Kargil: A Debacle or A Lost Opportunity?

[spsk]

ok so you admit its fair play so operation Gibraltar in 1965 was fair and 1971 was indian backstabbing!! and we promise nothing....because LoC is disputed and anyone who can take it should take it...however, siachen should be dimilitarized & both sides should sign a document stating that status quo as it existed before 1984(Siachen) should be followed & operations such as Kargil can be conducted unless and until LoC dispute is solved...

Kid, LOC is not disputed. LOC is settled long before 40 years back, Who told who ever wants to take it can take it hehehe, Come on man,Stop joking.... You are saying as if soldiers can walk in with a Pakistani flag and claim its their territory. Hmm I would say Kargil is just an example how Pakistan can be trusted.

 

[Renegade]

@ Kasrkin

Dude its been a week already and you still haven't replied to my post (No.331), in this thread. Awaiting your answer.

 

[pakomar]

Kid, LOC is not disputed. LOC is settled long before 40 years back, Who told who ever wants to take it can take it hehehe, Come on man,Stop joking.... You are saying as if soldiers can walk in with a Pakistani flag and claim its their territory. Hmm I would say Kargil is just an example how Pakistan can be trusted.

LOC is not a recognize border line. It is not a recognize border because Pakistan do not expect the India occupied Kashmir and India do not expect Pakistan azad Kashmir.
But affords are being made to make it a recognizable border line.

 

[Kasrkin]

I have provided a video link that clearly talks about the torture of Lt.Saurabh Kalia. What is your reaction to that!!!! The proof about it clearly present at the moment, why shy away from discussing it.

The matter of alleged torture of Indian prisoners has already been addressed in great detail in this very thread. You haven't provided anything that matches the credibility of what I've provided through Indian and neutral sources. Its a report from an Indian Channel, I haven't even bothered watching it, and I won't. As a rule, when it comes to debating facts you cannot use partial sources i.e. your media to 'prove' anything, especially not something I've already refuted through non-partial references. If I had used a PTV bulletin to 'prove' that Pakistani soldiers were mutilated, you could've dismissed it, just like other Indians will no doubt dismiss reports of IAF intrusions that were splattered all over our media. But I, in fact, have used an Indian narrative to show that Indian soldiers were involved in un-ethical conduct. That's something you still haven't been able to comment on, which is no surprise. But this childishly confrontational attitude of yours is not like-able, don't delude yourself into thinking that you're capable of embarrassing me through these Indian reports, because thats not the spirit or purpose of this forum. We can have factual and mutually beneficial debates where views are presented and debated, but this is not a point scoring contest where you feel the need to 'get one over me', because thats certainly not what I've been doing here.

My claims of mistreatment of the NLI personnel during Kargil i.e their bodies being quietly delivered to their homes and they
being buried with out any military honors and recognition.

You have no moral or factual authority to make these claims. They represent a particularly vulgar form of propaganda effort by the Indian side that is not grounded in fact. Repeating such here will only get you in trouble, as Agnostic Muslim has already made clear in the previous discourse on the thread.

I hope that clarifies the situation. I'll be happy to address anything if you've got any concrete material to back up your beliefs or to disregard mine. Until then, I suggest you pursue a more constructive discussion.

 

[shravan]

I hope that clarifies the situation. I'll be happy to address anything if you've got any concrete material to back up your beliefs or to disregard mine.

Karsin,

Pakistani Government even hesitated to accept the remains of Captain Colonel Sher Khan and Havaldar Lalak Jan.

So I think what Renegade is saying must be true.

 

[Kasrkin]

Shravan, I'll just repeat what I said, you're welcome to 'think' whatever you want. But I'm only going to address that which is more than hearsay, something which can be substantiated. I've made all my views more than clear if you go a few pages back. Thanks.

 

[shravan]

Shravan, I'll just repeat what I said, you're welcome to 'think' whatever you want. But I'm only going to address that which is more than hearsay, something which can be substantiated. I've made all my views more than clear if you go a few pages back. Thanks.

Investigating Kargil

At best, Kargil was a tactical surprise -- beyond that it failed at the strategic level. After some hesitation and denials, we accepted the mortal remains of Captain Colonel Sher Khan and Havaldar Lalak Jan and honoured them with the highest gallantry awards, as praise for their courage by the enemy was becoming too embarrassing. There was of course no compunction or embarrassment in promoting/rewarding the four generals largely perceived to bear prime responsibility for the fiasco.

The writer is a retired vice-admiral and former vice-chief of the Naval Staff, Pakistan Navy. Email: tajkhattak@gmail.com
---

 

[Kasrkin]

Good of you to post from a Pakistani source shravan, but that is nothing I didn't already know. Furthermore it is no where near the contention of "mistreatment of the NLI personnel during Kargil i.e their bodies being quietly delivered to their homes and they being buried with out any military honors and recognition" being made here. You can't take one thing from a source and ignore another from the very same source. The admiral made clear that they were honored by the highest gallantry wards which in itself precludes the possibility of 'no military honors and recognition'. The whole of the NLI was integrated into the regular army solely in honor and recognition for their participation in Kargil, the supposition that this, and more, was all done due to Indian pressure or due to the impact of Indian psych-ops on troop morale is dubious at best. Therefore, it is not for Indians to decide what was honor enough and what wasn't, it is very unseemly, not to mention distasteful, to make sweeping, unsubstantiated accusations, particularly when India's own treatment of those of the NLI soldiers was less than honorable. We're all very aware of the facts and the ground realities at the time, however, we will not give room for imaginative and objectionable assumptions.

I hope we understand each other Shravan.

 

[arihant]

LOC is not a recognize border line. It is not a recognize border because Pakistan do not expect the India occupied Kashmir and India do not expect Pakistan azad Kashmir.
But affords are being made to make it a recognizable border line.

Sorry but your sentence is misleading. India even recognize the part of Baltistan, Gilgit and the left Azad Kashmir as India's Jammu & Kashmir.

Yes, LOC is not a international border but its just de facto - actual ground controlled border. Most likely no one will like to go back from their current control, hence probably LOC will be made international border if talks resume and final decision is made.

 

[shravan]

I hope we understand each other Shravan.

Yup.

Even if i wanted to reply, i could not write ( play with words.. ) like you ...

 

[Renegade]

The matter of alleged torture of Indian prisoners has already been addressed in great detail in this very thread. You haven't provided anything that matches the credibility of what I've provided through Indian and neutral sources. Its a report from an Indian Channel, I haven't even bothered watching it, and I won't. As a rule, when it comes to debating facts you cannot use partial sources i.e. your media to 'prove' anything, especially not something I've already refuted through non-partial references. If I had used a PTV bulletin to 'prove' that Pakistani soldiers were mutilated, you could've dismissed it, just like other Indians will no doubt dismiss reports of IAF intrusions that were splattered all over our media. But I, in fact, have used an Indian narrative to show that Indian soldiers were involved in un-ethical conduct. That's something you still haven't been able to comment on, which is no surprise. But this childishly confrontational attitude of yours is not like-able, don't delude yourself into thinking that you're capable of embarrassing me through these Indian reports, because thats not the spirit or purpose of this forum. We can have factual and mutually beneficial debates where views are presented and debated, but this is not a point scoring contest where you feel the need to 'get one over me', because thats certainly not what I've been doing here.

Neither i intend this debate to be a point scoring contest. Having said that, you doubt about the neutrality of the news video is understood - but if you go through the video you will clearly see what i am talking about. In the video the family of Lt.Sourabh Kalia who received his body allege torture, claims which the GoI backs and had even raised the issue with GoP. Lt.Kalia's brother clearly describes the state of the body as it was received - mentioning that it clearly bore marks of torture and that the body was so bad disfigured that he decided that his mother should not see the body. Only his family speaks in the video and there are no people from the government or the IA who make such accusations. On the contrary the family of Lt. Kalia clearly accuse the GoI of not doing enough to bring the perpetrators to justice. Here is the mother & brother of a soldier describing her grief over her sons torture, you surely cant accuse her of using her sons death for propaganda.

Watch the video and then make up your mind weather it is propaganda or the truth, just absolutely rubbishing something even before seeing and experiencing it serves no purpose.

You have no moral or factual authority to make these claims. They represent a particularly vulgar form of propaganda effort by the Indian side that is not grounded in fact. Repeating such here will only get you in trouble, as Agnostic Muslim has already made clear in the previous discourse on the thread.

I hope that clarifies the situation. I'll be happy to address anything if you've got any concrete material to back up your beliefs or to disregard mine. Until then, I suggest you pursue a more constructive discussion.

As i outlined earlier this debate is centered on three points and i intend to give proof for ever accusation i make. But before we proceed further with the other two points - i have provided good material (proof for me) about the first point. Why shy away from debating that??

 

[Renegade]

Good of you to post from a Pakistani source shravan, but that is nothing I didn't already know. Furthermore it is no where near the contention of "mistreatment of the NLI personnel during Kargil i.e their bodies being quietly delivered to their homes and they being buried with out any military honors and recognition" being made here. You can't take one thing from a source and ignore another from the very same source. The admiral made clear that they were honored by the highest gallantry wards which in itself precludes the possibility of 'no military honors and recognition'. The whole of the NLI was integrated into the regular army solely in honor and recognition for their participation in Kargil, the supposition that this, and more, was all done due to Indian pressure or due to the impact of Indian psych-ops on troop morale is dubious at best. Therefore, it is not for Indians to decide what was honor enough and what wasn't, it is very unseemly, not to mention distasteful, to make sweeping, unsubstantiated accusations, particularly when India's own treatment of those of the NLI soldiers was less than honorable. We're all very aware of the facts and the ground realities at the time, however, we will not give room for imaginative and objectionable assumptions.

I hope we understand each other Shravan.

I have proof for what i have said and i will present it. Just waiting for your reply on the Lt.Kalia issue first.

 

[Comet]

A Lost Opportunity.....sigh!

 

[DbnReaper]

Did Kargil truly serve any military or political purpose for Pakistan? What was the intent of the Pakistan army in sending in a few of their army personnel dressed as terrorists into Indian territory? They obviously did not expect to win over territory with those handful of men. In my research I have yet to find any logical reason given or suggested by any Pakistani or Indian official on the reasons for the infiltration of Kargil.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Kargil ......

Here is what happened , winter ended, so soliders from both side were suppose to come back , one party came in earlier then other , and since there are no official marking on the place,

They could have mistakenly set an outpost I mean we are talking about a rocky region


Now as usual , the India media started to mirch masala the news some fake news were reported in local media , which turned out to be 100% lies later

I mean realistically , do you really think Pakistani forces would have left the out post by war ? They already had the place secured.

They just debated the issue , and just decided to back to origional location big deal ...

then BOLLYWOOD and went crazy

I think the biggest problem in India is their HYPER Media ...

Realistically if Pakistan wanted to suprise India , they would have just nuked them up , in all major cities , and then do a second strike before indians reacted that did not happened

Just a major confusion

I think Mushy explained that to every one when he tried to bring ppl close , then the stupid mumbai thing happened ....I mean

I am bored of this rivalry we need something new