K8 Karakoram

[z9-ec]

 

[Owais]

looks lovely
I wana see a BVR Missile on both wings

 

[fatman17]

Pakistan receives 8 Chinese-made jet trainers

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) said it received delivery of an additional eight Chinese-made jet trainers on Friday, evident of the close military ties between Pakistan and China. The planes, known as Hongdu JL-8s in China and Karakoram K-8P in Pakistan, were formally handed over at an unidentified PAF base, according to a statement from the Air Force public relations office. The planes are one of the two models that have been jointly designed by the two countries. ap

 

[mean_bird]

I had put this question in the other thread but since this is the proper K-8 thread so let me repeat.

Since K8 is a joint pakistan/china project and quite an old one, how comes we still are getting these planes from china? We want to manufacture a multi-role fighter plane here but cant build a trainer jet? and that too as we are acquiring quite a few of K8 so it makes sense to build them here, no?

So my question is
1. Do we manufacture any part of the K8 or is it totally build in china?
2. The facility to build the JF-17, is it a new one? if not what other project have been carried out in that location?

 

[mean_bird]

looks lovely
I wana see a BVR Missile on both wings

lol

and probably with an aesa radar and TVC too, right?

 

[TOPGUN]

Good news ! & nice pics mashallah!

 

[Tempest II]

I had put this question in the other thread but since this is the proper K-8 thread so let me repeat.

Since K8 is a joint pakistan/china project and quite an old one, how comes we still are getting these planes from china? We want to manufacture a multi-role fighter plane here but cant build a trainer jet? and that too as we are acquiring quite a few of K8 so it makes sense to build them here, no?

So my question is
1. Do we manufacture any part of the K8 or is it totally build in china?
2. The facility to build the JF-17, is it a new one? if not what other project have been carried out in that location?

PAF has about 40 K-8s. We don't know how many they plan to have in the next 5 or 10 years. The planes Zimbabwe bought were at $4.2m each. PAF will get them cheaper because they invested in the development. If say, they get the planes about 25% cheaper, it means PAF would have saved about $40m on the 40 planes. Now, how much does it take to build the factory, buy the equipment, train the people and keep the line running? Very likely more than the $40m they would be saving, i.e. overall, it is cheaper to buy from China.

Compare that with JF-17. Say PAF could buy the planes for $20m each from China, and make them for $15m each at Kamra = $5m savings per plane. $5m x 150 = $750. If they go for 250 planes the savings will be $1.25b and for 300 planes = $1.5b.

Even if it costs $100m to set-up and run the factory, making the JF-17 to meet PAF requirements would be every businessman's dream. Not the same for the K-8's numbers.

Also, considering that PAF have know the JF-17 is coming, it would be the more important project and they you have decided to put manufacturing efforts/resources there instead. Aircraft making skills? ... ... they knew JF-17 was on the way, to give them better skills than from the K-8s.

Please note some numbers I have used are estimates, so do not take them as facts. However, I believe this is/was the reasoning.

 

[fatman17]

your reasoning is correct. building K-8s at PAC just dosnt make sense. now the question is, these new birds are they still being fitted with western engine and avionics suite or are these birds now 100% chinese!

 

[fatman17]

lol

and probably with an aesa radar and TVC too, right?

why dont we make K-8 the front-line fighter too!

 

[wangrong]

I had put this question in the other thread but since this is the proper K-8 thread so let me repeat.

Since K8 is a joint pakistan/china project and quite an old one, how comes we still are getting these planes from china? We want to manufacture a multi-role fighter plane here but cant build a trainer jet? and that too as we are acquiring quite a few of K8 so it makes sense to build them here, no?

So my question is
1. Do we manufacture any part of the K8 or is it totally build in china?
2. The facility to build the JF-17, is it a new one? if not what other project have been carried out in that location?

PAF

K8 40+
JF17 150+

Egypt

K8E 120+

so

 

[wangrong]

 

[jamal18]

I had put this question in the other thread but since this is the proper K-8 thread so let me repeat.

Since K8 is a joint pakistan/china project and quite an old one, how comes we still are getting these planes from china? We want to manufacture a multi-role fighter plane here but cant build a trainer jet? and that too as we are acquiring quite a few of K8 so it makes sense to build them here, no?

So my question is
1. Do we manufacture any part of the K8 or is it totally build in china?
2. The facility to build the JF-17, is it a new one? if not what other project have been carried out in that location?

Initially the plan was for pakistan to have its own production line, but this plan was later shelved as it was considered uneconomical.

Pakistan produces about 40% of the parts for the k-8; whether these are used for pakistani k-8's , or all k-8's produced in china, I don't know.

When the country was under US embargo, the plan was to replace all T-37 basic trainers with K-8's asap, as spare parts for the t-37 would not be available. My guess is that as it is now easier to keep the T-37's flying, the rate of induction of the K-8 is slower that it was planned back then.

Everybody considers the technical aspect of defence production, few consider the economic one.

 

[jamal18]

Oh, I forgot, the chinese K-8's have a Ukrainian engine, soon to be replaced with a chinese one.

Pakistani K-8's have an US engine, as do all the export versions.

 

[mean_bird]

Thanks for your responses guys; My question was based on the following things. Anyway, I got the answer from another source (link quoted below). Its a nice (thought outdated) history of PAF during the 90s and early 2000s due to various sanctions.

here's the link: How China keeps the PAF flying

PAF has about 40 K-8s. We don't know how many they plan to have in the next 5 or 10 years. The planes Zimbabwe bought were at $4.2m each. PAF will get them cheaper because they invested in the development. If say, they get the planes about 25% cheaper, it means PAF would have saved about $40m on the 40 planes. Now, how much does it take to build the factory, buy the equipment, train the people and keep the line running? Very likely more than the $40m they would be saving, i.e. overall, it is cheaper to buy from China.

.....

Also, considering that PAF have know the JF-17 is coming, it would be the more important project and they you have decided to put manufacturing efforts/resources there instead. Aircraft making skills? ... ... they knew JF-17 was on the way, to give them better skills than from the K-8s.

Well, according to various sources on the internet Pakistan is to procure from 40-100 of these which is a sizeable number. Also if we count export prospects, it would be much larger.

Joint designing and production of the K-8 (Karakoram) advanced jet trainer by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra, and China's Nanchang Aircraft Manufacturing Company (NAMC). The current manufacture is being done at the NAMC. Pakistan had earlier unilaterally developed a similar aircraft, but sought a partnership with China to further advance production and technology standards of that aircraft. It first flew in 1990 and is intended to completely replace the T-37s in service with the PAF by 2005. The total order for the PAF may reach upto 100 aircraft.

So with around a 100 aircraft, the assembly line wouldn't have been that costly. Also, just as china is producing it and we are buying it, it could have been the other way round too. How comes its economically feasible for china to produce it and not for us, considering that we had a major portion of the design, and its not that advanced a plane for us to not be able to manufacture.

Secondly, I don't think an assembly line has to be built from scratch to be able to manufacture it. Modern day assembly lines are quite flexible and with some upgrades can built different components. I mean NAMC must have a dedicated assembly line to build these, that could have been used for other things too.

* AMF manufactures certain sub-assemblies for the K-8. The aircraft, described as an intermediate and advanced jet trainer, is assembled in China, with its parts being made in both countries. Plans call for Pakistan's share in the co-production of the aircraft to be increased from the present 25 per cent to 45 per cent by 2001, following which the plane would be considered for assembly at Kamra.

* Earlier, PAC officials had dropped plans to set up an assembly line for the K-8 at Kamra due to various constraints, including infrastructure problems. Instead, it had been decided that the PAC would increase its share in the production of high-value components, including fin, horizontal stabilizer, elevator, engine cowling and spare parts support.

* When Mushaf Ali Mir took over as DG PAC, however, he pushed hard for going ahead with the plan to assemble the K-8 in Pakistan. Export sales of PAC-assembled K-8s, he argued, could become a source of substantial foreign currency earnings for Pakistan. As air chief, he would now be in a better position to ensure that this message gets to be heard in the highest quarters of the Pakistan government.

that was also my point.

Initially the plan was for pakistan to have its own production line, but this plan was later shelved as it was considered uneconomical.

Pakistan produces about 40% of the parts for the k-8; whether these are used for pakistani k-8's , or all k-8's produced in china, I don't know.

When the country was under US embargo, the plan was to replace all T-37 basic trainers with K-8's asap, as spare parts for the t-37 would not be available. My guess is that as it is now easier to keep the T-37's flying, the rate of induction of the K-8 is slower that it was planned back then.

Everybody considers the technical aspect of defence production, few consider the economic one.

True that but doesnt replacement of all the T-37s enhance the feasibility of having the assembly lines?

Anyway, thanks for your answers again. My initial question was based on seeing the K8 being listed on the PAC kamra website and reading the (seemingly) conflicting news of its import. But that article and your replies answers my questions.

 

[chindit]

How is the flight safety record of the K-8 with the PLAAF? I know its very good with the PAF but do the chinese also have good safety record?