JF17 Thunder's New More potent superior Engine

[SBD-3]

Dont you think this would be a big step for Pakistan? Keep in mind that such a thing would require a huge investment of time and money, which at the moment we dont have. Granted manufacturing is important and would be great if Pakistan became one of the few countries in the world that do manufacture jet-engines. Dont you think it would be better if we started by lets say making engines for our tanks( which even for al-khalid we are importing from Ukraine).
As Mastana Khan has mentioned in quite a few of his posts, the problem we have is that we dont have much of a manufacturing base in the private sector. Forget about jet and tank engines, most of the cars running in Pakistan are only assembeled in the country.
Jumping to something as complex and complicated as jet engines at this stage would just be asking for trouble. We dont want to be another India(still working on Kaveri engine) do we?

Agreed indeed......I mean look there should be a rationale for everything....we may be in need for 30 halos and poeple are talking indigenous production. We dont need to produce everything in house...yes for the things that we plan to induct in large numbers may be produced in house.
and secondly.......its MastanKhan not Mastana Khan

 

[BATMAN]

Sir,

Welcome to the forum----first post---and you jumped right into the fire pit---.

What do you really really think pakistan's engineering capabilities are.

Sir jee....... I feel offended.
We may not have industrial base but we have enough potential to work on any technology.
provided the cash and market feasibility any venture can be undertaken successfuly.

br.

 

[MastanKhan]

Jumping to something as complex and complicated as jet engines at this stage would just be asking for trouble. We dont want to be another India(still working on Kaveri engine) do we?

Hi,

Thankyou very much---for any industrial project---there has to be a rationale behind the investment and alongwith the rationale you have to keep focus on our limitations first and foremost. It well and good to be daring---but you have to plan to be within the realms of reason.


Batman quote
" Sir jee....... I feel offended.
We may not have industrial base but we have enough potential to work on any technology.
provided the cash and market feasibility any venture can be undertaken successfuly ".



Hi, I don't know what you did to get banned----.

But there is no reason to get offended---that money spent for a wasted effort on the engine can be spent on the welfare of people.

Pak doesnot have a problem getting engines from china---. So why is there a need to to waste billions.

At worst---get involved with the chinese.

 

[HRK]

Guys i think we are going off topic, therefor to conclude the discussion started form my first post and make my point more understandable, I am, last time explaining my point of view at this topic.


I just emphasis the need of R&D program for engine manufacturing as the it is the base which we currently lacking in our defense program.

I am agree with those who says it will consume both time and $$, as any of our defense related program consumed both.

I also agree with those who says we are catering our "current need" by Russian Origin RD-93 and "near future need" would be catered by Chines built WS-13, but could any one explain what after this in "far future" world is not going to end after these engines, nor all of our problem are going to resolved.

Pleas keep in mind either JF-17, Augusta 90B or Al Khalid/ Al Zarar all are just the beginning, we have to move ahead from these things and i genuinely believe that we have take our industrial/ technological know how up to that extant that from here we should move to the next and more complex level.

Also keep in mind that i am not talking for the next 5 or 7 years, I am talking about next 20 years and onward neither I am dreaming nor i am asking any body els to dream, I just want to have a vision for the next achievements and goals, which is at least till today i missed in our feature development in defense sector either it is AC or tanks

Some one in reply of my previous post wrote that we not even manufacture automobile engine how is it possible for us to make a JET ENGINE, to him i would answer dear i am not talking about the commercial market i am talking about the defense sector we can not sit idle just because we do not have technology, who stop us to have JV or license production of engines?

Kindly try to understand it's true that we seriously have weak civilian/ commercial engineering and industrial infrastructure, but in defense sector it is other story.

I believe it is the comprehensive elaboration of my point of view, so this should be the conclusion of this off topic discussion.


Now back to the topic guys could any body explain how WS 13 is more superior then other engine of it class (in comparison of maintenance friendly, technological up-gradation etc etc...)

 

[MastanKhan]

Guys i think we are going off topic, therefor to conclude the discussion started form my first post and make my point more understandable, I am, last time explaining my point of view at this topic.


I just emphasis the need of R&D program for engine manufacturing as the it is the base which we currently lacking in our defense program.

I am agree with those who says it will consume both time and $$, as any of our defense related program consumed both.

I also agree with those who says we are catering our "current need" by Russian Origin RD-93 and "near future need" would be catered by Chines built WS-13, but could any one explain what after this in "far future" world is not going to end after these engines, nor all of our problem are going to resolved.

Pleas keep in mind either JF-17, Augusta 90B or Al Khalid/ Al Zarar all are just the beginning, we have to move ahead from these things and i genuinely believe that we have take our industrial/ technological know how up to that extant that from here we should move to the next and more complex level.

Also keep in mind that i am not talking for the next 5 or 7 years, I am talking about next 20 years and onward neither I am dreaming nor i am asking any body els to dream, I just want to have a vision for the next achievements and goals, which is at least till today i missed in our feature development in defense sector either it is AC or tanks

Some one in reply of my previous post wrote that we not even manufacture automobile engine how is it possible for us to make a JET ENGINE, to him i would answer dear i am not talking about the commercial market i am talking about the defense sector we can not sit idle just because we do not have technology, who stop us to have JV or license production of engines?

Kindly try to understand it's true that we seriously have weak civilian/ commercial engineering and industrial infrastructure, but in defense sector it is other story.

I believe it is the comprehensive elaboration of my point of view, so this should be the conclusion of this off topic discussion.


Now back to the topic guys could any body explain how WS 13 is more superior then other engine of it class (in comparison of maintenance friendly, technological up-gradation etc etc...)

Sir,

We have been giving you the oppurtunity to come forth and substantiate what you want to say by giving us a systematic setup ---a background---and development---from where we are going to get the resource----from where we are going to get qualified engineers and technicians---computers---labs---and last but the most important of all----the experience in such manufacturing.

Why do we need to manufacture our own jet engine---what application would it have----who would you want to sell it to----and how do you know that you can make a jet engine just like that.

Let me share it with you---if on a scale of 1 to 10-----where making a nuclear bomb is a 2 to 3----a missile engine a 2 to 3---a gas engine at a7 to 8 a diesel engine at a 8 to 9----then a fighter jet engine is at a level of 12 to 14 on a level of difficulty.

So---when you gave the examples of making missiles, nucs or tanks---you had no clue what it takes to make a fighter jet engine.

What I am saying is---talk like a world class engineer and tell how and why we should do it.

Not because we should because we must.

What you are doing is just winging it left and right.

Show us---from where you are going to get the experties to start up this project.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Sir,

We have been giving you the oppurtunity to come forth and substantiate what you want to say by giving us a systematic setup ---a background---and development---from where we are going to get the resource----from where we are going to get qualified engineers and technicians---computers---labs---and last but the most important of all----the experience in such manufacturing.

Why do we need to manufacture our own jet engine---what application would it have----who would you want to sell it to----and how do you know that you can make a jet engine just like that.

Let me share it with you---if on a scale of 1 to 10-----where making a nuclear bomb is a 2 to 3----a missile engine a 2 to 3---a gas engine at a7 to 8 a diesel engine at a 8 to 9----then a fighter jet engine is at a level of 12 to 14 on a level of difficulty.

So---when you gave the examples of making missiles, nucs or tanks---you had no clue what it takes to make a fighter jet engine.

What I am saying is---talk like a world class engineer and tell how and why we should do it.

Not because we should because we must.

What you are doing is just winging it left and right.

Show us---from where you are going to get the experties to start up this project.

MK
you are at it again .....
come on ... give development a chance.

 

[siegecrossbow]

I think the key point here is that it is no embarrassment if Pakistan couldn't produce a turbofan engine yet. Lots of countries are struggling with it. China has invested decades into it and we are still experiencing issues with engine lifespans and reliability (we even nicknamed it the "heart problem" of Chinese fighters).

Also keep in mind that it is also not economical for Pakistan to invest in her own engines. A great deal of time and money are needed to create a new, reliable engine and why waste all those resources when they could be directed towards other endeavors? I think that we can all agree that Japan has an advanced defence industry, right? How much experience do they have with engine development? Less than that of China's. There is no need for them to waste all the money retreading the paths of other engine makers when GE has done the job for them.

 

[MastanKhan]

I think the key point here is that it is no embarrassment if Pakistan couldn't produce a turbofan engine yet. Lots of countries are struggling with it. China has invested decades into it and we are still experiencing issues with engine lifespans and reliability (we even nicknamed it the "heart problem" of Chinese fighters).

Also keep in mind that it is also not economical for Pakistan to invest in her own engines. A great deal of time and money are needed to create a new, reliable engine and why waste all those resources when they could be directed towards other endeavors? I think that we can all agree that Japan has an advanced defence industry, right? How much experience do they have with engine development? Less than that of China's. There is no need for them to waste all the money retreading the paths of other engine makers when EE has done the job for them.

Hi,

Thankyou very much for this forthcoming---who else other than japan can manufacture a fighter jet engine---with all their technology---with all their resource---with all their experties and material sciences---with all the experience over the years they have in playing with metals.

They have over millions and millions of man hours of metallurgy experience in different kinds of metals---still they cannot enter into this field swinging their fists.

 

[flyinghawkwings]

Japan is not behind China on building jet engines. Are you kidding?

They've been building turbo fans since the early 80s.

http://www.ihi.co.jp/ihi/products/products_02-e.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishikawajima-Harima_F3

XF3-400

Soon after IHI began working on the XF-3, they began developing a more powerful variant of the engine as a technology demonstrator for a theoretical supersonic fighter. This engine was designated the XF3-400. It was designed to be a higher performance, afterburning version of the XF-3, producing around 7,600 lbf (34 kN) of thrust. One distinctive quality of this engine was that it was to have a thrust-to-weight ratio of 7:1, higher than any similarly sized engine.[6]

Work on this engine began in earnest in 1986, and a demonstrator engine was built and tested in 1987. IHI was formally awarded a contract for the engine in 1992, after spending the previous years developing and testing the engine internally.[6]

The primary difference between the XF3-400 and the standard F3-30 is the inclusion of an afterburner. Adding the afterburner is the primary reason why the maximum thrust of the -400 is much higher than the -30. Other changes included compressor and turbine blades that were aerodynamically optimized using 3D computational fluid dynamics techniques, and improved temperature performance in the high pressure turbine.[6]

A 1998 report revealed that thrust vectoring was also being integrated into the XF3-400.[7]

Design

The F3 is two shaft (or two spool) low-bypass turbofan. It features a two stage fan (low pressure compressor) on the low pressure shaft, followed by a five stage high pressure compressor on the high pressure shaft. The engine uses an annular combustor, which feeds a single stage high pressure turbine followed by a single stage low pressure turbine. The XF3-400 variant includes an afterburner after the low pressure turbine, the production F3 does not.[6]

The two stage fan uses wide chord blades, and both the production F3 and the advanced XF3-400 use the same fan.[3][6] Unlike the fan, the five stage compressor differs between the F3 and the XF3-400, with the advanced XF3-400 benefiting from 3D computational fluid dynamics (CFD) improvements.[6]

The high pressure turbine blades are single crystal blades, and they are cooled by a thin film of air from inside of the blades. The low pressure turbine blades, like the high pressure compressor were improved between the F3 and the XF3-400 using 3D CFD.[6]

Both the F3 and the XF3-400 use a FADEC for engine control.[6]

Besides this indigenous engine, they manufacture the GE F110 turbofan engine, so trust me, they are not behind the Chinese.

Also, they make commercial jet engines of all types. Here is Honda's entry for the private business jet:
Ahttp://www.geae.com/aboutgeae/presscenter/gehonda/gehonda_20080728.html

 

[gambit]

An indigenous jet engine program is a praise worthy endeavor for any country. But it is a program filled with technical challenges that demanded previous technical challenges be met. Metallurgy is one such and probably the most important demand.

Jet Engines

The amount of fuel added to the air will depend upon the temperature rise required. However, the maximum temperature is limited to certain range dictated by the materials from which the turbine blades and nozzles are made. The air has already been heated to between 200 and 550 °C by the work done in the compressor, giving a temperature rise requirement of around 650 to 1150 °C from the combustion process. Since the gas temperature determines the engine thrust, the combustion chamber must be capable of maintaining stable and efficient combustion over a wide range of engine operating conditions.

The continuous flow of gas to which the turbine is exposed may enter the turbine at a temperature between 850 and 1700 °C, which is again far above the melting point of current materials technology.

People should understand that an engine is a 'line replaceable unit' (LRU), just like the flight control computer or the yoke or the hydraulic actuator, meaning it can and should be able to be removed and exchanged out in the flightline, although inside a hangar is highly preferable. Anything less than an LRU packaging and the program is already a failure. For an LRU, the jet engine is also the component with the highest amount and concentration of moving parts in a package that create the most structurally stressful environment outside of a laboratory or industrial manufacturing. Weight is penalizing to flight performance so this component should be as light as possible. The list is considerable and the jet engine program is usually the most problematic for any indigenous aviation plan.

 

[Mughal-Prince]

well for a first step we better start off with engine for drones, bigger and power full ones.
jumping straight to jet engines is asking for too much!
we do not even make automobile engines at home, the jet engine indegenious production will involve millions of $$ in development of infrastructure, RnD, metallurgy and all..

i agree that this is the ultimate destin, self-reliance, but we cannot just go straight ito it.

at maximum, we might see in house production of WS-13 but this too seem a bit too much.

i mean, we are no even making engines for armoured vehicles and tanks taht we have specialized in. jet engine engineering is a new horizon, that need to be explored yet!

regards!

IMO you are right sir we can even begin from a smaller step like Turkey ... I don't remember the name of that firm but they work on engines design of A400M. I don't remember the whole thing which I read but I do remember that they took part in designing and it was mentioned that core of M-88 is used in its engines ( will try to find the link and post it here Inshallah) ... So we can also take smaller steps and try to work together with different nations as per their experties ... and later we can share our experties and services and do some joint ventures ...

 

[T-Rex]

The lesson for Pakistan is to manufacture/assemble all parts of JF-17. The WS-13 engine when it is ready should be assembled in Pakistan with a license with transfer of technology.

Do you think China will allow Pakistan to manufacture its own WS13? I always wanted that to happen for that will make at least one Muslim state 100% self-sufficient in the field of manufacturing fighter jets. Building the engine is the most difficult task in manufacturing a fighter jet. Dr. Q A Khan is a great metallurgy engineer, perhaps he could contribute in this.

 

[notorious_eagle]

I think the key point here is that it is no embarrassment if Pakistan couldn't produce a turbofan engine yet. Lots of countries are struggling with it. China has invested decades into it and we are still experiencing issues with engine lifespans and reliability (we even nicknamed it the "heart problem" of Chinese fighters).

Also keep in mind that it is also not economical for Pakistan to invest in her own engines. A great deal of time and money are needed to create a new, reliable engine and why waste all those resources when they could be directed towards other endeavors? I think that we can all agree that Japan has an advanced defence industry, right? How much experience do they have with engine development? Less than that of China's. There is no need for them to waste all the money retreading the paths of other engine makers when GE has done the job for them.

Agreed on the parts that Pakistan should not invest in turbofan technology because simply put, we don't have the expertise nor the resources to accomplish a venture of this sort. Sure if we had an economy of $2 trillion this could have been achieved but not with an economy of half a trillion dollars.

Now coming to the topic regarding Japan, the only reason why they haven't invested in this technology is because they don't feel the need to do so. Make no mistake, Japan has the resources and the technology to embark on this venture and accomplish it. After all, they do have one of the world's finest technological base and very well qualified engineers. They just don't feel the need to spend money on their military because the 7th Fleet, 130 USAF Fighters and 3rd Marine Expeditionary Force are parked right inside their country to deal with any external threats. Never underestimate the Japanese, the fighter aircrafts they built during World War 2 were nearly as good as their Western counterparts.

 

[back me up]

so far india has not even attempted to stop russia for giving th engines rit? now compare this with how india is struggling to prevent f16 sale to paf even though its pull with US is much lesser.

its as if the indian establishment is thinking

"JF17s for PAF? ok.

f16s? NO WAY"

 

[TaimiKhan]

so far india has not even attempted to stop russia for giving th engines rit? now compare this with how india is struggling to prevent f16 sale to paf even though its pull with US is much lesser.

its as if the indian establishment is thinking

"JF17s for PAF? ok.

f16s? NO WAY"

India did what it could to stop the engine sales for JF-17s, but wasn't successful on that.

India has and will always try that Pakistan gets nothing, will always make a hue and cry whenever we go for something.

This is your thinking.