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Kargil and PAF's role - by a PAF officer.

In your view then would it justify if India sends its troops to occupy positions

India did just that in Siachen, as pointed out already.

I think the self-righteousness amongst Indians over Pakistan's decision to do Kargil is misplaced, given Indian action in Siachen.

All of your questions about morality or legality woudl have to apply to India's actions in Siachen first, before they apply to Pakistan's in Kargil.
 
Unless you absolutely have to, you shouldn't lose that aspect of your society.

Once weapons become ingrained in culture, its very hard to remove them, whether in the US or Pakistan.

The focus should be on better intelligence and preemption, not on having gun toting guards everywhere.

Agno, you would be shocked to know that the local policemen are not even trained in heavy weapons, are NOT even proficient shooters with small arms!

They should atleast be trained for such eventualities. I have to agree, it was one of the reasons Mumbai attack happened, if the Mumbai police had started shooting at the first go, casualties might have been reduced to half.
 
India did just that in Siachen, as pointed out already.

I think the self-righteousness amongst Indians over Pakistan's decision to do Kargil is misplaced, given Indian action in Siachen.

All of your questions about morality or legality woudl have to apply to India's actions in Siachen first, before they apply to Pakistan's in Kargil.
Fine, okay, lets say If we are Even. Now the way forward is throw these stuff away. Just like a Pakistani friend of mine told in another thread, Usa Nuked Japan and now they are best buddies, same with Germany! Why the heck cant we be friends????????

I say the Peace Solution we proposed in the Kashmir thread about 10 years peace and then Plebisicite it should be taken up by Us. I mean we should present it as a memorandum to our governemtns or something. We should gather up support. I might be Naive, but Peace is possible, If a few Indian channels harping on Precision Strikes (i too was a fan not long ago until i got to know the folly of such an action!) go off air! and people like Zaid Hamid harping about Hindu Looks are put away! God Speed
 
I meant that atleast Siachen was not occupied by Pakistan before India sent its army there. In Kargil, PA used bunkers created by IA. There was a tacit understanding as mentioned in one of the previous posts.

Anyway, whats happened is happened.
 
India did just that in Siachen, as pointed out already.

I think the self-righteousness amongst Indians over Pakistan's decision to do Kargil is misplaced, given Indian action in Siachen.

All of your questions about morality or legality woudl have to apply to India's actions in Siachen first, before they apply to Pakistan's in Kargil.

There was a reason behind the Siachen conflict. The following quoted portion from Wikipedia will throw more light on the reason for the conflict.
About Kargil, the posts occupied by intruders were clearly under Indian controlled territory. The so called self-righteousness is not entirely misplaced.

Conflict

The glacier is the highest battleground on earth[4][5], where India and Pakistan have fought intermittently since April 13, 1984. Both countries maintain permanent military personnel in the region at a height of over 6,000 metres (20,000 ft). More than 4000 people have died in this inhospitable terrain, mostly due to weather extremities and the natural hazards of mountain warfare.[citation needed]

Basis

The conflict in Siachen stems from the confusion in the improperly demarcated territory on the map beyond the map coordinate known as NJ9842. The 1972 Simla Agreement did not clearly mention who controlled the glacier, merely stating that from the NJ9842 location the boundary would proceed "thence north to the glaciers." UN officials presumed there would be no dispute between India and Pakistan over such a cold and barren region[6]

Oropolitics

In 1957 Pakistan permitted a British expedition under Eric Shipton to approach the Siachen through the Bilafond La, and recce Saltoro Kangri.[7] Five years later a Japanese-Pakistani expedition put two Japanese and a Pakistani Army climber on top of Saltoro Kangri.[8] These were early moves in this particular game of oropolitics.

The United States Defense Mapping Agency (now National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency) began in about 1967 to show, with no legal or treaty-derived justification or any boundary documentation, an international boundary on their Tactical Pilotage Charts available to the public and pilots as proceeding from NJ9842 east-northeast to the Karakoram Pass at 5,534 m (18,136 ft) on the China border. [9] Numerous governmental and private cartographers and atlas producers followed suit. This cartographic aggression resulted in the US cartographically "awarding" the entire 5,000 square kilometers (1,930 square miles) of the Siachen-Saltoro area to Pakistan.

In the 1970s and early 1980s several mountaineering expeditions applied to Pakistan to climb high peaks in the Siachen area as U.S army maps deliberately showed it on Pakistani side of the Line of Control, and Pakistan granted them. This in turn reinforced the Pakistani claim on the area, as these expeditions arrived on the glacier with a permit obtained from the Government of Pakistan. Teram Kangri I (7,465 m/24,490 ft) and Teram Kangri II (7,406 m/24,300 ft) were climbed in 1975 by a Japanese expedition led by H. Katayama, which approached through Pakistan via the Bilafond La.[10]

Indian government and military took note. Prior to 1984 neither India nor Pakistan had any permanent presence in the area. Once having become aware of this and the errant US military maps, Colonel N. Kumar of the Indian Army, then commanding the Army's High-Altitude Warfare School, mounted an Army expedition to the Siachen area as a counter-exercise. In 1978 this expedition climbed Teram Kangri II, claiming it as a first ascent in a typical 'oropolitical' riposte. Unusually for the normally secretive Indian Army, the news and photographs of this expedition were published in 'The Illustrated Weekly of India', a widely-circulated popular magazine.[11]

Fighting

The first public mention of a possible conflict situation in the Siachen was an abbreviated article titled "High Politics in the Karakoram" by Joydeep Sircar in The Telegraph newspaper of Calcutta in 1982[12]. The full text was printed as "Oropolitics" in the Alpine Journal, London, in 1984.[13]

India launched Operation Meghdoot (named after the divine cloud messenger in a Sanskrit play by Kalidasa) on 13 April 1984 when the Kumaon Regiment of the Indian Army and the Indian Air Force went into the glacier region. Pakistan quickly responded with troop deployments and what followed was literally a race to the top. Within a few days, the Indians were in control of the entire area, as Pakistan was beaten to all of the Saltoro Ridge high ground by about a week. The two northern passes - Sia La and Bilafond La - were quickly secured by India. Pakistan lost almost 900 square miles (2,300 km2) [14] to nearly 1,000 square miles (2,600 km2) of territory to India [15] Since then Pakistan has launched several attempts to displace the Indian forces, but with little success. The most well known was in 1987, when an attempt was made by Pakistan to dislodge India from the area. The attack was masterminded by Pervez Musharraf (later President of Pakistan) heading a newly raised elite SSG commando unit raised with United States Special Operations Forces help in the area.[16] A special garrison with eight thousand troops was built at Khapalu. The immediate aim was to capture Bilafond La but after bitter fighting that included hand to hand combat, the Pakistanis were thrown back and the positions remained the same. The only Param Vir Chakra - India's highest gallantry award - to be awarded for combat in the Siachen area went to Naib Subedar Bana Singh (retired as Subedar Major/Honorary Captain), who in a daring daylight raid assaulted and captured a Pakistani post atop a 22,000 foot (6,700 m) peak, now named Bana Post.[17]

Ground situation

In his memoirs, former Pakistani president, General Pervez Musharraf states that Pakistan lost almost 900 square miles (2,300 km2) of territory.[14] TIME states that the Indian advance captured nearly 1,000 square miles (2,600 km2) of territory claimed by Pakistan.[15]

Further attempts to reclaim positions were launched by Pakistan in 1990, 1995, 1996 and even in early 1999, just prior to the Lahore Summit. The 1995 attack by Pakistan SSG was significant as it resulted in 40 casualties for Pakistan troops without any changes in the positions. An Indian IAF MI-17 helicopter was shot down in 1996.

The Indian army controls all of the 70 kilometres (43 mi) long Siachen Glacier as well as all of its tributary glaciers as well as the three main passes of the Saltoro Ridge immediately west of the glacier, Sia La, Bilafond La, and Gyong La, thus holding onto the tactical advantage of high ground.[18]. [19] Gyong La (Pass) itself is at 35-10-29N, 77-04-15 E; that high point is controlled by India.

The Pakistanis control the glacial valley just five kilometers southwest of Gyong La. The Pakistanis have been unable get up to the crest of the Saltoro Ridge, while the Indians cannot come down and abandon their strategic high posts.

The line where Indian and Pakistani troops are presently holding onto their respective posts is being increasingly referred to as the Actual Ground Position Line(AGPL).[20][21]


~ Moriarty
 
Of course my friend, we did not forget the '65 defeat.
Now if you can strain those dormant process in the gray matter and get along a little further in history, just 6 years later in '71.....:guns:
Just so you remember!

~ Moriarty

Oh wow! this guy thinks he fought a war with Pakistan in '71.
Dude i don't call it a war. i call it dirty tactics!
Stabbing in the back as i have pointed out earlier somewhere else.
Name a war that we fought face to face and you have become successful.

So in short, whining will not make the 'history' blurred and '65s will never be forgotten:smokin:
 
Oh wow! this guy thinks he fought a war with Pakistan in '71.
Dude i don't call it a war. i call it dirty tactics!
Stabbing in the back as i have pointed out earlier somewhere else.
Name a war that we fought face to face and you have become successful.

So in short, whining will not make the 'history' blurred and '65s will never be forgotten:smokin:
and Kargil was not backstabbing! Occupying posts someone has left with trust that the other wont occupy it is not a dirty tactic! Its strategy huh?

1965 war was a staelmate. PAF performed beautifully! the army was not that great. The Indians performed Under par and thats why it was a stalemate!
 
Let me try: Muradji?:D

No the author is the same one (Air Commodore M. Kaiser Tufail) who has written the article that started this thread. I was just making a point that even those who have fought wars against India are not obsessed with wars as was stated by someone about Pakistanis.
 
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Hi there,
I said illegal for the sole reason that, AFAIK, there was a tacit understanding between the forces that posts along the LoC would be vacated in winter and reoccupied in spring with each others' knowledge. Now breaking that understanding would be illegal I suppose. I guess we also have a similar understanding with the Chinese forces on our eastern fronts.

And yes India did a very similar adventure in Siachen, but the difference is India solidified its hold on the territory while, Kargil- though a brilliant idea- was a total failure. It would have been another story if Pakistan had used legitimate forces and included the PAF in the planning and execution of this plan. But I would still doubt the outcome would be any different.

~ Moriarty

Moriarity,

There is no tacit understanding as such. In Siachen, posts have been vacated and then taken over by the other side. If the LoC was so sacrosanct and there was tacit understanding then why did India not return these same heights to Pakistan after taking them over in 1971? Who decided that use of force in 1971 to take these over was fine, but in 1999, it was not specially when your side was interdicting Pakistani supply of Siachen through the Neelum Valley?

This is the problem with the status of LoC due to the Kashmir conflict.
 
In your view then would it justify if India sends its troops to occupy positions already taken by Pakistan? Or perhaps that India strike at terror camps at ***? Because its not illegal, its not an IB?

There is legality and then there is morality. Pakistan tried to occupy places which were held by India, not empty land.

They were empty! See my above post about the Kargil heights. They belonged to Pakistan up until 1971. Why were they not returned to Pakistan if the discussion is about the morality of things?
 
and Kargil was not backstabbing! Occupying posts someone has left with trust that the other wont occupy it is not a dirty tactic! Its strategy huh?

1965 war was a staelmate. PAF performed beautifully! the army was not that great. The Indians performed Under par and thats why it was a stalemate!

First don't repeat wht i have already said. This tells me about your lower aptitude!
Second, i'll not waste my energies on you, and just copy paste a reply of mine here (which i already has given you in some other thread). Here it goes:

You call Kargil and Gibraltar 'stabbing in the back'??

that is known as War and Animus. We entered inside you, raptured you and left you to bleed.

The term you call 'stabbing' as regards to Kargil is known as SURPRISE you loser! Go read something known as tactics!
And if you also consider Gibraltar in the same context then again i feel sorry for you as that process is known as INFILTRATION taught as a Minor Operation of War all over the world armies, especially to special forces.

If you call supporting the Kashmiris 'back stabbing' you again are not less then a goof. We openly have admitted that we have and will support the Kashmiri cause.

Now let me tell you what back stabbing is.
The game you played in 71
The game you are playing in Balochistan.
The game you are playing in Wana.
The BS you planned in Mumbai attacks.
The screw up that you did with your Parliament in 2001.

Now please don't give me the same BS-ed reply that you gave me earlier!
 
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