Kargil: A Debacle or A Lost Opportunity?

[Renegade]

Here you go Renegade:

‘Kargil War: Battlefront’, Harinder Baweja, India Today, 12 July 1999.

I await your acknowledgment.

Now its my turn to ask for some verification.

I suggest you relate some sources for these dramatic and aggressive claims. Pakistani sources would be preferable, but neutral sources would do as well.

Thanks for the information, give me a little time to verify it. That point apart, what about the point raised by me about the torture of Lt.Sourabh Kalia and his men by soldiers of the PA. You and Xeric seem to have very conveniently ignored that point and choosing to divert attention away from it.

I have provided a video link that clearly talks about the torture of Lt.Saurabh Kalia. What is your reaction to that!!!! The proof about it clearly present at the moment, why shy away from discussing it.

CJ takes on India, Pak govts over torture of Kargil hero: IBNLive.com > Videos


As i see it in the broad outline of what we are discussing here are three specific points:


1. The torture of Lt.Sourabh Kalia & five other Indian soldiers by the PA during kargil.

2. My claims of mistreatment of the NLI personnel during Kargil i.e
their bodies being quietly delivered to their homes and they
being buried with out any military honors and recognition.

3. The alleged torture of a PA regular by the IA during kargil. As
alleged by you. (I am still in the process of verifying that).


why don't we debate the points in this order -as proof for the first allegation is readily available. And it is only fair, that i provide proof for the points that i have raised and i will do so. What say??

 

[fatman17]

Kargil: defeat after victory

Kargil may have been a military victory 10 years ago, but as Musharraf’s admission shows, it wasn’t a diplomatic one. And India may be set to repeat this.

A decade ago, when Indian forces launched a counteroffensive against Pakistani infiltrators around Kargil in Jammu and Kashmir, India was fuming at its western neighbour. Eight months have passed since Pakistani militants perpetrated an assault in Mumbai, and India is still fuming. And it still remains unable to decide the terms on which it interacts with Pakistan.

By the time the army declared victory in Kargil on 26 July 1999—now celebrated as Vijay Diwas (Victory Day)—India was infused with new patriotism and armed with a strong hand in diplomacy. But all this seemed to diffuse over the following months and years; India was never able to hold Pakistan accountable. Sound familiar?

Kargil may have been a military victory for us, but it wasn’t converted into a diplomatic one. In a TV interview this weekend, former Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf went as far as to call Kargil a success—for Pakistan. He said: “How did we start discussing the Kashmir dispute? How was it that the Indians came, that we will discuss Kashmir and there must be a negotiated settlement? Before this, there was no such thing at all. Kashmir couldn’t be spoken (of).”

Musharraf also admits that the regular Pakistani army was involved in Kargil: But that doesn’t come as a surprise to anyone in India. What is surprising, though, is the clarity with which Musharraf—and, it’s safe to say, the entire military-jihadi complex in Pakistan—views bilateral relations unfolding since Kargil. “I think the Indian leadership then perceived that Pakistan is beyond coercion,” he said, forcing New Delhi to start dialogue with Islamabad. The same US pressure that led to Pakistan’s tactical defeat in Kargil actually proved to be Pakistan’s strategic victory by later bringing India to the negotiating table.
That cycle in India’s history may just be repeating itself all over again. What should have been a decisive diplomatic victory for India after 26/11 has renewed pressure from the US—particularly the Obama White House—on Kashmir. And if our government is now claiming that bilateral agreements are mere diplomatic papers without much strategic import, as it did last week regarding the accord signed with Pakistan in Egypt, then it’s Pakistan that should have been celebrating vijay diwas this weekend.

Does India’s military victory in Kargil mean anything?

@livemint.com

 

[tharkee]

Kargil: defeat after victory

Kargil may have been a military victory 10 years ago, but as Musharraf’s admission shows, it wasn’t a diplomatic one. And India may be set to repeat this.

A decade ago, when Indian forces launched a counteroffensive against Pakistani infiltrators around Kargil in Jammu and Kashmir, India was fuming at its western neighbour. Eight months have passed since Pakistani militants perpetrated an assault in Mumbai, and India is still fuming. And it still remains unable to decide the terms on which it interacts with Pakistan.

By the time the army declared victory in Kargil on 26 July 1999—now celebrated as Vijay Diwas (Victory Day)—India was infused with new patriotism and armed with a strong hand in diplomacy. But all this seemed to diffuse over the following months and years; India was never able to hold Pakistan accountable. Sound familiar?

Kargil may have been a military victory for us, but it wasn’t converted into a diplomatic one. In a TV interview this weekend, former Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf went as far as to call Kargil a success—for Pakistan. He said: “How did we start discussing the Kashmir dispute? How was it that the Indians came, that we will discuss Kashmir and there must be a negotiated settlement? Before this, there was no such thing at all. Kashmir couldn’t be spoken (of).”

Musharraf also admits that the regular Pakistani army was involved in Kargil: But that doesn’t come as a surprise to anyone in India. What is surprising, though, is the clarity with which Musharraf—and, it’s safe to say, the entire military-jihadi complex in Pakistan—views bilateral relations unfolding since Kargil. “I think the Indian leadership then perceived that Pakistan is beyond coercion,” he said, forcing New Delhi to start dialogue with Islamabad. The same US pressure that led to Pakistan’s tactical defeat in Kargil actually proved to be Pakistan’s strategic victory by later bringing India to the negotiating table.
That cycle in India’s history may just be repeating itself all over again. What should have been a decisive diplomatic victory for India after 26/11 has renewed pressure from the US—particularly the Obama White House—on Kashmir. And if our government is now claiming that bilateral agreements are mere diplomatic papers without much strategic import, as it did last week regarding the accord signed with Pakistan in Egypt, then it’s Pakistan that should have been celebrating vijay diwas this weekend.

Does India’s military victory in Kargil mean anything?

@livemint.com

So is it suggesting that Pakistan either uses terrorism or backstabbing as a tool to initiate dialog?

 

[Zob]

So is it suggesting that Pakistan either uses terrorism or backstabbing as a tool to initiate dialog?

BACKSTABBING???? hey LOC is disputed territory where anyone who can take a few inches is allowed to do so....we LEARNT this from you in 1984 when you "backstabbed" in SIACHEN.... and please lets not bring 1971 into this....

 

[Zob]

@renegade


ok please spare me the crap we realsed KASHMIR SINGH in return we got mutilated bodies of KHALID MEHMOOD & MOHAMMED AKRAM....

so these claims of US torturing your prisoners are mere indian propaganda!!


http://****.in/wtf/2008/03/10/dead-khalid-mehmood-a-gift-in-return-of-kashmir-singh/

 

[tharkee]

So is it suggesting that Pakistan either uses terrorism or backstabbing as a tool to initiate dialog?

BACKSTABBING???? hey LOC is disputed territory where anyone who can take a few inches is allowed to do so....we LEARNT this from you in 1984 when you "backstabbed" in SIACHEN.... and please lets not bring 1971 into this....

Why whine about Siachen then...that was fair game as well...we got your ***** whipped in Kargil.

Please read through sharifs drama that he put up before Kargil...THAT is Backstabbing.

 

[Zob]

1. It is hard to say exactly what the stated objectives were, since a public (an unbiased one specifically) has not come from Pakistan. However, it is assumed that the idea was to rekindle the armed struggle and by taking the vantage area of Kargil heights, almost cut indian troops in siachen, thereby perhaps use it as a possible bargaining chip to restore parity in the area.

2. Naive assumptions made by Pak planners were that India would either react much like iin '65 op. gibraltar starting a full scale war, perhaps gambling that they could win the war with USA support and China's as well. The other assumption would have been to take it to UN and state the conditions by highlighting Kargil. Exactly what they thought is a mystery since the objectives of the war itself is confusing.

If you ask me I don't know why they started the kargil infiltration in the first place without a plan. I assume they didn't even have a plan B. They must have been smug with their A plan they could have patted themselves on the bag and started the conflict.

well this is your OWN take on the issue my friend....so think what you want....

 

[Zob]

Why whine about Siachen then...that was fair game as well...we got your ***** whipped in Kargil.

Please read through sharifs drama that he put up before Kargil...THAT is Backstabbing.

who is whinning about SIACHEN?? what drama please elaborate!!!! and drama well like i said i don't want to get into drama that unfolded in 1971!!! "THE INDIAN MORAL HIGH GROUND" whatever that means!!!

let's stick to kargil buddy....

 

[tharkee]

who is whinning about SIACHEN?? what drama please elaborate!!!! and drama well like i said i don't want to get into drama that unfolded in 1971!!! "THE INDIAN MORAL HIGH GROUND" whatever that means!!!

let's stick to kargil buddy....

http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-forces/9167-siachen-glacier-fighting-roof-world.html

plz go through the above thread and you'll find our pakistani friends crying themselves hoarse about the siache episode...maybe you could convince them it was fair game.

And then kargil is a non issue in every sense, your army ran away when challenged....wheres the controversy in it...huh!

 

[Zob]

@tharkee


see the problem is this attitude!!!!

our army ran away when challenged....wheres the controversy in it...huh!


see this is why we can't have a debate because you use words that show your childish mentality!!!

i know we have whiners on both sides!! i say its simple siachen & kargil both are fair play....BUT if we go down and want to get our hands dirty in crap & want to talk about back stabbing and what not...then my friend SIACHEN HAPPENED way before kargil....so i guess the first mover has the advantage of being a back stabber!!!

now as for RUNNING AWAY!!! well i guess you don't know much about mountain warfare do you!!! have a look at the video and you might get an idea i think you are smart enough to find the rest of the parts on youtube!!

we withdrew because of an inept leader who freaked out under pressure from the USA!!


its simple my firend you admit Siachen is wrong and i will admit KARGIL was a wrong operation however if you say siachen is right then i guess kargil operation is also correct in every aspect....

 

[tharkee]

@tharkee


see the problem is this attitude!!!!

our army ran away when challenged....wheres the controversy in it...huh!


see this is why we can't have a debate because you use words that show your childish mentality!!!

i know we have whiners on both sides!! i say its simple siachen & kargil both are fair play....BUT if we go down and want to get our hands dirty in crap & want to talk about back stabbing and what not...then my friend SIACHEN HAPPENED way before kargil....so i guess the first mover has the advantage of being a back stabber!!!

now as for RUNNING AWAY!!! well i guess you don't know much about mountain warfare do you!!! have a look at the video and you might get an idea i think you are smart enough to find the rest of the parts on youtube!!

ODgqxmKwHTw[/media] - THE LOST EVIDENCE (THE BATTLE OF MONTE CASSINO 1/5)


we withdrew because of an inept leader who freaked out under pressure from the USA!!


its simple my firend you admit Siachen is wrong and i will admit KARGIL was a wrong operation however if you say siachen is right then i guess kargil operation is also correct in every aspect....

Ok I agree with you kargil and siachen are fair play. This point raised by some members that siachen was back stabbing doesnt hold water.

I did go through some threads and saw some members trying to portray Siachen as a violation, there'll always be whiners on both sides.

 

[Zob]

exactly so siachen and kargil are fair play because it is LOC and whoever whenever can seize an initiative should and would!! so any agression along the LoC is fair play is all i say...i hope you agree.....

if you do then we can move on to the next question and talk.....

 

[tharkee]

exactly so siachen and kargil are fair play because it is LOC and whoever whenever can seize an initiative should and would!! so any agression along the LoC is fair play is all i say...i hope you agree.....

if you do then we can move on to the next question and talk.....

Yeah it is fair play...unless you promise one thing at the highest level and carry out the opposite.

 

[Zob]

ok so you admit its fair play so operation Gibraltar in 1965 was fair and 1971 was indian backstabbing!! and we promise nothing....because LoC is disputed and anyone who can take it should take it...however, siachen should be dimilitarized & both sides should sign a document stating that status quo as it existed before 1984(Siachen) should be followed & operations such as Kargil can be conducted unless and until LoC dispute is solved...

 

[maverick2009]

Kargil showed weaknesses for both nations.

For india being so naieve leaving its bunkers unoccupied during winter. The secret service no awareness of Mushraffs Plans. Indias where fooled by sweet talking about opening up borders the indian Gov,t/Miliary where damn fools and grossly incompetent.

For Pakistan a total lack of comprehension/ reading that India would simply sit back and do nothing. They underestimated India,s Resolves to win back Kargil.

The other main point was the shock that Various elements of your Air force or Navy where not involved in planning and not even aware. So where basically un prepared for a Full War escalation.

The other Question did you withdraw because of

USA pressure OR India,s threat to escalate war and Cross the LOC. ??

i THINK IT WAS BOTH you where worried about USA diplomatic support for india and the poor shape of both PAF & NAVY...