Jinnah, secularism and Islamic modernism: YLH

[truthfollower]

why he asked to remove god from his oath? if you are religious and have faith in some supreme being then why remove it from your oath?

Jinnah’s proposed changes for the Pakistani version of the oath were twofold. He proposed to use “affirm” instead of “swear” and he asked for an omission of the words “so help me God.”

Jinnah’s oath | Daily times

As a biographer of Mr. Jinnah, I inevitably lean on references from his life and at times I admit it can become tedious for the reader. Never

dailytimes.com.pk

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ

he would have garnered obvious secular acclaim had he accepted his (only)daughter's marriage with a zoro. Instead he disowned her... his own daughter.

This is completely untrue and a canard. Our beloved Qaid (RA) was hurt by Dina's marriage (but that hurt was not entirely due to NW's religious identity- there were other factors at play)- but he never disowned her or her children. He was very fond of his grandchild and Dina and Nusli continue to express fond memories of MAJ.

Regards

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

@OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ

he would have garnered obvious secular acclaim had he accepted his (only)daughter's marriage with a zoro. Instead he disowned her... his own daughter.

This is completely untrue and a canard. Our beloved Qaid (RA) was hurt by Dina's marriage (but that hurt was not entirely due to NW's religious identity- there were other factors at play)- but he never disowned her or her children. He was very fond of his grandchild and Dina and Nusli continue to express fond memories of MAJ.

Regards

Dishonest and disingenuous! He's heard say as much... even the relationship with Dina, at best transactional. Even after she separated, didn't return back nor accepted as a family, nor became one... only arriving at his death.
The only argument, "only argument" that is brought to refute this is, that he didn't "legally" disinherit her... well he didn't leave a "will" behind(curious for a lawyer, especially of his stature). And Dina, to gain the property did whatever she could, claiming him to be a hindu, Khoja Shi'i... something he stopped identifying as and least her.
But, hey, suit yourself... don't drag me along.

 

[Invicta]

Thank you for your kind words, logic and reason is simplicity personified. There are far too many Pakistanis here who try to sound clever but do not recognise 2+2 of worldly logic. There is a criminal habit among Pakistanis to view events in a singular format, they form opinions based on a particular event without taking into account other factors, the realities of the time, how other countries behave and so on. I try to keep it simple, it seems to work for me.

By recognising partition in our vocabulary we have given weight to a "historical" India, words matter because with their use you build an image and a realty in your mind, it matters not if it is real, it becomes real once it is accepted. Using the word "partition" among other things, we have weakened ourselves, but it is our intellectuals who are to blame because they have not offered a counter to the fantasy of "Bharat Mata".

Jinnah's religiosity is another thing people fight over and yet have failed to understand, one does not need to pray, not drink or any other practical religious steps to be Muslim, one does not need to step inside a mosque, have sex outside of marriage every day of their lives whilst drinking alcohol and eating pork and they will still be Muslims, it is extremely stupid to claim otherwise. Because the only thing required to be a Muslim is the belief in God and his book, with the finality of the prophet thrown in for good measure. Rest is between him/her and Allah.
Creating an effective and beautiful argument matters, because it sticks and it is hard to counter, for a creative argument one has to be honest with oneself first.

India is nothing more than a fantasy, forget the maps and everything else, it requires no proof, it has not been questioned thus far, but I love the fact I have come across Pakistanis for the first time in my life, here on PDF who are questioning. The existence of India is wrong on so many levels, although I support the unity of India right now lol, baring Kashmir. I dread to think what a world would look like with China as a superpower and only minnows to contend with, it will not be a pretty picture i can assure you.

I'm sure I've seen your pictures, you do not look old enough to have travelled around Europe in the 1980s, you are doing rather well, well done. I must admit to slight jealously at your travel history, I never get jealous except when it comes to travel, well less jealous, more awed by anyone who manages to travel well, I think it is a respectable pursuit. Stay blessed.

Peagle I wouldn't blame the current Pakistanis, they are taught this in their schools. Tell a lie a thousand times and it becomes the truth. This is the perfect example of this in action. This same is also the case in India today.

India collectively was an area a federation of princely states subjugated and loyal to one or another king in its timespan, when the Brits came they annexed most of it but never all of it, yes they politically influenced all of India but total control was impossible.

The new states were just an amalgamation of different smaller states into two new states. The legacy of this forgotten fact is still found in the Indian politics and the way India is administered by its federal government.

 

[magra]

Peagle I wouldn't blame the current Pakistanis, they are taught this in their schools. Tell a lie a thousand times and it becomes the truth. This is the perfect example of this in action. This same is also the case in India today.

India collectively was an area a federation of princely states subjugated and loyal to one or another king in its timespan, when the Brits came they annexed most of it but never all of it, yes they politically influenced all of India but total control was impossible.

The new states were just an amalgamation of different smaller states into two new states. The legacy of this forgotten fact is still found in the Indian politics and the way India is administered by its federal government.

Lets hear from you what lies you feel Indians are taught?

Assuming you are British born and raised, are Britons taught the atricoties they committed in their colonies? Or are they taught that the white man brought civilization.

 

[Invicta]

Lets hear from you what lies you feel Indians are taught?

Assuming you are British born and raised, are Britons taught the atricoties they committed in their colonies? Or are they taught that the white man brought civilization.

We are taught Both... and for the record I don't FEEL Indians are taught lies - I know. History can be distorted but it never lies.

 

[magra]

We are taught Both... and for the record I don't FEEL Indians are taught lies - I know. History can be distorted but it never lies.

Let me reframe. What distorted history is taught to Indians as per you?

 

[Invicta]

Let me reframe. What distorted history is taught to Indians as per you?

Refer to post 34.

 

[magra]

Refer to post 34.

Its not clear from #34 hence my question, but its ok if you dont want to clarify. I dont want to digress from the topic.

 

[Invicta]

Its not clear from #34 hence my question, but its ok if you dont want to clarify. I dont want to digress from the topic.

An extract from Peagle's post to which I replied as post 34.
" By recognising partition in our vocabulary we have given weight to a "historical" India, words matter because with their use you build an image and a realty in your mind, it matters not if it is real, it becomes real once it is accepted. Using the word "partition" among other things, we have weakened ourselves, but it is our intellectuals who are to blame because they have not offered a counter to the fantasy of "Bharat Mata". "

 

[ajunaidr]

Interesting, but reality is Jinnah appointed Dr. Assad (German Muslim, and 1st Pakistani holding Pakistan passport) to write Pakistan Constitution on Islamic Sharia, but Quaid left us so early...its Indians and so called enlightened people call him secular, where as he was honest person not a deceiver to say two different things to different people.

 

[magra]

An extract from Peagle's post to which I replied as post 34.
" By recognising partition in our vocabulary we have given weight to a "historical" India, words matter because with their use you build an image and a realty in your mind, it matters not if it is real, it becomes real once it is accepted. Using the word "partition" among other things, we have weakened ourselves, but it is our intellectuals who are to blame because they have not offered a counter to the fantasy of "Bharat Mata". "

Peagle is talking to Pakistanis about how they should word the creation of Pakistan. We Indians refer to the event as partition. There is no distortion there. You may have a different perspective.

 

[Invicta]

Peagle is talking to Pakistanis about how they should word the creation of Pakistan. We Indians refer to the event as partition. There is no distortion there. You may have a different perspective.

And I imply that the same misunderstanding applies across the border and you are proving me right.

 

[magra]

And I imply that the same misunderstanding applies across the border and you are proving me right.

If calling the event as partition is what you are referring to as 'misunderstanding', then I would call it your differing interpretation. Anyways, British stoked and encouraged the religious differences, as it was easier to rule over a divided population than a united opposition.

 

[Invicta]

If calling the event as partition is what you are referring to as 'misunderstanding', then I would call it your differing interpretation. Anyways, British stoked and encouraged the religious differences, as it was easier to rule over a divided population than a united opposition.

So what is your interpretation?
There was more to Indian subcontinent than just religious differences, the caste and social structure itself had the population divided, there is a reason why India in its current form didn't exist and historically religion plays only a small part of that reality.