Kamorta class corvettes for VPN ?

[Aepsilons]

Some more pictures of the Hateruma Class;

 

[Ayan81]

Amigo, the Vietnamese aquired the Gepard Class Light Frigate , which has a tonnage of only 1.5 tonnes.

Remember, the Hateruma-Class is 1.3 tonnes, but full displacement is around 1.5 tonnes.

If Philippines wanted to convert the Hateruma-Class into Heavy Corvettes, it can.

Pare, are you sure the Hateruma Class is the one being build? 90 meter is huge. im expecting it around 40-50m and the bizan class fits the bill.

 

[SrNair]

Those Kamortas look bitching good.

And also expensive.VN also need to check their budget and priorities.
They have Kilo class Subs and we are training their Officers and sailors.Perhaps they looking for more kilo class from Russia.Every vessels have its own advantage.You cant sacrifice other basic systems for a corvette.
Perhaps that is why they are looking for hybrid.

 

[William Hung]

too bad its in the form of ODA so its impossible to convert this ship to the navy.

Who cares, just install some compact SAM, CIWS, some SSM and still call it a CG boat.

Then it would be the complete opposite to the Gregorio del Pilar class lol.

 

[Aepsilons]

 

[William Hung]

he he he, technically, if they added CIWS Phalanx, purchased Japanese Anti Ship Missiles (SSM-1Bs), this ship could be converted to a Light Corvette. Heck if they even decided to install Harpoon SSM launchers, then perhaps bought our ASROC octuplet launchers,....they could convert these 10 'light corvettes' into DEADLY all-round vessels. With ASW capability.

Remember that these ships can host helicopters, so it can host ASW choppers.

If it is indeed this class, then why not? 30knot max speed is already in the corvette/missile boat class.

 

[Carlosa]

Can you give us the name of this forum and thread?.

You guys, I made a file with all the info from our Indian friends about that Kamorta hybrid for VN, Its easier when all the info is all together. I made the bold letters. Here it is:

Kamorta / OPV hybrid debate

By Rising Sun:

The ones for the Indian navy don't carry antiship missiles, but for Vietnam, they would need to have them.


Already operating in IN. It has a anti ship main gun with effective range being 20 to 25 km. Plus it has torpedo tubes and India has long range torpedo for such purpose against sub as well as ship. It has powerful radar system and inbuilt physical stealth plus IR suppressors as well. So enemy will have to come really close if they want to detect it first. While this ship can position itself in favorable place of its own choice. And its main effectiveness is anti air capability against supersonic and hypersonic missiles against shipping with anti sub warfare being strongest point. Thank you.

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These will not be Kamorta class vessels, rather boats offered are based on Sukanya class which can even fire ballistic missiles leave aside antiship missiles. So no worries on that part. What India has offered to Vietnam is far much more formidable than what China has supplied to its friendly countries. Who else will sell stealth design with IR suppressor while carrying VLS missile deck. Items on offer are anti missile system, Radar, anti ship missile, above 100 km range torpedo (this is what earlier I had given hint in earlier post), main gun super effective against anti ship cruise missiles, helicopter integrated with ship, land attack capability, anti submarine warfare capability. Anti ship missiles will be limited in numbers to save space, 8 at max. But torpedo will be the most deadly weapon against ships. All integrated in secure networked ship management system.

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Long range anti ship missile is always there but a ship will have to detect first this type of boat. Even Indian surface fleet was not able to detect it from 100 km range, then they had to venture much closer to only detect it, forget to attack. This is where its strength lies, hide and attack with excellent maneuverability while countering aerial and sub surface threats using BARAK 8 and long range sensors in cooperation with torpedo. Vietnam doesn't need to go to east china sea to defend its areas, though this boat has all resources to handle threats far from friendly shores in battle groups.

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This kind of boat is housing freaking ballistic missiles on board, then there is no way that it can't house and fire anti ship missiles. So that is not a worry.

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It is neither Kamorta class corvette nor Sukanya class patrol boat. Rather it is enlarged boat with hybrid capabilities of both classes. Thank you.

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Kolkata is still need to complete its perfection . Follow up would be Kochi and Bangalore.And like you said it is expensive.Perhaps we cant reject a possibility of such a deal in future. But now due to the cost and also for Chinese that would too much provocative.Kolkata Class destroyer has

32 Brahmos VLS and 64 Barak 8MRSAM capability.That 7500 tons destroyer would increase capabilities of VN several fold.

Let see .We like such a deal in future.


Vietnam doesn't have the luxury of strategic depth for such heavy class boat when enemy is so close. What it needs is multi role frigates and anti access patrol boats with SSKs. Plus land based dedicated anti shipping jets. Thank you.

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VN ship will not have ballistic missile as it doesn't have that much tracking and guidance system in place at the time. But that will free space for other weapons whose number can be increased significantly.

—————————Carlosa said: ↑

That ballistic Dhanush missile is probably quite unstoppable at the typical speed of a ballistic missile.


It is not actually a ballistic missile but a quasi ballistic one with depressed trajectory. Is much faster than Brahmos and slower than typical ballistic missile. It has active seeker also.

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Its displacement should be around 3500 minimum and 4500 maximum in full load ton depending on what kind of hardware VN orders under Indian credit system. This is proven design, only enlarged with stealth tech.

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The Kamorta can be configured as a multi-role frigate. Imo, if both the Philippines and VN choose wisely, they could get a AESA equipped Kamorta + Brahmos + Barak-8 for under $500million, basically a mini-aegis. I dont think anything in the SCS can match this power except for the 052D.


Bramhos is way too costly to maintain. Rather what is offered on the table is pretty different. Weapons against enemy ship fired underwater with secret actual tracking.

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Please do not get your hopes too high. We intend to provide the best we have but what VN orders that also matters. If they order lesser one then it will be somewhere forth generation enlarged patrol vessel (only in the name as IN designated patrol vessels are equal to other countries biggest frigates). That is the lesser one which can be ordered.

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3500 - 4500 sounds great, a heavy frigate.


In Indian terminology it is still called patrol vessel. And yes final order is still not freezed but it is confirmed that it will have mixture of tech borrowed from our best available tech in GSL.



If GOI comes into the plate, then sky is limit, we can even put a 1000 km long range missile in this boat too if it comes to that. But yes realistically speaking we can only provide what VN wants after all. They will be the end user. But I can say that yes it will be stealth (not the level of Kamorta) with Sukanya capabilities. Why not Kamorta? only because VN is looking for something else and IN order book is full for now. If VN can ask for local boat building then it will be golden chance for her and India too.

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India has given the alternative options and VN can come with its own final requirement but base hull will be same for first four and second batch boats. Four boats in first order. Second order should come around 2020 I believe as there is minimum two years gap between two stage boats.

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Is it 6 ships?


No, first one is four boat. Second stage will be bigger in number as VN will be adopting Indian strategy in inducting the boats over a period of time. So we can think it should be around 8 ships of same class with batch up gradation. And believe me GSL is by far most competent shipbuilder (naval forces) in India.

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I am just a normal guy with abnormal way of assimilating information. Anyway happy to help you.

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I don't think it is possible to sell 6 Kamorta class ships... Shipyards already have their hands full and i don't know how much capacity we would be able to add in the immediate future.


As I said we are not transferring Kamorta exactly. It is different boat with some overlapping capabilities. And yes our shipyards are full but only MDL, CSL and GRSE.

GSL has pretty effective work management so they have extra time to provide simmilar boats in short time.

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Now, this is unrelated to the 4 offshore patrol vessels and that $100 million credit line right?


No, it is same four boats for initial order and later order will be for minimum 3 but full order will be spread over a period of ten years max. So late to late 2022-25 VN will be operating 8 such kind of boats.

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Brahmos will be overkill and will only increase issues for VN. Instead of going jingoistic we should be realistic. We can put all the hardware but from where are we going to put so many sensors. They also need space which is an issue in a patrol vessel even if big size one. There is a far more deadlier weapon but VN needs to put it in requirement.

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By Kaku1, etc:

For now we heard about the purchasing 4 OPVs from India.

Perhaps this deal must be in secret talks.You know our over aggressive ,self proclaimed Super Power in North cant digest these developments .

So they may dont interested in making things public.

You know you cant compromise in quality of export version.

And unlike in India VN need a lot of firepower .And this deal would be a fulfilled in future.

So you will get customised version of Kamorta having Brahmos VLS and also new Barak 8MRSAM.

6 of such ships would be enough for securing any instant adventure of self proclaimed Super power.Both in sea and also in air.

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Bro, Kamotra definitely can held 8 BrahMos (300 KM with steep dive, and up to 500 KM in hi-hi mission), by removing 2 RBU-6000 and up to 16 Barak 8. And Barak 8 is not a normal SAM, it designed to protect the whole fleet like CBG.



Most of the 2000-3000 ton frigate provide hand held air defense not VLS based SAM. Pohang class or Maestral class is nothing but sitting duck against hybrid Kamotra, they cant provide that much weapon package. If its goes in the hand of VN, then it will be nightmare for PLAN, and best VN's A2/AD

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Not that cheap at $350 million.


For the exact amount of money you can easily buy a hybrid OPV/Kamorta class frigate along with all the goodies including Klub-S/Kh-35 AShM.Plus all the censors and the radar will definitely be of Israeli made.Then there'll be Barak-8 SAM. too.But if V.P.N. opts for the Brahmos package then it will cost you guys say another $50 miilion.Still it will be much better to get a hybrid Karmorta/OPV class frigate than the Sigma class for a mere $50 millions more

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Lol, the Naval Version of BrahMos Block 3, also cost the same, $5 mil, and for India that is costly also. Thats why India developing Nirbhay, low cost and high range. Only cost at $1mil. In future BrahMos is going to be specified only for HVT and for secondary or long range targets Nirbhay will be used.

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Or are you guys talking about that stretched out (105m version) GSL 75m OPV thats based on the Saryu?


Bro, nope. Because IN never wanted a frigate based on Kamotra structure, it going with P-17A project, and future deployment of BrahMos-2 and Barak-8 ER, which is going to be the range of 120 Km.



The hybrid model is only a design, if VN wants that, The 2 RBU-6000 will be removed and 8 cell VLS can be added in that space.

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are you guys talking about that stretched out (105m version) GSL 75m OPV thats based on the Saryu?


Right now i can't find any picture of this hybrid in the internet.But one thing is clear the frigate that'll be offered to V.P.N. will definitely be a Kamorta/OPV hybrid and it'll be significantly larger than the 105 m OPV model developed by GRSE having a far more deadlier weapons package and a world class electronic suite and an AESA radar most probably of Israeli origin. I heard this from an ex Indian Navy officer in another Indian forum.

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[William Hung]

And also expensive.VN also need to check their budget and priorities.
They have Kilo class Subs and we are training their Officers and sailors.Perhaps they looking for more kilo class from Russia.Every vessels have its own advantage.You cant sacrifice other basic systems for a corvette.
Perhaps that is why they are looking for hybrid.

The export version of the Kamorta will not be expensive. GRSE is currently bidding for the Philippines tender ($420 million for two ships, excluding armaments).

If VietNam add in armaments and radar such as MF-Star, Barak-8 and torpedos, it would probably still be around $350 million for 1 ship, which is the price of the Sigmas.

 

[Carlosa]

And also expensive.VN also need to check their budget and priorities.
They have Kilo class Subs and we are training their Officers and sailors.Perhaps they looking for more kilo class from Russia.Every vessels have its own advantage.You cant sacrifice other basic systems for a corvette.
Perhaps that is why they are looking for hybrid.

Not Kilos, VN is now looking at the Amur 950 and Amur 1650.

 

[Carlosa]

Who cares, just install some compact SAM, CIWS, some SSM and still call it a CG boat.

Then it would be the complete opposite to the Gregorio del Pilar class lol.

US coast guard vessels carry missiles, so why not Philippines?

 

[Carlosa]

The export version of the Kamorta will not be expensive. GRSE is currently bidding for the Philippines tender ($420 million for two ships, excluding armaments).

If VietNam add in armaments and radar such as MF-Star, Barak-8 and torpedos, it would probably still be around $350 million for 1 ship, which is the price of the Sigmas.

Have to also keep in mind that the Kamortas were expensive because there were a lot of developmental issues and delays, that's all over now and they should be cheaper to make.

 

[Ayan81]

If it is indeed this class, then why not? 30knot max speed is already in the corvette/missile boat class.

i just hope this is really the one being build

 

[Aepsilons]

i just hope this is really the one being build

I believe that it is. Because Mitsui Shipbuilding Corp is building 10 right now...

 

[William Hung]

US coast guard vessels carry missiles, so why not Philippines?

Coast guard boats armed to the teeth and navy frigates without any SSMs or air defence.

This would make an excellent tactic to confuse the Chinese navy and CG lol.

i just hope this is really the one being build

@Nihonjin1051 said he is ex-JMSDF, so why not? he may have contacts in the industry.

 

[Carlosa]

Coast guard boats armed to the teeth and navy frigates without any SSMs or air defence.

This would make an excellent tactic to confuse the Chinese navy and CG lol.

Ha Ha that sounds great !