engage in a "source" match or put up the rather hollow excuse of "you are out to criticize the PA". Why dont we hear the colonels accounts(as given to you) on how this was a strategic master-stroke on say this thread.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/20672-kargil-pafs-role-paf-officer-10.html

 

[Dillinger]

I dont need indoctrination, I need facts and the second bolded sentence is a claim and NOT a fact. I certainly doubt you have more than me on Kargil considering you are referring to a retired colonel as the most authentic source. It would be certainly counter productive for you to engage in a "source" match or put up the rather hollow excuse of "you are out to criticize the PA". Why dont we hear the colonels accounts(as given to you) on how this was a strategic master-stroke on say this thread.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/20672-kargil-pafs-role-paf-officer-10.html

Considering that most of these folks can't find the point (lord knows where the multiple "strategic" peaks came from) in question (p-17561) on a map its an exercise in futility to try and break through the "wall". You should relegate yourself to singing paeans, celebrating Musharraf obviously.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I dont need indoctrination, I need facts and the second bolded sentence is a claim and NOT a fact. I certainly doubt you have more than me on Kargil considering you are referring to a retired colonel as the most authentic source. It would be certainly counter productive for you to engage in a "source" match or put up the rather hollow excuse of "you are out to criticize the PA". Why dont we hear the colonels accounts(as given to you) on how this was a strategic master-stroke on say this thread.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/20672-kargil-pafs-role-paf-officer-10.html

Actually @Oscar; the Colonel (the then Dy. DG ISPR) painstakingly interviewed personnel who were involved in Kargil and discovered the scope of the cover-up that was perpetrated post-Kargil. And he has written even how GHQ fudged the figures of the casualties of the NLI and regular Forces. But the biggest 'cooking of the books' was done in respect of the hapless NLI soldiers. All that became part of his book "Witness to Blunder" and could well have been a sound basis of any Officila Enquiry in to the Kargil Fiasco. But that Inquiry was not allowed to happen; for reasons that are obvious!
So much so that Musharraff HAD TO UNSEAT Nawaz Sharif mainly to ensure that the "wolf of the inquiry" would never be allowed to reach his doorstep!
The crowning irony was that one of the Cabal was elevated by Musharraff to the post of Commandant of the Natitional Defence College later.
Wonder what that worthy General must have taught his Military Students there on the nuances of "Strategic Planning in Waging a War"!!

 

[Viking 63]

Guys Guys Guys, everone made a point, but the bottom line about Pakistan and Painfull truth is "" PAKISTAN HAS ALWAYS BEEN PUT ON THE SPOT AND SEVERLY DEMAGED BY 2nd RATED ARMY GENRALS AND 3rd RATED POLITICIANS """" Kargil eposide is no different !!!