Karakorum - 8 (K-8) | Jet Trainer Aircraft.

[Incog_nito]

Those are all great aircraft but the k-8 is better when you do a cost benefit analysis; especially if you consider that sensors and weapons matter more then the platform up to a point

K-8 are great in the plains because we already have them, and we just need to add the sensors and weapons. We need to keep costs down so we can procure enough assets (weapons and sensors, and new platforms where needed) to deal with the threat; 8 integrated Battle Groups; Brigade to Division sized, organized on the Soviet Motorized Rifle Battalion model, IMHO.

In the mountains using a turboprop which is just fast enough to chase down a helicopter (100 mph speed advantage to the turboprop) but slow enough and maneuverable enough to do "hit and run" and land on short mountain roads, after diving into mountain valleys to do evasive maneuvers.

The planes are just platforms, but they have to be tailored to the terrain and the threat.

Btw: here is the article on the Yemeni use of the R-27
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...h-r-27-air-to-air-missile-modified-into-a-sam

Also, either aircraft should be armed with the Chinese CM-501GA; a 40 km standoff weapon similar to the Spike NLOS, that can take out key elements of enemy forces, such as air defenses or command and control from a distance, so that our forces can have a better chance dealing with the enemy.

You are somewhat right. But what I quote is mainly for the training purpose. K-8s are good option to keep them in fleet and use them as multi-purpose machines.

 

[FuturePAF]

You are somewhat right. But what I quote is mainly for the training purpose. K-8s are good option to keep them in fleet and use them as multi-purpose machines.

For the Close Air Support the key will be loiter time, but still a manned platform so that jamming can not potentially disable the platform as with a uav.

You are right that Pakistan does have a requirement for a LIFT aircraft. The question that arises is will the LIFT platform be able to fit all the weapons required for the secondary CAS mission. For that reason and for ease of maintenance, perhaps a JF-17 variant would be the ideal platform.

On the other hand, The M-345 seems like a more affordable platform, and with its straight wings, could loiter longer. Hence being better for the CAS mission.

The M-346 seems a larger but more expensive M-345. With its better avionics it maybe the best platform of the three as it can also carry a heavier load then the M-345.

 

[Incog_nito]

For the Close Air Support the key will be loiter time, but still a manned platform so that jamming can not potentially disable the platform as with a uav.

You are right that Pakistan does have a requirement for a LIFT aircraft. The question that arises is will the LIFT platform be able to fit all the weapons required for the secondary CAS mission. For that reason and for ease of maintenance, perhaps a JF-17 variant would be the ideal platform.

On the other hand, The M-345 seems like a more affordable platform, and with its straight wings, could loiter longer. Hence being better for the CAS mission.

The M-346 seems a larger but more expensive M-345. With its better avionics it maybe the best platform of the three as it can also carry a heavier load then the M-345.

• M-346 is Advanced Jet Trainer & LIFT with CAS Capability.
• M-345 is Basic & Intermediate Jet Trainer with CAS Capability.

Both are somehow the best fit for PAF and have different roles to perform.

 

[FuturePAF]

• M-346 is Advanced Jet Trainer & LIFT with CAS Capability.
• M-345 is Basic & Intermediate Jet Trainer with CAS Capability.

Both are somehow the best fit for PAF and have different roles to perform.

The M-346 maybe a better choice. We need a LIFT, we need a CAS platform. That can carry a heavier load with enough power to carry it within a flight envelope that maximize options; able to fly higher for longer range, etc. The M-346 may have Breyer sensors such as a modern Aesa radar and avionics. So overall the M-346 seems to fit many of our needs

 

[Incog_nito]

The M-346 maybe a better choice. We need a LIFT, we need a CAS platform. That can carry a heavier load with enough power to carry it within a flight envelope that maximize options; able to fly higher for longer range, etc. The M-346 may have Breyer sensors such as a modern Aesa radar and avionics. So overall the M-346 seems to fit many of our needs

You are right. But we need both M-345 & M-346; just M-346 in more numbers like some for specialized roles.

• 50-80 M-346 as Dedicated CAS Capability.
• 50 M-346 as Advanced Jet Trainer & LIFT with limited CAS Capability.
  
• 50 M-345 as Basic & Intermediate Jet Trainer with limited CAS Capability.

But L-39NG is also a good option which PAF was looking seriously in the past to acquire for CAS operations especially in the Western side of Pakistan.

 

[Ultima Thule]

The M-346 maybe a better choice. We need a LIFT, we need a CAS platform. That can carry a heavier load with enough power to carry it within a flight envelope that maximize options; able to fly higher for longer range, etc. The M-346 may have Breyer sensors such as a modern Aesa radar and avionics. So overall the M-346 seems to fit many of our needs

And also expensive,recently PAF/PAKISTAN shown a interest to Chinese L-15 for our LIFT and CAS role and one version of it equipped with PESA

 

[FuturePAF]

And also expensive,recently PAF/PAKISTAN shown a interest to Chinese L-15 for our LIFT and CAS role and one version of it equipped with PESA

The L-15 can also be a good option as well, but it should be equipped with an AESA from the start to prevent it from being jammed in the CAS role. L-15 can also serve as an EW platform, freeing up the JF-17 to do the fighter role.

You are right. But we need both M-345 & M-346; just M-346 in more numbers like some for specialized roles.

• 50-80 M-346 as Dedicated CAS Capability.
• 50 M-346 as Advanced Jet Trainer & LIFT with limited CAS Capability.
  
• 50 M-345 as Basic & Intermediate Jet Trainer with limited CAS Capability.

But L-39NG is also a good option which PAF was looking seriously in the past to acquire for CAS operations especially in the Western side of Pakistan.

K-8 and Hurkus maybe best for the Western Border, but a higher end (modern avionics and data-links) platform would be best for a conflict with India. either the K-8 can be upgraded to that level, or the M-346 or L-15 can be acquired with modern sub-systems.

 

[Ultima Thule]

The L-15 can also be a good option as well, but it should be equipped with an AESA from the start to prevent it from being jammed in the CAS role. L-15 can also serve as an EW platform, freeing up the JF-17 to do the fighter role.

On customer request, may be if PAF ask to fit L-15 with AESA so there is a option fr L-15 named LFK601E

 

[khanasifm]

Take fcu k-8 and install Grifo-7 from f-7 and hands on throttle and stick and use it as LIFT with 800 km max speed and good landing and take off speed should be good enough

end of story

I am sure paf know what right , spoke to someone he said cost wise k-8 Engine is as good as turbo prop and speed wise it close combat speed 450 knots

it may need more powerful engine in certain regime but paf with small budget cannot afford adding new aircraft for small 20/30 fleet of new type better to stick to same type

 

[AsifIjaz]

Does anyone have an idea about how gud is the ukranian al225 product compared to the honeywell engine 731-4 currently used on the k8.
If my memory doesnt fail me then motor sich was preparing 2 new variants with one having an afterburner as well..
On the other hand there are variants of the honeywell engine which might enable us "theoretically " to get a better output from our existing ones like rd93 or just may be upgrade the current ones or use the newer variants during overhaul.
Either motor sich engines (Itar free) or a better product from honeywell may allow us to upgrade existing or make newer k8 and install a pesa/aesa with newer avionics and etc..
If china agrees then the lessons learned from thunder production can be used to make k8 wing roots and wing more stronger with better manufacturing techniques and using composites while retaining the same aerodynamic profile. This i believe wud be the most cost effective solution.

 

[GriffinsRule]

03-809 K-8 under overhaul at PAC

 

[Haris Ali2140]

@GriffinsRule @Quwa @Dazzler
Hey what about Hurjet as a LIFT platform???

These are specs from official site:

FEATURES
- High AoA controllability
- Head-Up Display (HUD)

- Helmet Mounted Display (optional)

- Full authority, Digital Fly-by-Wire FCS

- State-of-the-art HMI, minimum conversion time to F-35 and TF

- Intra & Inter datalink

- NVG compatible (AJT, LIFT)

- Aerial refueling

- Carefree handling

- Embedded Tactical Training & Live Virtual Constructive Training Systems

- APU for autonomous operation also from austere airfield

ROLES

• Advanced Jet Trainer
• Lead-in Fighter Trainer
• Light Attack (Close Air Support)
• Red Aircraft
• Air Policing (Armed & Unarmed)
• Acro Team Aircraft

 

[Incog_nito]

@GriffinsRule @Quwa @Dazzler
Hey what about Hurjet as a LIFT platform???

These are specs from official site:

FEATURES
- High AoA controllability
- Head-Up Display (HUD)

- Helmet Mounted Display (optional)

- Full authority, Digital Fly-by-Wire FCS

- State-of-the-art HMI, minimum conversion time to F-35 and TF

- Intra & Inter datalink

- NVG compatible (AJT, LIFT)

- Aerial refueling

- Carefree handling

- Embedded Tactical Training & Live Virtual Constructive Training Systems

- APU for autonomous operation also from austere airfield

ROLES

• Advanced Jet Trainer
• Lead-in Fighter Trainer
• Light Attack (Close Air Support)
• Red Aircraft
• Air Policing (Armed & Unarmed)
• Acro Team Aircraft

is this for K-8?

 

[Haris Ali2140]

is this for K-8?

No. For Hurjet.

 

[Incog_nito]

No. For Hurjet.

is PAF interested in it?