What's new

Jinnah, secularism and Islamic modernism: YLH

Status
Not open for further replies.

SoulSpokesman

SENIOR MEMBER
Joined
Dec 1, 2016
Messages
3,631
Reaction score
-15
Country
India
Location
India
Other Rules
https://dailytimes.com.pk/736976/jin...mic-modernism/

On 7 February 1935 Mr. Jinnah declared “religion is a matter merely between man and god and should never be allowed in politics”. This was a life long position. In 1920 it was on this basis Jinnah had broken away from Gandhi, when the latter began using religion in politics.

What happened in the 12 years leading up to Partition is well known. As H M Seervai, the great Indian constitutional lawyer, wrote: It was Nehru and Patel who stood for partition and it was Mr Jinnah who stood for a United India. This is a statement from India’s finest constitutional lawyer who overturned the so called conventional wisdom on partition. If one carefully studies the Transfer of Power Papers and the work of Dr Ayesha Jalal it becomes clear as day that Jinnah tried till the very end to come to an honourable settlement with the Indian National Congress but his efforts were spurned. AG Noorani, Indian Supreme Court lawyer and journalist extraordinaire, has written in some detail about it and his arguments are unimpeachable.

Jinnah, the only politician to be called the Best Ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity, was committed to secular polity all his life. Gokhale had said about him :

“Jinnah has true stuff in him, and that freedom from all sectarian prejudice which will make him the best ambassador of Hindu-Muslim Unity.” To argue that he suddenly turned into an Islamist is a terrible reduction of history. It is true that Jinnah did argue on several occasions after partition that the kind of state he had in mind, inclusive and democratic, was not in conflict with Shariat and this was a Muslim modernist’s vision. This was a vision that held that modern democracy and human rights were in perfect conformity with the spirit of Islam. Many famous Muslim figures have held this view since late 19th Century. Midhet Pasha, Sir Syed Ahmad Khan, Jamaluddin Afghani and Syed Ameer Ali amongst others were proponents of this view. Even Kemal Ataturk, addressing his followers from the pulpit in 1919 declared that Islam was a faith of reason and logic that did not stand in the way of modern republicanism. It was this quest that led Ataturk to commission a wholly Turkish translation of the Holy Quran to be distributed amongst the Turks in the early 1930s. Ataturk and Jinnah, leaders of predominantly Muslim majority nation states, had to couch their modernist ideas in language that was comprehensible to the common Muslims in their countries. Ataturk had explained this strategy in his famous 8 day speech in 1928 reversing his own policy having introduced a state religion in the Turkish Constitution in 1924.

Secularism means the impartiality of the state to religion. While it has been postulated as a complete separation of religion and state, even the US Supreme Court recognizes that at times religion has a secular purpose. Secular purpose jurisprudence holds that where religion serves a secular purpose, i.e. not primarily religious, cannot come at the expense of religious freedom of one group or another.

Consider the example of Great Britain. It is a secular state and yet the Anglican Church is woven into the British Constitution. All of the Scandinavian states similarly have Lutheranism built into their constitutional structure but in terms of secularism they are considered far more secular than United States of America. Sweden, Norway, Finland and Denmark do not have the kind of rigid separation of state that USA does and despite that US remains a far more religious country than these states. Secularism does not take one form. There is the French and US models, which stand in sharp contradiction to Britain, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland. Yet the latter are far more secular than the former, as I said earlier. This is one of life’s great mysteries that can be resolved only when we see the histories of these countries separately without reference to one model or the other.

That Jinnah wanted Pakistan to be a secular state is an undeniable fact whether Pakistanis or Indians deny it, for their own very different reasons. 4 days before Independence Jinnah had written to Lord Mountbatten to make changes to Pakistani oath of office. He had asked for the reference to God to be removed from his oath of office and also that of the ministers. Presumably this was because he did not want to set a precedent by which only believers would become the heads of states, prime ministers or ministers in the state. The alternative of course is that he himself was not a believer. Since Jinnah was an extremely private person who did not wear his religion on his sleeve, we will never know for sure. The second change was that the words “solemnly swear” were changed to “solemnly affirm”. The difference is something we lawyers are well aware. To swear is to swear to a deity such as God. To affirm does not do so. Interestingly Indian oaths of office retained both references. It is a searing irony that today Pakistan has an elaborate religious oath of office in complete contradiction to what Jinnah had wanted in 1947. It was not always like this. The first two constitutions of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan did not have state religions. In 1973 all of this changed when state religion was introduced. Jinnah would never have wanted that.

Then again contradicting Jinnah is a bit of a habit for Pakistanis. As I have written on numerous occasions, in 1944, in response to a question about Ahmadis, Jinnah had famously said “Who am I to declare someone a Non-Muslim, if he professes to be a Muslim”. We all know who his right hand man was. Sir Zafrullah Khan, Pakistan’s first Foreign Minister, was as devout an Ahmadi as they come. In complete contrast to this we passed the second amendment to the Constitution in 1974 declaring them Non-Muslim for the purposes of law and constitution. In 1984 the military dictator promulgated the ordinance XX which was entirely contradictory to the Constitution’s protections. This Ordinance violates not just Article 20 of the Constitution but also violates all laws of natural justice. Under this law Ahmadis’ places of worship are destroyed both by the mobs and the states and even their graves are desecrated. It is a strange law that prohibits the reading of the Quran and erases Kalimas from buildings. Had it been in any other country, our rulers would be crying out “Islamophobia”.

Regards
 
YLH and his magnificent delusions..
 
Oh man would indian ever stop that crap why dont you look at your so called secular crap state where muslims cant get job in gov simply cuz of their religion.
This country is gift from Allah to people living here or accept it Quaid e Azam was just a tool to acheive this Pakistan which is Islamic republic, it will remain Islamic,
if any of you have any problem with Pakistan being islamic state then get the hell out of PDF cry this agenda on Indian forum..
 
@Sheikh Rauf

Rauf bhai,

Oh man would indian ever stop that crap why dont you look at your so called secular crap state if any of you have any problem with Pakistan being islamic state then get the hell out of PDF cry this agenda on Indian forum..

The author of this piece is a Pakistani citizen and has been published in a Pakistani newspaper. Please ask your own citizens to stop calling for a secular Pakistan and your own newspapers to publish such.

Regards
 
https://dailytimes.com.pk/736976/jin...mic-modernism/

On 7 February 1935 Mr. Jinnah declared “religion is a matter merely between man and god and should never be allowed in politics”. This was a life long position. In 1920 it was on this basis Jinnah had broken away from Gandhi, when the latter began using religion in politics.

What happened in the 12 years leading up to Partition is well known. As H M Seervai, the great Indian constitutional lawyer, wrote: It was Nehru and Patel who stood for partition and it was Mr Jinnah who stood for a United India. This is a statement from India’s finest constitutional lawyer who overturned the so called conventional wisdom on partition. If one carefully studies the Transfer of Power Papers and the work of Dr Ayesha Jalal it becomes clear as day that Jinnah tried till the very end to come to an honourable settlement with the Indian National Congress but his efforts were spurned. AG Noorani, Indian Supreme Court lawyer and journalist extraordinaire, has written in some detail about it and his arguments are unimpeachable.

Jinnah, the only politician to be called the Best Ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity, was committed to secular polity all his life. Gokhale had said about him :

“Jinnah has true stuff in him, and that freedom from all sectarian prejudice which will make him the best ambassador of Hindu-Muslim Unity.” To argue that he suddenly turned into an Islamist is a terrible reduction of history. It is true that Jinnah did argue on several occasions after partition that the kind of state he had in mind, inclusive and democratic, was not in conflict with Shariat and this was a Muslim modernist’s vision. This was a vision that held that modern democracy and human rights were in perfect conformity with the spirit of Islam. Many famous Muslim figures have held this view since late 19th Century. Midhet Pasha, Sir Syed Ahmad Khan, Jamaluddin Afghani and Syed Ameer Ali amongst others were proponents of this view. Even Kemal Ataturk, addressing his followers from the pulpit in 1919 declared that Islam was a faith of reason and logic that did not stand in the way of modern republicanism. It was this quest that led Ataturk to commission a wholly Turkish translation of the Holy Quran to be distributed amongst the Turks in the early 1930s. Ataturk and Jinnah, leaders of predominantly Muslim majority nation states, had to couch their modernist ideas in language that was comprehensible to the common Muslims in their countries. Ataturk had explained this strategy in his famous 8 day speech in 1928 reversing his own policy having introduced a state religion in the Turkish Constitution in 1924.

Secularism means the impartiality of the state to religion. While it has been postulated as a complete separation of religion and state, even the US Supreme Court recognizes that at times religion has a secular purpose. Secular purpose jurisprudence holds that where religion serves a secular purpose, i.e. not primarily religious, cannot come at the expense of religious freedom of one group or another.

Consider the example of Great Britain. It is a secular state and yet the Anglican Church is woven into the British Constitution. All of the Scandinavian states similarly have Lutheranism built into their constitutional structure but in terms of secularism they are considered far more secular than United States of America. Sweden, Norway, Finland and Denmark do not have the kind of rigid separation of state that USA does and despite that US remains a far more religious country than these states. Secularism does not take one form. There is the French and US models, which stand in sharp contradiction to Britain, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland. Yet the latter are far more secular than the former, as I said earlier. This is one of life’s great mysteries that can be resolved only when we see the histories of these countries separately without reference to one model or the other.

That Jinnah wanted Pakistan to be a secular state is an undeniable fact whether Pakistanis or Indians deny it, for their own very different reasons. 4 days before Independence Jinnah had written to Lord Mountbatten to make changes to Pakistani oath of office. He had asked for the reference to God to be removed from his oath of office and also that of the ministers. Presumably this was because he did not want to set a precedent by which only believers would become the heads of states, prime ministers or ministers in the state. The alternative of course is that he himself was not a believer. Since Jinnah was an extremely private person who did not wear his religion on his sleeve, we will never know for sure. The second change was that the words “solemnly swear” were changed to “solemnly affirm”. The difference is something we lawyers are well aware. To swear is to swear to a deity such as God. To affirm does not do so. Interestingly Indian oaths of office retained both references. It is a searing irony that today Pakistan has an elaborate religious oath of office in complete contradiction to what Jinnah had wanted in 1947. It was not always like this. The first two constitutions of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan did not have state religions. In 1973 all of this changed when state religion was introduced. Jinnah would never have wanted that.

Then again contradicting Jinnah is a bit of a habit for Pakistanis. As I have written on numerous occasions, in 1944, in response to a question about Ahmadis, Jinnah had famously said “Who am I to declare someone a Non-Muslim, if he professes to be a Muslim”. We all know who his right hand man was. Sir Zafrullah Khan, Pakistan’s first Foreign Minister, was as devout an Ahmadi as they come. In complete contrast to this we passed the second amendment to the Constitution in 1974 declaring them Non-Muslim for the purposes of law and constitution. In 1984 the military dictator promulgated the ordinance XX which was entirely contradictory to the Constitution’s protections. This Ordinance violates not just Article 20 of the Constitution but also violates all laws of natural justice. Under this law Ahmadis’ places of worship are destroyed both by the mobs and the states and even their graves are desecrated. It is a strange law that prohibits the reading of the Quran and erases Kalimas from buildings. Had it been in any other country, our rulers would be crying out “Islamophobia”.

Regards

It's always been that like.
If you study Jinnah's statements in the Governmental institutions, to foreign societies, and to his accomplices, you will always find him openly advocating for secularism.
However, his statements to the general Muslim public were always advocating for equality (secularist ideas) under the approval and cloak of religion.

Mr Jinnah was a politician, he knew that outright the population will never accept a system that does not incorporate religion.

But we will have Pakistan reach his dream, that's a Pakistan where every individual is equal as a citizen of the state and the religion of an individual is his personal business, not discriminated upon religion, a society which takes inspiration from Science, a state with the purpose of helping the oppressed and those whose lands are occupied by foreigners, a state free from majoritarian rule, and a society which gives women their rights and recognizes them as a 3rd power after the pen and sword.
All of these are principles he stood for.
@Sheikh Rauf

Rauf bhai,

Oh man would indian ever stop that crap why dont you look at your so called secular crap state if any of you have any problem with Pakistan being islamic state then get the hell out of PDF cry this agenda on Indian forum..

The author of this piece is a Pakistani citizen and has been published in a Pakistani newspaper. Please ask your own citizens to stop calling for a secular Pakistan and your own newspapers to publish such.

Regards

Many Pakistanis advocate for secularism, and it won't change.

To bad mouth secularism they point to India but never talk about true secular states where so many people try to immigrate to. Perhaps the stereotypical, racist statement is true to a degree:

"Secularism when in minority, Shariat when in majority."

No point about arguing with a person who calls Quaid e Azam a 'tool.' These are shameless people, and I don't expect anything else from such self proclaimed protectors of religion.
 
Last edited:
https://dailytimes.com.pk/736976/jin...mic-modernism/

On 7 February 1935 Mr. Jinnah declared “religion is a matter merely between man and god and should never be allowed in politics”. This was a life long position. In 1920 it was on this basis Jinnah had broken away from Gandhi, when the latter began using religion in politics.

What happened in the 12 years leading up to Partition is well known. As H M Seervai, the great Indian constitutional lawyer, wrote: It was Nehru and Patel who stood for partition and it was Mr Jinnah who stood for a United India. This is a statement from India’s finest constitutional lawyer who overturned the so called conventional wisdom on partition. If one carefully studies the Transfer of Power Papers and the work of Dr Ayesha Jalal it becomes clear as day that Jinnah tried till the very end to come to an honourable settlement with the Indian National Congress but his efforts were spurned. AG Noorani, Indian Supreme Court lawyer and journalist extraordinaire, has written in some detail about it and his arguments are unimpeachable.

Jinnah, the only politician to be called the Best Ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity, was committed to secular polity all his life. Gokhale had said about him :

“Jinnah has true stuff in him, and that freedom from all sectarian prejudice which will make him the best ambassador of Hindu-Muslim Unity.” To argue that he suddenly turned into an Islamist is a terrible reduction of history. It is true that Jinnah did argue on several occasions after partition that the kind of state he had in mind, inclusive and democratic, was not in conflict with Shariat and this was a Muslim modernist’s vision. This was a vision that held that modern democracy and human rights were in perfect conformity with the spirit of Islam. Many famous Muslim figures have held this view since late 19th Century. Midhet Pasha, Sir Syed Ahmad Khan, Jamaluddin Afghani and Syed Ameer Ali amongst others were proponents of this view. Even Kemal Ataturk, addressing his followers from the pulpit in 1919 declared that Islam was a faith of reason and logic that did not stand in the way of modern republicanism. It was this quest that led Ataturk to commission a wholly Turkish translation of the Holy Quran to be distributed amongst the Turks in the early 1930s. Ataturk and Jinnah, leaders of predominantly Muslim majority nation states, had to couch their modernist ideas in language that was comprehensible to the common Muslims in their countries. Ataturk had explained this strategy in his famous 8 day speech in 1928 reversing his own policy having introduced a state religion in the Turkish Constitution in 1924.

Secularism means the impartiality of the state to religion. While it has been postulated as a complete separation of religion and state, even the US Supreme Court recognizes that at times religion has a secular purpose. Secular purpose jurisprudence holds that where religion serves a secular purpose, i.e. not primarily religious, cannot come at the expense of religious freedom of one group or another.

Consider the example of Great Britain. It is a secular state and yet the Anglican Church is woven into the British Constitution. All of the Scandinavian states similarly have Lutheranism built into their constitutional structure but in terms of secularism they are considered far more secular than United States of America. Sweden, Norway, Finland and Denmark do not have the kind of rigid separation of state that USA does and despite that US remains a far more religious country than these states. Secularism does not take one form. There is the French and US models, which stand in sharp contradiction to Britain, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland. Yet the latter are far more secular than the former, as I said earlier. This is one of life’s great mysteries that can be resolved only when we see the histories of these countries separately without reference to one model or the other.

That Jinnah wanted Pakistan to be a secular state is an undeniable fact whether Pakistanis or Indians deny it, for their own very different reasons. 4 days before Independence Jinnah had written to Lord Mountbatten to make changes to Pakistani oath of office. He had asked for the reference to God to be removed from his oath of office and also that of the ministers. Presumably this was because he did not want to set a precedent by which only believers would become the heads of states, prime ministers or ministers in the state. The alternative of course is that he himself was not a believer. Since Jinnah was an extremely private person who did not wear his religion on his sleeve, we will never know for sure. The second change was that the words “solemnly swear” were changed to “solemnly affirm”. The difference is something we lawyers are well aware. To swear is to swear to a deity such as God. To affirm does not do so. Interestingly Indian oaths of office retained both references. It is a searing irony that today Pakistan has an elaborate religious oath of office in complete contradiction to what Jinnah had wanted in 1947. It was not always like this. The first two constitutions of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan did not have state religions. In 1973 all of this changed when state religion was introduced. Jinnah would never have wanted that.

Then again contradicting Jinnah is a bit of a habit for Pakistanis. As I have written on numerous occasions, in 1944, in response to a question about Ahmadis, Jinnah had famously said “Who am I to declare someone a Non-Muslim, if he professes to be a Muslim”. We all know who his right hand man was. Sir Zafrullah Khan, Pakistan’s first Foreign Minister, was as devout an Ahmadi as they come. In complete contrast to this we passed the second amendment to the Constitution in 1974 declaring them Non-Muslim for the purposes of law and constitution. In 1984 the military dictator promulgated the ordinance XX which was entirely contradictory to the Constitution’s protections. This Ordinance violates not just Article 20 of the Constitution but also violates all laws of natural justice. Under this law Ahmadis’ places of worship are destroyed both by the mobs and the states and even their graves are desecrated. It is a strange law that prohibits the reading of the Quran and erases Kalimas from buildings. Had it been in any other country, our rulers would be crying out “Islamophobia”.

Regards
Jinnah came in my dream last night and told me that SoulSpokesman is spreading lies about me. Tell him if he will not stop then Jinnah will come in his dream. 🚫
 
@Sheikh Rauf

Rauf bhai,

Oh man would indian ever stop that crap why dont you look at your so called secular crap state if any of you have any problem with Pakistan being islamic state then get the hell out of PDF cry this agenda on Indian forum..

The author of this piece is a Pakistani citizen and has been published in a Pakistani newspaper. Please ask your own citizens to stop calling for a secular Pakistan and your own newspapers to publish such.

Regards


Pakistan will become a secular state when India is declared as a Hindu Rashtra...simple.

Pakistan had to be unlike India.

Btw that secular cliche is redundant, Pakistan is and can be more modern, progressive, liberal, inclusive with being called an Islamic State.
 
Indians hate our Islamic Republic because Hindutva wants to build a Hindu version of Pakistan but they can never even come close :lol:

Even indian Sikhs realize this fact (This guy is a famous Sikh twitter handle)

Even Indians know Hindutva YEARS for 'Hindu-Pakistan.png

https://dailytimes.com.pk/736976/jin...mic-modernism/

On 7 February 1935 Mr. Jinnah declared “religion is a matter merely between man and god and should never be allowed in politics”. This was a life long position. In 1920 it was on this basis Jinnah had broken away from Gandhi, when the latter began using religion in politics.

What happened in the 12 years leading up to Partition is well known. As H M Seervai, the great Indian constitutional lawyer, wrote: It was Nehru and Patel who stood for partition and it was Mr Jinnah who stood for a United India. This is a statement from India’s finest constitutional lawyer who overturned the so called conventional wisdom on partition. If one carefully studies the Transfer of Power Papers and the work of Dr Ayesha Jalal it becomes clear as day that Jinnah tried till the very end to come to an honourable settlement with the Indian National Congress but his efforts were spurned. AG Noorani, Indian Supreme Court lawyer and journalist extraordinaire, has written in some detail about it and his arguments are unimpeachable.

Jinnah, the only politician to be called the Best Ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity, was committed to secular polity all his life. Gokhale had said about him :

“Jinnah has true stuff in him, and that freedom from all sectarian prejudice which will make him the best ambassador of Hindu-Muslim Unity.” To argue that he suddenly turned into an Islamist is a terrible reduction of history. It is true that Jinnah did argue on several occasions after partition that the kind of state he had in mind, inclusive and democratic, was not in conflict with Shariat and this was a Muslim modernist’s vision. This was a vision that held that modern democracy and human rights were in perfect conformity with the spirit of Islam. Many famous Muslim figures have held this view since late 19th Century. Midhet Pasha, Sir Syed Ahmad Khan, Jamaluddin Afghani and Syed Ameer Ali amongst others were proponents of this view. Even Kemal Ataturk, addressing his followers from the pulpit in 1919 declared that Islam was a faith of reason and logic that did not stand in the way of modern republicanism. It was this quest that led Ataturk to commission a wholly Turkish translation of the Holy Quran to be distributed amongst the Turks in the early 1930s. Ataturk and Jinnah, leaders of predominantly Muslim majority nation states, had to couch their modernist ideas in language that was comprehensible to the common Muslims in their countries. Ataturk had explained this strategy in his famous 8 day speech in 1928 reversing his own policy having introduced a state religion in the Turkish Constitution in 1924.

Secularism means the impartiality of the state to religion. While it has been postulated as a complete separation of religion and state, even the US Supreme Court recognizes that at times religion has a secular purpose. Secular purpose jurisprudence holds that where religion serves a secular purpose, i.e. not primarily religious, cannot come at the expense of religious freedom of one group or another.

Consider the example of Great Britain. It is a secular state and yet the Anglican Church is woven into the British Constitution. All of the Scandinavian states similarly have Lutheranism built into their constitutional structure but in terms of secularism they are considered far more secular than United States of America. Sweden, Norway, Finland and Denmark do not have the kind of rigid separation of state that USA does and despite that US remains a far more religious country than these states. Secularism does not take one form. There is the French and US models, which stand in sharp contradiction to Britain, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland. Yet the latter are far more secular than the former, as I said earlier. This is one of life’s great mysteries that can be resolved only when we see the histories of these countries separately without reference to one model or the other.

That Jinnah wanted Pakistan to be a secular state is an undeniable fact whether Pakistanis or Indians deny it, for their own very different reasons. 4 days before Independence Jinnah had written to Lord Mountbatten to make changes to Pakistani oath of office. He had asked for the reference to God to be removed from his oath of office and also that of the ministers. Presumably this was because he did not want to set a precedent by which only believers would become the heads of states, prime ministers or ministers in the state. The alternative of course is that he himself was not a believer. Since Jinnah was an extremely private person who did not wear his religion on his sleeve, we will never know for sure. The second change was that the words “solemnly swear” were changed to “solemnly affirm”. The difference is something we lawyers are well aware. To swear is to swear to a deity such as God. To affirm does not do so. Interestingly Indian oaths of office retained both references. It is a searing irony that today Pakistan has an elaborate religious oath of office in complete contradiction to what Jinnah had wanted in 1947. It was not always like this. The first two constitutions of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan did not have state religions. In 1973 all of this changed when state religion was introduced. Jinnah would never have wanted that.

Then again contradicting Jinnah is a bit of a habit for Pakistanis. As I have written on numerous occasions, in 1944, in response to a question about Ahmadis, Jinnah had famously said “Who am I to declare someone a Non-Muslim, if he professes to be a Muslim”. We all know who his right hand man was. Sir Zafrullah Khan, Pakistan’s first Foreign Minister, was as devout an Ahmadi as they come. In complete contrast to this we passed the second amendment to the Constitution in 1974 declaring them Non-Muslim for the purposes of law and constitution. In 1984 the military dictator promulgated the ordinance XX which was entirely contradictory to the Constitution’s protections. This Ordinance violates not just Article 20 of the Constitution but also violates all laws of natural justice. Under this law Ahmadis’ places of worship are destroyed both by the mobs and the states and even their graves are desecrated. It is a strange law that prohibits the reading of the Quran and erases Kalimas from buildings. Had it been in any other country, our rulers would be crying out “Islamophobia”.

Regards
 
@fitpOsitive

Positive bhai

Tell him if he will not stop then Jinnah will come in his dream.

I am the biggest fan of our beloved Qaid (RA) after his Sole Spokesman Mr Yasser Latif Hamdani. I will be very pleased if our Qaid pays me a visit in my dreams. If the Qaid visits you next time, pls ask him to pay me a visit too. Thanks in advance.

@N.Siddiqui

Siddiqui sb,

Pakistan is and can be more modern, progressive, liberal, inclusive with being called an Islamic State.

Indeed that is possible. Many people believe that an Islamic state is by definition a modern, progressive and inclusive state.

Regards
 
Indians hate our Islamic Republic because Hindutva wants to build a Hindu version of Pakistan but they can never even come close :lol:

Even indian Sikhs realize this fact (This guy is a famous Sikh twitter handle)

View attachment 727501

Agree 100% with wezzie slayer.

But beginning to wonder if one day our softness will lead us to the boats again.

Anyways this land is of the Hindus.

They need to decide their future and how to get there.

Cheers, Doc
 
@padamchen

Doc,

Even if India becomes a Hindu Pakistan, I dont think Parsis will be harassed at all. They are considered honorary Volksindien. You need not bother about the boats.

Regards
 
@fitpOsitive

Positive bhai

Tell him if he will not stop then Jinnah will come in his dream.

I am the biggest fan of our beloved Qaid (RA) after his Sole Spokesman Mr Yasser Latif Hamdani. I will be very pleased if our Qaid pays me a visit in my dreams. If the Qaid visits you next time, pls ask him to pay me a visit too. Thanks in advance.

@N.Siddiqui

Siddiqui sb,

Pakistan is and can be more modern, progressive, liberal, inclusive with being called an Islamic State.

Indeed that is possible. Many people believe that an Islamic state is by definition a modern, progressive and inclusive state.

Regards
:lol: he intends to come in your dream in form of Mr Trump.... Sochlo...
 
@padamchen

Doc,

Even if India becomes a Hindu Pakistan, I dont think Parsis will be harassed at all. They are considered honorary Volksindien. You need not bother about the boats.

Regards

I know that.

I was referring to the opposite.

Both of us heading to the boats.

That brings some perspective to me.

The longer we go without killing, and simply "behavior modification" and number control, the more the seculars will come around.

The caveat being that economy and external security should never be messed up.

Not that we have a say in the matter based on the last two elections. Just speaking my mind as a single Indian with a single vote.

Cheers, Doc
 
The alternative of course is that he himself was not a believer. Since Jinnah was an extremely private person who did not wear his religion on his sleeve
This is very possible. Certainly nothing in his life suggests he was religious. Neither his attire, his clean shaven face, his penchent for fine living and cavorting with fire worshipping Parsi damsels and his only daughter growing up in India as a Parsi should tell us something. If a leader like him walked the streets in Pakistan today dressed like a gora country gent, poodling along with his dog, having as his lieutenant a sworn Ahmedi like Zafaraullah walking along he would be at risk of being lynched.

YLH and his magnificent delusions..
He can be that although he makes a fine and a sharp case for Jinnah the secular man. And it is hard not to agree with him given the person that Jinnah was. But here is the rub that YLH ignores. Jinnah did use religion in the most crude and explosive way. It was used as basis of Two Nation Theory. How can you claim secularism when your about to change entire political geography of South Asia basd on religion? This is akin to a teetotalar choosing his travel plans according to where the best wine bars are.

The entire premise of secularism is you do not look at public life through prism of religion. A secularist does not see Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Jew. He sees citizens. Jinnah however in the finality reduced his politics to Muslim versus Hindu. That is about as contra secularism as you can go.

However my own personal opinion is Jinnah was at best a lapsed Muslim if not a athiest. Howver he used Islam as a tool. That is he saw religion as instrument to further his political project. This is very cynical view but most politicians are that. They are not angels because politics is a dirty game.

Jinnah might as easily have used some other tool then religion to articulate his political project but in the South Asian milieu the easiest and lowest hanging fruit is religion. That is so true even today that even in Nehru's secular India is being increasingly used. Modi has hit that golden formula and panders to Hindutva sentiments that has escalated him to top of the Indian political order.

I do however think that Jinnah did use religon in a cynical way to get 1947 but after having achieved his goal he would have configured a secular state in Pakistan. If you look at his team it all points to diversity and pluralism. Unfortunately he died before he could flesh out the state.

The Pandora's box of religion opened by Jinnah then began to wreak havoc. Nobody was big enough to box it back. And 70 years later it has literally eaten the innards of the Pakistani state.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom