JF17 Thunder's New More potent superior Engine

[MZUBAIR]

To Add a Western Engine To Thunder will add between $7-8 million dollars to each Thunder.

This is wat EADS is charging India for EJ200 engine for LCA mk2...

The chinease will do it for half that.

But the engine may only be half has efficient too.

How u can measure Chinees Engine efficiency????????

 

[Chogy]

How u can measure Chinees Engine efficiency????????

Normally, efficiency (to use Imperial units) is pounds of thrust developed per pound of fuel consumed over time.

Modern turbofan engines are incredibly complicated and expensive. The reality is that paper numbers mean little... far more important is actual field use/observation, and the maintenance relative to the work the engine does.

Turbine engines have a unique property. A piston engine has a natural maximum speed - you reach a point where additional fuel does nothing, assuming the piston engine remains intact. But feed a gas turbine more fuel - it will both continue to accelerate, and the temperature (the true limiting factor) will rise; the engine can and will will run away and destroy itself.

Let's say we have a generic engine. On the test stand, it delivers 25,000 pounds of thrust, with a TIT (turbine inlet temperature) of 750 C. The engineers calculate that in this state, it will last for 3,000 hours. This then becomes its "red line." But that exact same engine, by tweaking the fuel controller, could be made to deliver 28,000 pounds of thrust with a TIT of 850 C. Looks great on paper. More thrust! But the life of the engine is greatly reduced due to the higher temp.

It is always a compromise between temperature, thrust, and longevity, which is why the greatest portion of turbine research deals with exotic materials like ceramics that retain strength at high temperatures.

 

[nightcrawler]

The efficiency can really be judged only by the inlet temp to turbine; the more it is the more the efficiency. Its a crude guess ( but ofcoarse metallurgical problems exists as is explained by Chogy).
However for vectored engines because they can vary the nozzle configuration excessively (exit area; inlet area as well as orientation) pressure to kinetic energies conversion is a lot affected & thus in addition to combustor efficiency; nozzle efficiency is to be separately accounted for.

MiG 1.44 is powered by two Lyul'kaSaturn
AL-41 F afterburning turbofans. As
already mentioned, the engines have
axisymmetrical convergent-divergent nozzles
with thrust vectoring in both pitch and yaw
planes. Unusually, the inner petals of the
nozzle are covered with a heat-resistant
ceramic material, hence their light tan colour.
The AL-41 F, which recently entered production
at the Rybinsk engine factory, gives the
aircraft both ultra-manoeuvrability throughout
the speed range and extended supersonic
cruise capability

 

[HRK]

It is a good news to have

But seriously i always wounder why we not attempt to make our own jet engine just to attained maximum possible self reliance.

This may look an off topic question but i really want to know why we don't move in this direction?

We have expertise in the making of rocket motors which is it self very difficult technology why we do not use it for the purpose of making jet engines, we even do not have any future plane for it or neither we going TOT for the same in near future.

Guys seriously i am afraid our this weakness would lead us to the same situation as in 90 era

 

[mjnaushad]

It is a good news to have

But seriously i always wounder why we not attempt to make our own jet engine just to attained maximum possible self reliance.

This may look an off topic question but i really want to know why we don't move in this direction?

We have expertise in the making of rocket motors which is it self very difficult technology why we do not use it for the purpose of making jet engines, we even do not have any future plane for it or neither we going TOT for the same in near future.

Guys seriously i am afraid our this weakness would lead us to the same situation as in 90 era

Jet engine is different league.....Yes we have expertise in rocket motors ( i am assuming you mean babur) but jet engine is much different thing....A lot of investment is required which we dont have .....And also when Buying is less costly then making, why we go for making??

 

[Arsalan]

Having a high power engine is not every thing, it should not be a "Fuel sucker"...like some old gen engine.

It will drain the money from PAF pockets in Smoke. So it is always wise decision to go with most economical engine. rather than a fuel thirsty engine.

Russian engines are Value for Money items.. Cheap , reliable and ok to maintain..

Western engine , expensive, realiable and expensive to maintain ..

Chinese engines... this one is a new born , have to wait and judge

well you have really taught us something new,

i mean, waht we all know and what the world agress too is westren engines in general being maintainance friendly, both in terms of $$ and man hours.

hope you have known about the Migs being called the maintainance nightmare and the SU30 inability to match up number of sorties the F16 can fly in a day!

reconsidering???

regards!

 

[Arsalan]

Indians can't let go underestimating Chinese products.

Engine hasn't come up yet and we have all these revelations about their engine quality and stuff like that.

Let it come, then say how much it is and how much not.

well unless its not of indian origin and is not going to be used in the Lost Combat Aircraft LCA, whats that point in waiting to declare it a failuer!!

its bound to be crap!!!

 

[nightcrawler]

Chinese engines I dont think so be coming any sooner in a perfect shape

 

[MastanKhan]

It is a good news to have

But seriously i always wounder why we not attempt to make our own jet engine just to attained maximum possible self reliance.

This may look an off topic question but i really want to know why we don't move in this direction?

We have expertise in the making of rocket motors which is it self very difficult technology why we do not use it for the purpose of making jet engines, we even do not have any future plane for it or neither we going TOT for the same in near future.

Guys seriously i am afraid our this weakness would lead us to the same situation as in 90 era

Sir,

Welcome to the forum----first post---and you jumped right into the fire pit---.

What do you really really think pakistan's engineering capabilities are.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Sir,

Welcome to the forum----first post---and you jumped right into the fire pit---.

What do you really really think pakistan's engineering capabilities are.

It isn't so much as Pakistan's engineering capabilities as it is the difficulty in developing and manufacturing something as difficult as the turbofan engine.

China has her own wealth of engineers. We spent many decades developing our own indigenous engines and so far we are still have major problems with reliability and engine lifetime. We call it China's "heart problem". Keep in mind that China is a nation capable of launching manned space missions!

Pakistan has great engineers but I think at stage Pakistan, like over 90% of other countries in the world, doesn't have the resources to develop engines for fighter aircrafts just yet. I think Pakistan should start by cooperating with China (JF-17 is a great start) and gradually indigenize all the technology. There is a saying in China that one could not get fat by stuffing himself in one meal.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Guys dont you think we are thinking inside the box here...

Of course we lack technology and expertise in so many things... but there was a time that we did not have missiles and the A bomb...

What we need to do is to stop purchasing weapons alone and instead start importing "TECHNOLOGY" i.e the ability to make things ourselves... So instead of buying any plane we should make deals that we would be given the technology and expertise to be able to build that plane ourself... This has always been an issue with us due to the stupidity of our rulers and mumble mumble cough cough generals... Once you have a generation of experts and engineers who know how to make things then a nation truly becomes independent and innovative...

Someone mentioned China... I say why not... infact why not Turkey, Russia, Sweden, France as well... The only two countries I would advise against co operating in this matter would be America and Britain...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

well... why not... get them onboard in this as well... at the end of the day we benefit...

 

[HRK]

Sir,

Welcome to the forum----first post---and you jumped right into the fire pit---.

What do you really really think pakistan's engineering capabilities are.

Mastankhan Shaib Thanks to Welcome me.

In my last post the query which actually i tried to raised that we are currently not making any attempt neither in near future or in a longer run to have our own indigenous capabilities for the jet engines (not even a commercial jet engine program) which as a thoughtful Pakistani hurts.

I do understand that it is a difficult thing and it will consume both time and money but i don't think without of this capabilities we can claim our mastery in fighter jet manufacturing field, if we start planing to move in this direction it would take 10 to 15 years to make a competitive engine which mean we are 10 to 15 years behind in this field where some of the jet manufacturing countries are currently.

But keeping our track record in mind (N-bombs, Missiles, Tanks and even JF-17), one could hope we may end our journey much earlier then expected but we are not even in a mode to take our first step.

I hope i have clear my point, thanks again

 

[Arsalan]

well for a first step we better start off with engine for drones, bigger and power full ones.
jumping straight to jet engines is asking for too much!
we do not even make automobile engines at home, the jet engine indegenious production will involve millions of $$ in development of infrastructure, RnD, metallurgy and all..

i agree that this is the ultimate destin, self-reliance, but we cannot just go straight ito it.

at maximum, we might see in house production of WS-13 but this too seem a bit too much.

i mean, we are no even making engines for armoured vehicles and tanks taht we have specialized in. jet engine engineering is a new horizon, that need to be explored yet!

regards!

 

[nangyale]

But keeping our track record in mind (N-bombs, Missiles, Tanks and even JF-17), one could hope we may end our journey much earlier then expected but we are not even in a mode to take our first step.

I hope i have clear my point, thanks again

Dont you think this would be a big step for Pakistan? Keep in mind that such a thing would require a huge investment of time and money, which at the moment we dont have. Granted manufacturing is important and would be great if Pakistan became one of the few countries in the world that do manufacture jet-engines. Dont you think it would be better if we started by lets say making engines for our tanks( which even for al-khalid we are importing from Ukraine).
As Mastana Khan has mentioned in quite a few of his posts, the problem we have is that we dont have much of a manufacturing base in the private sector. Forget about jet and tank engines, most of the cars running in Pakistan are only assembeled in the country.
Jumping to something as complex and complicated as jet engines at this stage would just be asking for trouble. We dont want to be another India(still working on Kaveri engine) do we?