Karakorum - 8 (K-8) | Jet Trainer Aircraft.

[denel]

Hi,

I believe Mozanbique Mig19 was manufactured without gunsight computer---because the russians did not want them to have it---otherwise the russian had the gunsight computer they ogt from the downed F86 sabre during the Korean war---.

Did the Paf f6 have a gunsight computer?

 

[MastanKhan]

Did the Paf f6 have a gunsight computer?

Hi,

I am pretty sure that it did.

Here is a find from somewhere.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3090021&postcount=123

"When the target enters the radar locking range, the sight will show the target mark and the "lock" (3AXBAT) lamp will turn on. A small instrument left of the sight will indicate target range. The target mark needs to be in the center of the rings for correct aiming. When the distance to target is within fire parameters, the "fire" lamp will turn on. The system is designed to engage aircraft in clouds and at night, so no need to visually adquire the target. The sight can range by radar or by optics"

 

[FuturePAF]

If Pakistan switches to the Z-10, it should also try to procure the Turkish Hurkus-C to be able to field its CAS weapons on a similarly decent platform.

In the Gilgit-Baltistan area, the high mountain valleys create an ideal place for a platform like the Hurkus to show off its +7/-3G agility when trying to hunt down enemy Apaches and Transport helicopters, and still operate from mountain roads, hiding in small hidden bunkers, similar to the Swiss Air Force. Even a small fleet of 30 Hurkus could disrupt any Indian plans to move troops and helicopters to try to take Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan. The Hurkus could also shot down any Indian paratrooper planes, in the even of an Airborne Invasion.

The Hurkus can carry up to 1500 kg of stores, so it could conceivably carry the new 25 km ranged highly agile Turkish WVR missile. If this missile is developed into two variants like the MICA missile, IR and RF, it could be very potent against the Helicopter threat. (Pakistan and Turkey could test this out in exercises with Qatar against their Apache Ah-64E Helicopters, similar to the ones India is procuring). The Hurkus could operate like mini-SAM sites that literally Pop-up to deal with Enemy threats, and dive for valleys with roads to hide in prepared bunkers, similar to the way the Swiss Air Force Operated in the Cold war. The Hurkus have a more than 100 mph speed advantage over the Apaches. If down the line a AESA pod were attached, the full 65 km Turkish BVR missile could be added to really make the Hurkus like a pop-up SAM Site. It wouldn't be used as a true fighter, but like a special forces sniper, hiding away to take the right shots at the right time.

The Hurkus would be a way to give Turkey a different contract while we switch to the Z-10. With the threat of the Hurkus, K-8 in the CAS role armed similarly in the plains, and the Attack Helicopters, it would be a very formidable defense for any Indian Cold Start / Integrated Battle Group to have to deal with.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_Hürkuş#Variants

Pakistan should not limit itself to just attack helicopters. UCAV would also be good but they are nearly equally priced as the Hurkus, and with manned platforms you can more easily deal with heavy enemy jamming your data-links. Also, you can probably land more reliably in the mountains with the wind shears, and don't have to worry about losing satellite connection with The Aircraft in the mountain valleys.

On a side note, a platform like the Hurkus could also be used, if stationed in the north to deal with any miscreants on our Western border if Afghanistan starts to become unstable, and a threat emerges out of there.

 

[Kabotar]

If Pakistan switches to the Z-10, it should also try to procure the Turkish Hurkus-C to be able to field its CAS weapons on a similarly decent platform.

In the Gilgit-Baltistan area, the high mountain valleys create an ideal place for a platform like the Hurkus to show off its +7/-3G agility when trying to hunt down enemy Apaches and Transport helicopters, and still operate from mountain roads, hiding in small hidden bunkers, similar to the Swiss Air Force. Even a small fleet of 30 Hurkus could disrupt any Indian plans to move troops and helicopters to try to take Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan. The Hurkus could also shot down any Indian paratrooper planes, in the even of an Airborne Invasion.

The Hurkus can carry up to 1500 kg of stores, so it could conceivably carry the new 25 km ranged highly agile Turkish WVR missile. If this missile is developed into two variants like the MICA missile, IR and RF, it could be very potent against the Helicopter threat. (Pakistan and Turkey could test this out in exercises with Qatar against their Apache Ah-64E Helicopters, similar to the ones India is procuring). The Hurkus could operate like mini-SAM sites that literally Pop-up to deal with Enemy threats, and dive for valleys with roads to hide in prepared bunkers, similar to the way the Swiss Air Force Operated in the Cold war. The Hurkus have a more than 100 mph speed advantage over the Apaches. If down the line a AESA pod were attached, the full 65 km Turkish BVR missile could be added to really make the Hurkus like a pop-up SAM Site. It wouldn't be used as a true fighter, but like a special forces sniper, hiding away to take the right shots at the right time.

The Hurkus would be a way to give Turkey a different contract while we switch to the Z-10. With the threat of the Hurkus, K-8 in the CAS role armed similarly in the plains, and the Attack Helicopters, it would be a very formidable defense for any Indian Cold Start / Integrated Battle Group to have to deal with.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_Hürkuş#Variants

Pakistan should not limit itself to just attack helicopters. UCAV would also be good but they are nearly equally priced as the Hurkus, and with manned platforms you can more easily deal with heavy enemy jamming your data-links. Also, you can probably land more reliably in the mountains with the wind shears, and don't have to worry about losing satellite connection with The Aircraft in the mountain valleys.

On a side note, a platform like the Hurkus could also be used, if stationed in the north to deal with any miscreants on our Western border if Afghanistan starts to become unstable, and a threat emerges out of there.

That work can be done by K8.

 

[FuturePAF]

That work can be done by K8.

The K-8 can do it well in the plains, but in the mountains, the Hurkus is more agile, has longer endurance, and can carry a heavier load. consider landing capable roads maybe limited for the K-8 in the mountains, the Hurkus maybe a better option for just that particular region.

For the rest of the country, the K-8 is just fine, but we need a very capable platform to blunt enemy options in an area they have expressed an intention to invade.

 

[FuturePAF]

The Hurkus/k-8 would also need smart (AI enabled) loitering munitions to help take out enemy forces, why the manned platform maneuvers to launch more munitions or escape the threat environment. These munitions can be fitted with different sensors and extend the eyes and touch of the CAS platform. They would be a force multiplier when we need to maximize our capabilities with the limited resources we have.

 

[Readerdefence]

The K-8 can do it well in the plains, but in the mountains, the Hurkus is more agile, has longer endurance, and can carry a heavier load. consider landing capable roads maybe limited for the K-8 in the mountains, the Hurkus maybe a better option for just that particular region.

For the rest of the country, the K-8 is just fine, but we need a very capable platform to blunt enemy options in an area they have expressed an intention to invade.

Hi is it not possible for AAD to use their shoulder fired sam to cover the Apache scenario if the Houthis can deal with KSA Apache surely Pakistan can do the same what kind of system they can use
Your input will be appreciated
Thank you

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi is it not possible for AAD to use their shoulder fired sam to cover the Apache scenario if the Houthis can deal with KSA Apache surely Pakistan can do the same what kind of system they can use
Your input will be appreciated
Thank you

The houthis probably used a more advanced missile, not a man pad. The Apache is very good at defeating manpads, usually. Also the way Saudi was using the Apache doesn’t seem well planned out. The saudis are also attacking guerrilla forces. With a uniformed army, the Pakistani army will need a system like the Chinese version of Tor to adequately deal with Apaches; the FM-2000 recently displayed in the October 2019 parade in Beijing.

Having said this, the Apache can use different tactics to shoot and scoot when attacking our forces. Hence why we need CAS planes to go out and knock down enemy helicopters before they can attack our forces.

the Indian strategy is a copy of Soviet/Russian motor rifle division tactics to attack NATO, mixed with some tactical Israeli techniques. If we study how NATO responded and is currently responding to this threat we will learn how to counter it.

 

[FuturePAF]

If a dual mode Seeker can be equipped to the Turkish WVR missile, then only a few missiles would need to be carried, and each missile would have a much higher probably of hitting the target. It would free up space for other munitions, so that the Hukus or K-8 can carry more fuel and loiter longer, or carry more munitions and each platform would be even more lethal to the enemy.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa)
Bilal Khan (Quwa), What do you think of the Hurkus idea? (starting from post 828)
Why the Indians wont have as large a IR signature as the Saudi F-15s or Tornados, extensive training with the Qatari Apache AH-64E will allow the PAF to know how to handle that platform, and from what range and what system.

Btw: use of WVR missiles like a SAM has good returns: The Yemenis are using R-27s against the Saudi F-15s and Tornados, even downing a Tornado recently.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...h-r-27-air-to-air-missile-modified-into-a-sam

https://warisboring.com/the-houthis-do-it-yourself-air-defenses-3/

Here is a Saudi Apache (Saudis don't operate cobras if I'm not mistaken) shot down with presumably the same IR guided WVR Missile used as a SAM

 

[GriffinsRule]

If a dual mode Seeker can be equipped to the Turkish WVR missile, then only a few missiles would need to be carried, and each missile would have a much higher probably of hitting the target. It would free up space for other munitions, so that the Hukus or K-8 can carry more fuel and loiter longer, or carry more munitions and each platform would be even more lethal to the enemy.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa)
Bilal Khan (Quwa), What do you think of the Hurkus idea? (starting from post 828)
Why the Indians wont have as large a IR signature as the Saudi F-15s or Tornados, extensive training with the Qatari Apache AH-64E will allow the PAF to know how to handle that platform, and from what range and what system.

Btw: use of WVR missiles like a SAM has good returns: The Yemenis are using R-27s against the Saudi F-15s and Tornados, even downing a Tornado recently.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...h-r-27-air-to-air-missile-modified-into-a-sam

https://warisboring.com/the-houthis-do-it-yourself-air-defenses-3/

Here is a Saudi Apache (Saudis don't operate cobras if I'm not mistaken) shot down with presumably the same IR guided WVR Missile used as a SAM

Looks like it comes down to poor tactics and lack of situational awareness. The Tornado ejected flares early but seems to have taken no evasive actions. The Apache didn't eject any flares at all.

 

[FuturePAF]

Looks like it comes down to poor tactics and lack of situational awareness. The Tornado ejected flares early but seems to have taken no evasive actions. The Apache didn't eject any flares at all.

Hence the need for a more robust missile when using them on a CAS platform where advanced enemy helicopters maybe operating

 

[Readerdefence]

The houthis probably used a more advanced missile, not a man pad. The Apache is very good at defeating manpads, usually. Also the way Saudi was using the Apache doesn’t seem well planned out. The saudis are also attacking guerrilla forces. With a uniformed army, the Pakistani army will need a system like the Chinese version of Tor to adequately deal with Apaches; the FM-2000 recently displayed in the October 2019 parade in Beijing.

Having said this, the Apache can use different tactics to shoot and scoot when attacking our forces. Hence why we need CAS planes to go out and knock down enemy helicopters before they can attack our forces.

the Indian strategy is a copy of Soviet/Russian motor rifle division tactics to attack NATO, mixed with some tactical Israeli techniques. If we study how NATO responded and is currently responding to this threat we will learn how to counter it.

Hi thanks for your detailed input against my Q but what’s your take any idea what kind of houthis were using against Apache my thoughts were if you are already on certain height with a more effective shoulder missile it’s quite possible to scared the opponents
Though I do agree to the CAS role but if it’s not possible can K/8 fill that gap to some extent
Thank you

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi thanks for your detailed input against my Q but what’s your take any idea what kind of houthis were using against Apache my thoughts were if you are already on certain height with a more effective shoulder missile it’s quite possible to scared the opponents
Though I do agree to the CAS role but if it’s not possible can K/8 fill that gap to some extent
Thank you

See videos above, they are using the R-27 IR Guided missile.

Manpads are good against very low and slow targets that don’t have the most modern defenses.

the k-8 is good In the plains as it doesn’t have to land in the mountains. The Hurkus would be better at endurance and can lower its speed enough to safely land in short roads as well as dealing with the wind shears in the mountains. As a manned platform, jamming won’t be as much issue because even if a datalink is lost, its on board sensors are still adequate to get the job done, where as a drone would not be able to operate if the datalink were lost.

 

[Incog_nito]

What about the idea of acquiring Italian trainers to complement the current fleet of Jet Trainers?

• 50: M-345 (Basic & Intermediate Jet Trainer)
• 50: M-346 (Advance Jet Trainer & LIFT)
• 30-50 JF-17B (LIFT & JF-17 Conversion)

 

[FuturePAF]

What about the idea of acquiring Italian trainers to complement the current fleet of Jet Trainers?

• 50: M-345 (Basic & Intermediate Jet Trainer)
• 50: M-346 (Advance Jet Trainer & LIFT)
• 30-50 JF-17B (LIFT & JF-17 Conversion)

Those are all great aircraft but the k-8 is better when you do a cost benefit analysis; especially if you consider that sensors and weapons matter more then the platform up to a point

K-8 are great in the plains because we already have them, and we just need to add the sensors and weapons. We need to keep costs down so we can procure enough assets (weapons and sensors, and new platforms where needed) to deal with the threat; 8 integrated Battle Groups; Brigade to Division sized, organized on the Soviet Motorized Rifle Battalion model, IMHO.

In the mountains using a turboprop which is just fast enough to chase down a helicopter (100 mph speed advantage to the turboprop) but slow enough and maneuverable enough to do "hit and run" and land on short mountain roads, after diving into mountain valleys to do evasive maneuvers.

The planes are just platforms, but they have to be tailored to the terrain and the threat.

Btw: here is the article on the Yemeni use of the R-27
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...h-r-27-air-to-air-missile-modified-into-a-sam

Also, either aircraft should be armed with the Chinese CM-501GA; a 40 km standoff weapon similar to the Spike NLOS, that can take out key elements of enemy forces, such as air defenses or command and control from a distance, so that our forces can have a better chance dealing with the enemy.