JF-17 Thunder programme has achieved important milestones: Air Chief

[abdulbarijan]

Tejas fighter without weapons is 60 % indi. and yes I also belive India is nowhere close to china but here is a difference b/w us they just want to achive there target by any means whether by money TOT or if not available for sale then REVERSE ENGG. even theft . There all designs are copy of russians (reverse engg.) and 5th gen is all through cyber theft of lockheed.
Where as Indian Tejas is a complete new design of India. This is a big difference. I know for you people china is a great country but in real they are Shrouded creatures and helping you only to counter India and using you to keep engaging India. The moment India and china had border settlement you will got to see the real face of china.
Bytheway what is your guess which country is importing Jf 17 ? I doubt its Myanmar.
In case of MMRCA and Pak-FA -- fact is -- the original programs are yes dead. But its good for India in MMRCA india only need small no. of fighters for precious ground attack 36 is decent no. Actually if they had purchased 126 nos. they were tagged stupids by us also.
In Pak fa its a big upshort that India is going to develop its own 5th gen fighter thanx to tejas program. India had not to look towards russia for upgrades repairs and modifications with a huge knowledge gain. Its like from which angle to see this, if you see this with neutral mindset you himself fealt this is V good step.
Regarding UK exercise 13 -0 is a real fact, even in one for three configuration su 30 put out all 3 typhoons even MOD acknowledge it. dont take it bubbles... But by releasing these results is against the sprite and rule of friendly exercise. The secret of these exercise is actually both UK and germany were hellbent to promote there thypoons in place of rafels, there top leaders primeministers were continuously keepon visiting India and pushing for thypoons they gave big discount 20% lesser then rafel, make in India (rafel never got ready) so on, which is ultimately delaying in finalizing the rafel deal. Ultimately it was decided to test thypoons if in case had they become winners then today India would have buying them. Regarding USAF it is hilarious that all the rules of engagement are set by India and India only engaged them in 3:1. Apply commonsense. This is a bilateral exercise rules cant be drafted by one party only and no body have so much time and resources to do exercise on sided which will be useless for both. Also these were the comments of USAF (not IAF) Group leader praising and accepting the skills of IAF. "It will be nightmare to ...."

Son, you don't really have any knowledge pertaining to the subject, your just yapping away. I simply asked you, how do you quantify 60% when the most important parts of the jet from weapons to radar to engine to pods are imported, since its your obsession of how "indigenous" the jet is-- But I do find the point about "indigenous Indian design" quite hilarious when you had Dassault (the company that made the Mirage series and the Rafale) as an official design consultant yet somehow the design of LCA is "indigenous" Following is the list of companies involved one way or another in the LCA Project

Foreign companies involved in the LCA Project

-Dassault (french aviation giant --- famous for Dassault Mirage series/Dassault Rafale)
-Sextant (french) for MFD's
-SNECMA (french) - at one stage was providing blades for Kaveri engine -- Infact if I remember you were talking about "testing" as one of the items and branding it indigenous -- however for some reason Kaveri just happened to be tested in Russia..Twice ...
-Lockheed Martin (US company most famous for F-16 & F-35) (had initial inputs in the FBW development of LCA)
-General Electric (A US based aviation giant) (provides the GE-F404 engine and is slated to provide the GEF414 for the MK-II)
-Ericsson (A swedish company) (was the first provider of radar)
-Elta (An Israeli company) (provided with the Elta 2032) (most probably the radar being used today)
-Elta - The company that is supposed to "co-develop" the Indian radar that is already "80% indigenous"
-Elta - The slated provider of the Elta 2052 -- the supposed radar to be used on board for LCA MK-1A
-Elta - The provider of the jamming pod Elta ELL/8-2222 which will be supposedly used by LCA MK-I
-Rafael (An Israeli company providing the targeting pod)
-Martin Baker (provides the ejection seats)
-If we're considering weapons then we have to consider more Israeli and Russian firms --

As for China -- Do enlighten the forum which designs China copied with the J-31 and J-20 -- oh and as far as stealing goes --- the original stealth aircrafts date back to the WW-II where Hitler had the concept in testing ---

Whatever it is -- "it's good for IAF" -- you literally took a 10.6 Billion dollar deal on the basis of which you convinced the French to not sell Pakistan avionics worth nearly a billion dollars, and you've stripped your deal down to a third of its strength and worth after costing the French another big deal ... Do you really think any supplier would be happy about that ??

-I provided you with proof from your own media quoting the IAF officials redacting their claims after the UK embarrassed them by calling them out on their "figures" -- Ive quoted many incidents of the same thing happening -- eg. Cope India 2004 the ROE were set by the IAF and agreed to by the USAF in Gwalior for Cope India's -- You can search them if you want if you "have time" to see your self being proved wrong --- AGAIN .. The USAF engaged the IAF with a 3:1 disadvantage with no AMRAAM .. yet you won't believe it even if its your own media telling you because your a fanboy and IAF is your Justin Bieber ... Have a nice day ..

Here is just a list of Exercises that IAF supposedly "won"

Cope India 2004
By Dawn's Early Light: Losing a Battle to Win a War

IndraDhanush 2007

Air Forces Monthly - January 2007
The MoD said it would not be putting Typhoons up against the Indian Airforce Su-30s as a one on one fight. However, it did happen and there is HUD video to prove it. Apparently two inexperienced Typhoon pilots returned with big grins on their faces, the Su-30s were toasted, all the Su-30's air display antics amounted to nothing, the Typhoons proved too nimble and too powerful for the Russian aircraft. The Typhoons were also not clean configured

IndraDhanush 2015

Air Force backs down on Indo-UK exercise 'claims'; says no wins and losses - The Economic Times

 

[araz]

Turkey helped design the F-35... they are also one of the countries to order them.

Helping designing and desig ing on your own are two diverse tbings and are a world apart. Designing a small segment of a part or most importantly investing some money can get your technicians and engineers on the programme but again this is different when you are doing it yourself. So when Turkey does come to designing it's own air crafts it will encounter problems and there maybe set backs. This is the nature of the game. I wish our brothers a painless journey.
A

 

[Saurabh jindals]

Son, you don't really have any knowledge pertaining to the subject, your just yapping away. I simply asked you, how do you quantify 60% when the most important parts of the jet from weapons to radar to engine to pods are imported, since its your obsession of how "indigenous" the jet is-- But I do find the point about "indigenous Indian design" quite hilarious when you had Dassault (the company that made the Mirage series and the Rafale) as an official design consultant yet somehow the design of LCA is "indigenous"

As for China -- Do enlighten the forum which designs China copied with the J-31 and J-20 -- oh and as far as stealing goes --- the original stealth aircrafts date back to the WW-II where Hitler had the concept in testing ---

Whatever it is -- "it's good for IAF" -- you literally took a 10.6 Billion dollar deal on the basis of which you convinced the French to not sell Pakistan avionics worth nearly a billion dollars, and you've stripped your deal down to a third of its strength and worth after costing the French another big deal ... Do you really think any supplier would be happy about that ??

-I provided you with proof from your own media quoting the IAF officials redacting their claims after the UK embarrassed them by calling them out on their "figures" -- Ive quoted many incidents of the same thing happening -- eg. Cope India 2004 the ROE were set by the IAF and agreed to by the USAF in Gwalior for Cope India's -- You can search them if you want if you "have time" to see your self being proved wrong --- AGAIN .. The USAF engaged the IAF with a 3:1 disadvantage with no AMRAAM .. yet you won't believe it even if its your own media telling you because your a fanboy and IAF is your Justin Bieber ... Have a nice day ..

Here is just a list of Exercises that IAF supposedly "won"

Cope India 2004


IndraDhanush 2007



IndraDhanush 2015

Graphic: Details of LCA indigenisation

(Source: CAG Report for period ending March 2014)


Serial No
Description of work
Indigenisation level projected

1
Aerodynamic design
100 per cent

2
System architecture
100 per cent

3
Structural design
100 per cent

4
Manufacture of structure
95 per cent

5
General systems
85 per cent (import: heat exchangers, pumps, sensors)

6
Metallic materials
80 per cent

7
Engines
Fully imported

8
Avionics
80 per cent (import: displays, generators, ring laser gyros, electronics

9
Software
100 per cent

10
Flight control system
40 per cent (import: actuators, sensors)

11
Radar
80 Indigenous (import: electronic components)

12
Aircraft integration
100 per cent

13
Ground test rigs
100 per cent

14
Flight testing
100 per cent




Total indigenous content
61 per cent
CAG is most reputable Audit general agency this is the one which opened all scams of UPA Govt worth Many lacs of crore Rs.
Dassault (the company that made the Mirage series and the Rafale) as an official design consultant dosent mean Tejas design is not indi. "Plz remove your black glasses then see it" . They are not going to design aircraft for you, only they will guide you, hard work you have to do themself. Also they wer consultant initially for very small time HAL dosent extend there tenure. Its a completely new design in world. one example Delhi Metro is providing metro consulting to many projects in many parts of world but that dosent mean delhi metro is building for them they r just giving them guidence -ves +vs of there design, how to approch... , design and features are the work of the builder to decide and build. China or every country also took consulting from other countries initially when they stated. Delhi Metro took consultancy from Japan now giving to all projects in India and many in abroad.

If you can search so much abt indian programmes then you should have known abt chinese as well there was cyber technology theft by hacking on lockheed. Available on discovery program as well. Even USA is discussing to apply sanctions because of chinese govt. direct involvement in cyber thefts.

I think french are the people whom you should blame if it is true.They are greedy. Bythe way MOD was always against rafel deal, only because of IAF rigidity this deal happens. Even when Modi on tour of france everyone was of the opinion there will be final cancellation announcement by modi to french PM. when this out of the box deal news come forward even Defence minister wasnt know abt it. He himself told i got to know abt this through tv.

This deal happend only because of Air force chief rigidity and Modis out of box decision.[/QUOTE]

 

[I S I]

Abdul "negate comment" not for you plz ignore. Yes china is progressing really fast. But so India but slowly. In Tajes many sub systems are ingeniously designed (60%).
10 yrs of previous UPA govt. is complete wipe of Indian defence this is true, nothing happens. But I like to draw your attention towards JF when it inducted in PAF it was not even IOC standard forget FOC, but it improved as it got inducted, and still continuously improving but here IAF want only 100% prefect bird with all latest available parts AESA, fuel probe, best EW suit and so on unlimited demands.
About MMRCA its a very big and funny story. Actually it is like many times change of goal post in b/w a match. program started to replace aging single engine migs they consider each and every craft available on shelf including 2 engines. In mid it was decided tajes will be available to replace migs, so it converted to replace Mirags 2000. Mirage is a extremely potent and accurate ground attack plane and it proved its Mattel in kargil, its mirage who successfully blasted all terrorists bunkers with pinpoint accuracy covered with complete white blanket. thatsy rafels are chosen but french are very demanding and negotiations not progressed MOD many times try to cancel this deal but Airforce chief never let it with one statement "There is no replacement of Rafale". This way nor that way kept standing only as rafel was not ready to stand guarantee of planes manufactured in India. But now modi changed all equations outof box deal which agreed by both parties. Previously TOT was there as well domestic manufacturing but with no guarantee now far lesser nos. but enough for precious ground attack capability with complete grantee and 50% of contact value is to be investing back in India for developing high tech manuf in fighter. At last this deal is done.

As far as PAK-FA there is also change of strategy now India will invest in AMCA development instead in PAK FA, meanwhile will buy pakfa for gap fill till amca induction. This is very good strategy to develop own industry and technology instead of others.

With you description I feels it should be a good platform to have but somewhere I am surprised why no nation is aquring this highly advanced brand-new bird even at @25 million $ pricetag, Forget top line even 4th grade countries have rejected in past egypt paid 6 times extra, argentina is paying same for 2nd hand Israeli craft with new avionics.

Recently IAF also bashed RAF typhoons by Su30 in UK in all departments WVR , BVR, one to one score 13 -0 , * one to three, one to many, three to one. Similarly in US (F 16) also IAF emerged as winner and after exercise there team head quoted to media it will be a nightmare to face then in real situation.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Graphic: Details of LCA indigenisation

(Source: CAG Report for period ending March 2014)


Serial No
Description of work
Indigenisation level projected

1
Aerodynamic design
100 per cent

2
System architecture
100 per cent

3
Structural design
100 per cent

4
Manufacture of structure
95 per cent

5
General systems
85 per cent (import: heat exchangers, pumps, sensors)

6
Metallic materials
80 per cent

7
Engines
Fully imported

8
Avionics
80 per cent (import: displays, generators, ring laser gyros, electronics

9
Software
100 per cent

10
Flight control system
40 per cent (import: actuators, sensors)

11
Radar
80 Indigenous (import: electronic components)

12
Aircraft integration
100 per cent

13
Ground test rigs
100 per cent

14
Flight testing
100 per cent




Total indigenous content
61 per cent
CAG is most reputable Audit general agency this is the one which opened all scams of UPA Govt worth Many lacs of crore Rs.
Dassault (the company that made the Mirage series and the Rafale) as an official design consultant dosent mean Tejas design is not indi. "Plz remove your black glasses then see it" . They are not going to design aircraft for you, only they will guide you, hard work you have to do themself. Also they wer consultant initially for very small time HAL dosent extend there tenure. Its a completely new design in world. one example Delhi Metro is providing metro consulting to many projects in many parts of world but that dosent mean delhi metro is building for them they r just giving them guidence -ves +vs of there design, how to approch... , design and features are the work of the builder to decide and build. China or every country also took consulting from other countries initially when they stated. Delhi Metro took consultancy from Japan now giving to all projects in India and many in abroad.

If you can search so much abt indian programmes then you should have known abt chinese as well there was cyber technology theft by hacking on lockheed. Available on discovery program as well. Even USA is discussing to apply sanctions because of chinese govt. direct involvement in cyber thefts.

I think french are the people whom you should blame if it is true.They are greedy. Bythe way MOD was always against rafel deal, only because of IAF rigidity this deal happens. Even when Modi on tour of france everyone was of the opinion there will be final cancellation announcement by modi to french PM. when this out of the box deal news come forward even Defence minister wasnt know abt it. He himself told i got to know abt this through tv.

This deal happend only because of Air force chief rigidity and Modis out of box decision.

Do you even read what your supposedly quoting ??.... I hope you stick with your claim of CAG being such an authentic source because you in the hurry of finding some sort of material read/assumed wrong about what they actually said ...

1.The CAG report of yours did NOT say the indigenous content of LCA Tejas is 61%, instead it rejected the claim and put the percentage at 35% ..

2. The same CAG had the following things to say about LCA

-LCA IOC fell short of ASR

-IOC was granted with 20 permanent waivers and 33 temporary concessions were given

-These 33 shortcomings are to be made good either before FOC or MK-II

-The production facilities at HAL can build only 4 fighters a year versus an envisaged 8 AC/year production rate

So bottom line is, the LCA doesn't meet the standards that were set for it in the ASR, according to CAG it has 33 shortcomings that HAL will try to overcome before FOC or more realistically in MK-II -- not only that it raises serious question on the production rate of LCA -- which by the way dictates that the deadline of MK-I for 2016/17 will not be met and the project will be facing yet another delay--

As far as China goes, prove it -- like you say they stole the designs -- all Im saying is provide to me a design in the 5th gen category that looks anything like a J-31 or a J-20 from the US since thats your allegation ...
Lastly, I kinda noticed -- you have a tendency to ignore the questions or statements that I make and carry on for the points for which you find any material online ...

please do defend your previously made statements about how JF-17 is zero against the IAF .. how JF-17 is bad because China doesn't use it -- how Argentina preferring Kfir's to JF-17 makes it bad ... etc. Seems to me your just busy running from the points for which you have no answer for ... So do defend those points in your reply because this thread is dedicated to JF-17 and I would like to stay on topic ....

 

[volatile]

Kafi Bisti lug rahey hai hoey hoe ?Any one smelling or is it me only on LCA

 

[Saurabh jindals]

Do you even read what your supposedly quoting ??.... I hope you stick with your claim of CAG being such an authentic source because you in the hurry of finding some sort of material read/assumed wrong about what they actually said ...

1.The CAG report of yours did NOT say the indigenous content of LCA Tejas is 61%, instead it rejected the claim and put the percentage at 35% ..

2. The same CAG had the following things to say about LCA

-LCA IOC fell short of ASR

-IOC was granted with 20 permanent waivers and 33 temporary concessions were given

-These 33 shortcomings are to be made good either before FOC or MK-II

-The production facilities at HAL can build only 4 fighters a year versus an envisaged 8 AC/year production rate

So bottom line is, the LCA doesn't meet the standards that were set for it in the ASR, according to CAG it has 33 shortcomings that HAL will try to overcome before FOC or more realistically in MK-II -- not only that it raises serious question on the production rate of LCA -- which by the way dictates that the deadline of MK-I for 2016/17 will not be met and the project will be facing yet another delay--

As far as China goes, prove it -- like you say they stole the designs -- all Im saying is provide to me a design in the 5th gen category that looks anything like a J-31 or a J-20 from the US since thats your allegation ...
Lastly, I kinda noticed -- you have a tendency to ignore the questions or statements that I make and carry on for the points for which you find any material online ...

please do defend your previously made statements about how JF-17 is zero against the IAF .. how JF-17 is bad because China doesn't use it -- how Argentina preferring Kfir's to JF-17 makes it bad ... etc. Seems to me your just busy running from the points for which you have no answer for ... So do defend those points in your reply because this thread is dedicated to JF-17 and I would like to stay on topic ....

I also noted CAG is giving 35 % now .
But do check how high is ASR standards. Even F 16 failed on them and US got this with anger and said "India still not want to be friend of US and today china and pakistan would be smiling on India's decision".
Do your nation also conduct independent audit from a reputed agency and let it publish it in public ? If your answer is Yes plz share the audit report of JF 17 after all already 50+ are produced and PAF is V heavily dependent on them to defend pakistan .
Regarding China copy its the US claim of china hacked into lockheed and this news was flashed all over the world. I as told u I am not an expert so I cant say from whic design it matches and from which it not. But it is said that it is similar to F 35.
I dont ignoring your any statement just some times I chose not to answer them as I felt you will not believe or you dont like it.
Also as you asking me to defend my previous statement which I will definitely do, you also think you called JF 17 an indi. a plane which is completely designed and even prototypes manufactured and even testing done in chendgu. But calling LCA not indi. strange.

Also as you said India stopped France against 10.8 billion deal,This was a open for all tender and for your kind info rafel was never a serious contender for this race.US Russia and thypoon was but during rigorous testing in all conditions and missions it comes out winner and because of Indian testing results a failed project in which no one was interested to buy is become darling of the world which itself shows the credibility of Indian testing.

JF 17 indeed is zero against IAF Sukhoi’s versatility – owing to its extended range, speed, firepower and super-manoeuvrability and most imp radar which can sense from too far then JF 17 could, will be attacked and destroy even before they can sence anything. Also I advise you to search its weaknesses which is even a longer list like no fly by wire, old design, a tin box no composites (it has many drawback only because of absence of composites) . Range , so on ........ It cant put challenge against IAF.

China not using it because it find its capabilities below par then there standards or requirements in this time of age otherwise they had also invested 50 % why not anyone like to use its investment ? They know they cant win or sustain against India or others with JF.

Argentina preferring Kfir's to JF-17 makes it doubtful because I am thinking on same cost what extra a 2nd hand kafirs have that JF dont. On serious note as you gave explanation china dosent provided anti ship its only an excuse to hide your faliure. Look Isreal it is extremely UK dependent country, Its each and every defense system compose of UK and USA made components. and for your information for every defence system they export they have to take NOC from UK and US and do you think will they both going to give permission for sale them to Argentina ? By choosing Isreal They have even more compromised in this case had they buyed from china but may be ...they felt it still better then junk Fighter. Recently UK exposed Isreal of having took many permissions for selling there weapons to china it is big supplier of weapons to china (underground).
May be I am critic of JF but not anti pakistan and I dont belive in false propaganda, by writing here That its bad plane or good doesn't change it.

 

[abdulbarijan]

I also noted CAG is giving 35 % now .
But do check how high is ASR standards. Even F 16 failed on them and US got this with anger and said "India still not want to be friend of US and today china and pakistan would be smiling on India's decision".
Do your nation also conduct independent audit from a reputed agency and let it publish it in public ? If your answer is Yes plz share the audit report of JF 17 after all already 50+ are produced and PAF is V heavily dependent on them to defend pakistan .
Regarding China copy its the US claim of china hacked into lockheed and this news was flashed all over the world. I as told u I am not an expert so I cant say from whic design it matches and from which it not. But it is said that it is similar to F 35.
I dont ignoring your any statement just some times I chose not to answer them as I felt you will not believe or you dont like it.
Also as you asking me to defend my previous statement which I will definitely do, you also think you called JF 17 an indi. a plane which is completely designed and even prototypes manufactured and even testing done in chendgu. But calling LCA not indi. strange.

Also as you said India stopped France against 10.8 billion deal,This was a open for all tender and for your kind info rafel was never a serious contender for this race.US Russia and thypoon was but during rigorous testing in all conditions and missions it comes out winner and because of Indian testing results a failed project in which no one was interested to buy is become darling of the world which itself shows the credibility of Indian testing.

JF 17 indeed is zero against IAF Sukhoi’s versatility – owing to its extended range, speed, firepower and super-manoeuvrability and most imp radar which can sense from too far then JF 17 could, will be attacked and destroy even before they can sence anything. Also I advise you to search its weaknesses which is even a longer list like no fly by wire, old design, a tin box no composites (it has many drawback only because of absence of composites) . Range , so on ........ It cant put challenge against IAF.

China not using it because it find its capabilities below par then there standards or requirements in this time of age otherwise they had also invested 50 % why not anyone like to use its investment ? They know they cant win or sustain against India or others with JF.

Argentina preferring Kfir's to JF-17 makes it doubtful because I am thinking on same cost what extra a 2nd hand kafirs have that JF dont. On serious note as you gave explanation china dosent provided anti ship its only an excuse to hide your faliure. Look Isreal it is extremely UK dependent country, Its each and every defense system compose of UK and USA made components. and for your information for every defence system they export they have to take NOC from UK and US and do you think will they both going to give permission for sale them to Argentina ? By choosing Isreal They have even more compromised in this case had they buyed from china but may be ...they felt it still better then junk Fighter. Recently UK exposed Isreal of having took many permissions for selling there weapons to china it is big supplier of weapons to china (underground).
May be I am critic of JF but not anti pakistan and I dont belive in false propaganda, by writing here That its bad plane or good doesn't change it.

Your again repeating the same points that I've proved wrong over and over again -- try something new ...

-You claimed that LCA was 61% indigenous quoting a report from CAG -- I quoted the same report saying that they declined the claim and put the percentage at 35% ..

-You claimed China copied the designs -- I simply asked you which design was copied in J-31/J-20 and your answer is .. it was on the news so I will believe it -- but your not an "expert" -- but again -- even the same news cannot go out and point fingers which exact Chinese design was copied from which US based stealth program ...

-You say that India has some sort of guts to conduct an independent audit for a fighter program that took over 3 decades and will miss the deadline again --- Audit of such a program seems quite reasonable ..
On the other hand JFT, a jet that took to the skies in record pace -- is in service with 50+ examples -- already is being used in WOT, has demonstrated its capabilities in different exercises -- has been to many international airshows -- has garnered interests from various countries all around the world --- that jet supposedly needs an Independent audit --- why exactly ???

-Coming to JFT indigenous content -- you were the one that was asking what input Pakistan had, implying that we had none -- I merely directed you towards the input Pakistan had in the JFT -- Im not saying JFT is indigenous -- the program is a JV ... and has been claimed a JV from the outset unlike a certain "indigenous" aircraft that had the involvement of aviation giants from the US, Russia & France and companies from Sweden, Israel & UK helping one way or another -- yet the jet is still unable to replace the Mig-21 Bison ...

-What credibility ?? all around the world the potential customers test the aircraft they plan on procuring and if there is competition they check out all the available options before making a decision--- thats more or less a SOP which your somehow trying to glorify ... which is frankly pathetic ...

-Coming to JFT -- you do admit you don't know jack about the stuff your spewing ... so tell me how will a SU-30 MKI's big radar detect a fighter first which has a RCS smaller then an F-16C and avoid being seen first with its huge RCS against a JFT which has a decent radar in KLJ-7 V-II -- JFT does have FBW in the pitch axis -- and when you say tin box -- do you know that your own SU-30 MKI by that very definition would be a tin box -- because the composite usage is around 6-8% -- does that make SU-30 MKI any less lethal ??-- As far as not putting a threat for IAF -- JFT is a serious threat to the IAF Mirages & Mig-29 -- the only "real" draw back being range and payload .. however that comes with the light fighter category and similarly has its pros as well like easier maintenance, lesser turn around time etc.
To put in clear terms the JFT provides capabilities similar to the F-16 Blk-40 odd in A2A ... and with the upgrades slated it will only get better ... As for China -- the PLAAF is in the process of inducting 2 different 4.5 gen fighters (J-10C/J-11D) -- the PLAN is going for (J-15/J-16) -- the future has 2 different 5th gen projects in store for it -- however you may find this news a little comical -- after all the banter about how China is not inducting the JFT -- the CAC is in the process of integrating it with their domestic engine WS-13 engine --- infact it has its own prototype that is different then the one Pakistani JFT is based on -- the Pakistani JFT is based on PT-04 -- the Chinese prototype for FC-1 is PT-06 which is a different aircrafts in some aspects ... As far as Kfir goes -- call it an excuse -- but the reason for the rejection has been put in clear terms --- By the same token -- the ASR of LCA Tejas could be an excuse -- Maybe the IAF thinks that a jet post world war II aka the Mig-21 is a better choice then the current LCA ...

Lastly, before you go out and say if an aircraft is bad or good -- do look at this post ...

I thought that as a rule of thumb senior members were to have alot better posts, qualitative wise atleast --

I mean sure, I wont go on and make a sweeping statement such as JF-17's can easily counter the Mig-29 SMT's or the newest Mirage 2K 5's -- but I won't go on and say that the Mirages and Mig-29's will have an easy day either --

You can go on and state ranges of Mig-29's/M2k's radars -- sure and go and say that KLJ-7 has such and such ranges, hence the Mig-29's and M2K's are better -- but you forget that the radar onboard the JF-17 is not a simple KLJ-7, its an upgraded model KLJ-7 V(II) -- how good it is -- well the KLJ -7 V (I) was as per many sources (that you will find in the info pool thread) is far better then the APG-66 (on board the blk-15 F-16's) and is more or less as good as an earlier APG-68 ( onboard block 40 F-16's ) -- as it happens there were ranges quoted in 130 Km arena for the KLJ-7 V (II) (reported by Kanwa if im not mistaken) so I wouldn't hold my breath on the "radar advantage" --

As far as the weapons go, it is understood that firing weapons at their max ranges is a waste, otherwise missiles like the french MICA BVR wouldn't be considered amongst the best, even though their ranges are around 50 Km's or so --- so that plain is also quite even -- where SD-10A offers similar capability to an AMRAAM C5 (while SD-10B with upgrades is also in the pipeline)

Lets not forget the RCS debate either -- and ofcourse the EW suite, I won't say much because the comparison would not be conclusive because many things surrounding the JFT EW suite aren't known, what is known is that it has a high level of integration amongst different sensors and that PAF at one time was looking for a miniaturized SPECTRA as an upgrade, because the current levels of EW suite performance were already beyond expectations ...

The difference of payload etc. is there because the aircrafts are of two different categories, one is a light category aircraft (JF-17), the other two are medium/heavier category aircrafts hence the comparison between the payloads is useless because it is already understood that a heavier aircraft would be carrying more --

As far as the WVR goes, the T/W ratio would be dependent, on the load being carried by the jets, so depending on the load, a JFT might even have a better T/W ratio then a Mig-29 or a M2K, because the general makeup of the PAF is defensive, and in a defensive role one wouldn't need the extra fuel, the A2G weapons etc. especially if one were to fly to intercept the IAF fighters entering the Pakistani airspace -- as far as maneuverability goes, the block 10/15 F-16's were supposed to be the most maneuverable aircraft in the falcon family, the king of dogfighting in the modern era as considered by some, and yet it got its a$$ handed to it by JF-17's when they were first flown against each other, you can also look up interview of pilots in the info pool threads, who have flown the jet and admit that it is indeed a very maneuverable aircraft and holds its own against the modern fighters being flown today ...

and lets not forget the PAF obsession with dogfighting, you have an airforce who lost an entire decade due to sanctions and didn't have a BVR for quite sometime while its main adversary the IAF was fielding BVR's, guess what PAF was busy perfecting all that time -- and ofcourse there are quotes surrounding the excellence in the training provided by the PAF etc.

So the conclusion is, don't underestimate the thunder -- while you can pull out numbers etc. the real fighting wouldn't be of numbers, it would be in an environment where both sides will be fielding AWACS and ground assets plus JF-17 as a "stand alone" asset is no easy adversary either... so like I said, while one cannot go "a JF-17 can easily counter a Mig-29 or an M2K" but one can say " A JF-17 is quite even with a Mig-29 or an M2K" --

 

[araz]

Your again repeating the same points that I've proved wrong over and over again -- try something new ...

-You claimed that LCA was 61% indigenous quoting a report from CAG -- I quoted the same report saying that they declined the claim and put the percentage at 35% ..

-You claimed China copied the designs -- I simply asked you which design was copied in J-31/J-20 and your answer is .. it was on the news so I will believe it -- but your not an "expert" -- but again -- even the same news cannot go out and point fingers which exact Chinese design was copied from which US based stealth program ...

-You say that India has some sort of guts to conduct an independent audit for a fighter program that took over 3 decades and will miss the deadline again --- Audit of such a program seems quite reasonable ..
On the other hand JFT, a jet that took to the skies in record pace -- is in service with 50+ examples -- already is being used in WOT, has demonstrated its capabilities in different exercises -- has been to many international airshows -- has garnered interests from various countries all around the world --- that jet supposedly needs an Independent audit --- why exactly ???

-Coming to JFT indigenous content -- you were the one that was asking what input Pakistan had, implying that we had none -- I merely directed you towards the input Pakistan had in the JFT -- Im not saying JFT is indigenous -- the program is a JV ... and has been claimed a JV from the outset unlike a certain "indigenous" aircraft that had the involvement of aviation giants from the US, Russia & France and companies from Sweden, Israel & UK helping one way or another -- yet the jet is still unable to replace the Mig-21 Bison ...

-What credibility ?? all around the world the potential customers test the aircraft they plan on procuring and if there is competition they check out all the available options before making a decision--- thats more or less a SOP which your somehow trying to glorify ... which is frankly pathetic ...

-Coming to JFT -- you do admit you don't know jack about the stuff your spewing ... so tell me how will a SU-30 MKI's big radar detect a fighter first which has a RCS smaller then an F-16C and avoid being seen first with its huge RCS against a JFT which has a decent radar in KLJ-7 V-II -- JFT does have FBW in the pitch axis -- and when you say tin box -- do you know that your own SU-30 MKI by that very definition would be a tin box -- because the composite usage is around 6-8% -- does that make SU-30 MKI any less lethal ??-- As far as not putting a threat for IAF -- JFT is a serious threat to the IAF Mirages & Mig-29 -- the only "real" draw back being range and payload .. however that comes with the light fighter category and similarly has its pros as well like easier maintenance, lesser turn around time etc.
To put in clear terms the JFT provides capabilities similar to the F-16 Blk-40 odd in A2A ... and with the upgrades slated it will only get better ... As for China -- the PLAAF is in the process of inducting 2 different 4.5 gen fighters (J-10C/J-11D) -- the PLAN is going for (J-15/J-16) -- the future has 2 different 5th gen projects in store for it -- however you may find this news a little comical -- after all the banter about how China is not inducting the JFT -- the CAC is in the process of integrating it with their domestic engine WS-13 engine --- infact it has its own prototype that is different then the one Pakistani JFT is based on -- the Pakistani JFT is based on PT-04 -- the Chinese prototype for FC-1 is PT-06 which is a different aircrafts in some aspects ... As far as Kfir goes -- call it an excuse -- but the reason for the rejection has been put in clear terms --- By the same token -- the ASR of LCA Tejas could be an excuse -- Maybe the IAF thinks that a jet post world war II aka the Mig-21 is a better choice then the current LCA ...

Lastly, before you go out and say if an aircraft is bad or good -- do look at this post ...

Yara.
Why are you wasting your time with people who neither read nor have knowledge and are just out there to prove how great mother India and its products are. Leave him be and let him revel in his own vision of glory. He has nothing left to argue about and how can he argue. He is trying to say that a plane which has not been inducted but will have a tranche 2 ready in 2024 will be better than a plane which would have been around for 14yrs by then and seen action and got exported. He just does not have a case to argue. My suggestion to you is to let him be and move on. It is useless wasting your breath on him.
A

 

[Saurabh jindals]

Your again repeating the same points that I've proved wrong over and over again -- try something new ...

-You claimed that LCA was 61% indigenous quoting a report from CAG -- I quoted the same report saying that they declined the claim and put the percentage at 35% ..

-You claimed China copied the designs -- I simply asked you which design was copied in J-31/J-20 and your answer is .. it was on the news so I will believe it -- but your not an "expert" -- but again -- even the same news cannot go out and point fingers which exact Chinese design was copied from which US based stealth program ...

-You say that India has some sort of guts to conduct an independent audit for a fighter program that took over 3 decades and will miss the deadline again --- Audit of such a program seems quite reasonable ..
On the other hand JFT, a jet that took to the skies in record pace -- is in service with 50+ examples -- already is being used in WOT, has demonstrated its capabilities in different exercises -- has been to many international airshows -- has garnered interests from various countries all around the world --- that jet supposedly needs an Independent audit --- why exactly ???

-Coming to JFT indigenous content -- you were the one that was asking what input Pakistan had, implying that we had none -- I merely directed you towards the input Pakistan had in the JFT -- Im not saying JFT is indigenous -- the program is a JV ... and has been claimed a JV from the outset unlike a certain "indigenous" aircraft that had the involvement of aviation giants from the US, Russia & France and companies from Sweden, Israel & UK helping one way or another -- yet the jet is still unable to replace the Mig-21 Bison ...

-What credibility ?? all around the world the potential customers test the aircraft they plan on procuring and if there is competition they check out all the available options before making a decision--- thats more or less a SOP which your somehow trying to glorify ... which is frankly pathetic ...

-Coming to JFT -- you do admit you don't know jack about the stuff your spewing ... so tell me how will a SU-30 MKI's big radar detect a fighter first which has a RCS smaller then an F-16C and avoid being seen first with its huge RCS against a JFT which has a decent radar in KLJ-7 V-II -- JFT does have FBW in the pitch axis -- and when you say tin box -- do you know that your own SU-30 MKI by that very definition would be a tin box -- because the composite usage is around 6-8% -- does that make SU-30 MKI any less lethal ??-- As far as not putting a threat for IAF -- JFT is a serious threat to the IAF Mirages & Mig-29 -- the only "real" draw back being range and payload .. however that comes with the light fighter category and similarly has its pros as well like easier maintenance, lesser turn around time etc.
To put in clear terms the JFT provides capabilities similar to the F-16 Blk-40 odd in A2A ... and with the upgrades slated it will only get better ... As for China -- the PLAAF is in the process of inducting 2 different 4.5 gen fighters (J-10C/J-11D) -- the PLAN is going for (J-15/J-16) -- the future has 2 different 5th gen projects in store for it -- however you may find this news a little comical -- after all the banter about how China is not inducting the JFT -- the CAC is in the process of integrating it with their domestic engine WS-13 engine --- infact it has its own prototype that is different then the one Pakistani JFT is based on -- the Pakistani JFT is based on PT-04 -- the Chinese prototype for FC-1 is PT-06 which is a different aircrafts in some aspects ... As far as Kfir goes -- call it an excuse -- but the reason for the rejection has been put in clear terms --- By the same token -- the ASR of LCA Tejas could be an excuse -- Maybe the IAF thinks that a jet post world war II aka the Mig-21 is a better choice then the current LCA ...

Lastly, before you go out and say if an aircraft is bad or good -- do look at this post ...

- Firstly It is me I remember abt tejas audit so I searched it only to know the truth not want any false propaganda otherwise I had searched from HAL or ADA sites.
HAL would be India most basic fighter but it gave India the capability and confidence to start most advanced fighter project without any steeling technology but by itself work has started on design's wind tunnel testing also modi's current visit to UK where new advanced powerful engine project deal talk's to be undertaking for amca.
whereas pak dosent gain anything and forget 5th gen if china dosent partner any new project with pak, it cant design even 3 gen for single flight alone. so, real gain from project nothing.
- Even today a very interesting article came where america accusing china I can't post link so I am posting some link data "

"
Check this link for complete story.
- Sir I feel you are a mature person so I request you before writing anything plz use commonsense then write something . "There is no need of audit as it is already 50 + manu. and flying." Audits never done on the basis of Failer or success, If this is the case world's most successful company APPLE would have never gone for audit but it undergone 5-6 times audit in a single yr. One interesting example in India there was a telecom scam uncovered in UPA period where upa sold airwaves at low rates to telecom companies resulting in V low mobile tarrifs everyone was happy Politicians, All mobile companies and the most were consumers. CAG undertook the audit and gave report of 1.5 lac crore loss to
gov because of undervaluation/scam of spectrum. Then supream Court cancel allocation and order re auction.This caused huge looses to telecom companies as there investment in setting up infrastructure gone wast but In reauction in NDA period out of only 60% spectrum sold already 1.5 lac cror extra has recovered resulting in higher call rates. Now poor illiterate people say modi bring manghai for them, no one is happy nor telecom com., people nor politicians as people think they create price rise.
Audits are because they had took govt. money in past and will take it again in future so its there accountability what they achive, and they try to exclabriate there achievements only proper audit can bring truth in front of the public.

- Even china or even usa took many countries help in his fighter program nothing strange plz again apply your commomsence (info - China's A to A missile pl -8AAM is phython 4 under lisence missile but you will term it chinese).
-replacing the Mig-21 Bison I told you ASR requirements, I advised you to read asr requirements. It must have AESA Radar, Inflightfuel probe, Best EW suite, 130 -150 km radar Coverage, Better power/weight ratio (Infact already tajes had better p/w ratio then JF but asked for more for higher agility) for this 1000 kg more weight reduction planned 900kg from landing gear 100kg from 2 other improvements. Results in higher load and range capacity from current 4 ton(JF 2.5TN) etc etc.

- I think you dont know abt No body ever did such rigorous testing as India did for years investing cost and time. All planes are checked on every terrain sea to desert to himalayas to siachen in all weathers and for every operation for there maximum capablity, In this way its come to know abt F16 & F18 & Mig35, grippen capablities are below par. Before no one can say that.

- RAC role come into play when enemy craft is within its radar range, higher RAC will lead to bigger dot same vise versa but should be in radar range SU-30 MKI's big radar detect a fighter first. Even let suppose JF sense su30 still its misssile guidance range could not anyway near to su 30 known for highest range even have capablity to guide Bromos to its target 300km far. In short if pakistan can defeat US in war then JF can defeat su30 also. plz dont be sentimental much.
-
JFT does have FBW in the axis, in one or 2 axis not called it FBW capablity, every old design has this capablity nothing substance. Basically being an old design not designed for this capablity it is a stable design craft whereas Tajes is complety unstable design with composits give it v high maneuverability.
- Plz by accepting instead of giving unmeaningful reasons as in case of kafir dosent made you small person to me.At least from my side Its a healthy conversation and we are only puting our point of thinking in front of each other to understand other's way of looking understanding on same matter.
- lastly I liked your post but I have little knowledge abt mig 29 except it is v 3rd grd fighter never win any combat against western peers always shoot down by peers enemy, Abt Mirag it extremely versatile, v.v.reliable and dark horse, you can never get abt its capabilities, stealthy still can quitely penetrate Pak defence, accurate with pin point accuracy (no other Fighter in Indian force can come near to it here), nuclear deliver capable. I dont think it is for dog fight.
Last thing never belive 100% on developer's claim abt his product like 4 yr back I purchased Nissan Sunny Milage claimed 17 km/lt city condition . ACTUAL 10 - 9.5 KM/LT

 

[abdulbarijan]

Yara.
Why are you waztinv your time with people who neither read nor have knowledge and are just out there to prove how gewat mother 8ndia and its products are. Leave him be and let him revel in his own vision of glory. He has nothing left to argue about and how can he argue. He is trying to say that a plane which has not been inducted buy will have a tranche 2 ready in 2024 will be better than a plane which would have been around for 14yrs by then and seen action and got exported. He just does not have a cslase to argue. My suggestion to you is to let him be and move on. It is useless wasting your breath on him.
A

Oh cmon dude ... we now have rules over having random fun as well ... oh well, but I guess you are correct ... so ..

- Firstly It is me I remember abt tejas audit so I searched it only to know the truth not want any false propaganda otherwise I had searched from HAL or ADA sites.
HAL would be India most basic fighter but it gave India the capability and confidence to start most advanced fighter project without any steeling technology but by itself work has started on design's wind tunnel testing also modi's current visit to UK where new advanced powerful engine project deal talk's to be undertaking for amca.
whereas pak dosent gain anything and forget 5th gen if china dosent partner any new project with pak, it cant design even 3 gen for single flight alone. so, real gain from project nothing.
- Even today a very interesting article came where america accusing china I can't post link so I am posting some link data "View attachment 271776"
Check this link for complete story.
- Sir I feel you are a mature person so I request you before writing anything plz use commonsense then write something . "There is no need of audit as it is already 50 + manu. and flying." Audits never done on the basis of Failer or success, If this is the case world's most successful company APPLE would have never gone for audit but it undergone 5-6 times audit in a single yr. One interesting example in India there was a telecom scam uncovered in UPA period where upa sold airwaves at low rates to telecom companies resulting in V low mobile tarrifs everyone was happy Politicians, All mobile companies and the most were consumers. CAG undertook the audit and gave report of 1.5 lac crore loss to
gov because of undervaluation/scam of spectrum. Then supream Court cancel allocation and order re auction.This caused huge looses to telecom companies as there investment in setting up infrastructure gone wast but In reauction in NDA period out of only 60% spectrum sold already 1.5 lac cror extra has recovered resulting in higher call rates. Now poor illiterate people say modi bring manghai for them, no one is happy nor telecom com., people nor politicians as people think they create price rise.
Audits are because they had took govt. money in past and will take it again in future so its there accountability what they achive, and they try to exclabriate there achievements only proper audit can bring truth in front of the public.

- Even china or even usa took many countries help in his fighter program nothing strange plz again apply your commomsence (info - China's A to A missile pl -8AAM is phython 4 under lisence missile but you will term it chinese).
-replacing the Mig-21 Bison I told you ASR requirements, I advised you to read asr requirements. It must have AESA Radar, Inflightfuel probe, Best EW suite, 130 -150 km radar Coverage, Better power/weight ratio (Infact already tajes had better p/w ratio then JF but asked for more for higher agility) for this 1000 kg more weight reduction planned 900kg from landing gear 100kg from 2 other improvements. Results in higher load and range capacity from current 4 ton(JF 2.5TN) etc etc.

- I think you dont know abt No body ever did such rigorous testing as India did for years investing cost and time. All planes are checked on every terrain sea to desert to himalayas to siachen in all weathers and for every operation for there maximum capablity, In this way its come to know abt F16 & F18 & Mig35, grippen capablities are below par. Before no one can say that.

- RAC role come into play when enemy craft is within its radar range, higher RAC will lead to bigger dot same vise versa but should be in radar range SU-30 MKI's big radar detect a fighter first. Even let suppose JF sense su30 still its misssile guidance range could not anyway near to su 30 known for highest range even have capablity to guide Bromos to its target 300km far. In short if pakistan can defeat US in war then JF can defeat su30 also. plz dont be sentimental much.
-
JFT does have FBW in the axis, in one or 2 axis not called it FBW capablity, every old design has this capablity nothing substance. Basically being an old design not designed for this capablity it is a stable design craft whereas Tajes is complety unstable design with composits give it v high maneuverability.
- Plz by accepting instead of giving unmeaningful reasons as in case of kafir dosent made you small person to me.At least from my side Its a healthy conversation and we are only puting our point of thinking in front of each other to understand other's way of looking understanding on same matter.
- lastly I liked your post but I have little knowledge abt mig 29 except it is v 3rd grd fighter never win any combat against western peers always shoot down by peers enemy, Abt Mirag it extremely versatile, v.v.reliable and dark horse, you can never get abt its capabilities, stealthy still can quitely penetrate Pak defence, accurate with pin point accuracy (no other Fighter in Indian force can come near to it here), nuclear deliver capable. I dont think it is for dog fight.
Last thing never belive 100% on developer's claim abt his product like 4 yr back I purchased Nissan Sunny Milage claimed 17 km/lt city condition . ACTUAL 10 - 9.5 KM/LT

Everything you say is set in stone ... it is absolutely positively true --- from composites giving the capability for superior maneuverability to JFT missiles not even reaching SU-30's to Mirage being a stealth platform to LCA being indigenous to radar cross section being denoted as RAC and "Bromos" (WTF) an A2G weapon killing a JFT in the air at 300 KMS!!! -- everything is beyond any doubt now, thanks to your awesome research ...

have a nice day ... and please don't quote me anymore ... I've rattled quite a few people with this off the topic meaningless debate ...

Think about it,

It is set in stone, carved in various forms, colored and some times clothed too,

Let's not go there ....

 

[Sinnerman108]

Oh cmon dude ... we have rules over having random fun as well ... oh well but I guess you are correct ... so ..




Everything you say is set in stone ... it is absolutely positively true --- from composites giving the capability for superior maneuverability to JFT missiles not even reaching SU-30's to Mirage being a stealth platform -- everything is beyond any doubt now, thanks to your awesome research ...

have a nice day ... and please don't quote me anymore ... I've rattled quite a few people with this off the topic meaningless debate ...

Think about it,

It is set in stone, carved in various forms, colored and some times clothed too,

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Graphic: Details of LCA indigenisation

(Source: CAG Report for period ending March 2014)


Serial No
Description of work
Indigenisation level projected

1
Aerodynamic design
100 per cent

2
System architecture
100 per cent

3
Structural design
100 per cent

4
Manufacture of structure
95 per cent

5
General systems
85 per cent (import: heat exchangers, pumps, sensors)

6
Metallic materials
80 per cent

7
Engines
Fully imported

8
Avionics
80 per cent (import: displays, generators, ring laser gyros, electronics

9
Software
100 per cent

10
Flight control system
40 per cent (import: actuators, sensors)

11
Radar
80 Indigenous (import: electronic components)

12
Aircraft integration
100 per cent

13
Ground test rigs
100 per cent

14
Flight testing
100 per cent




Total indigenous content
61 per cent
CAG is most reputable Audit general agency this is the one which opened all scams of UPA Govt worth Many lacs of crore Rs.
Dassault (the company that made the Mirage series and the Rafale) as an official design consultant dosent mean Tejas design is not indi. "Plz remove your black glasses then see it" . They are not going to design aircraft for you, only they will guide you, hard work you have to do themself. Also they wer consultant initially for very small time HAL dosent extend there tenure. Its a completely new design in world. one example Delhi Metro is providing metro consulting to many projects in many parts of world but that dosent mean delhi metro is building for them they r just giving them guidence -ves +vs of there design, how to approch... , design and features are the work of the builder to decide and build. China or every country also took consulting from other countries initially when they stated. Delhi Metro took consultancy from Japan now giving to all projects in India and many in abroad.

If you can search so much abt indian programmes then you should have known abt chinese as well there was cyber technology theft by hacking on lockheed. Available on discovery program as well. Even USA is discussing to apply sanctions because of chinese govt. direct involvement in cyber thefts.

I think french are the people whom you should blame if it is true.They are greedy. Bythe way MOD was always against rafel deal, only because of IAF rigidity this deal happens. Even when Modi on tour of france everyone was of the opinion there will be final cancellation announcement by modi to french PM. when this out of the box deal news come forward even Defence minister wasnt know abt it. He himself told i got to know abt this through tv.

This deal happend only because of Air force chief rigidity and Modis out of box decision.

[/QUOTE]

What good is your Indigenous aircraft if it not even qualified, not ready, and is already obsolete from the words of your own military experts?

Oh cmon dude ... we now have rules over having random fun as well ... oh well, but I guess you are correct ... so ..




Everything you say is set in stone ... it is absolutely positively true --- from composites giving the capability for superior maneuverability to JFT missiles not even reaching SU-30's to Mirage being a stealth platform to LCA being indigenous to radar cross section being denoted as RAC and "Bromos" (WTF) killing a JFT at 300 KMS!!! -- everything is beyond any doubt now, thanks to your awesome research ...

have a nice day ... and please don't quote me anymore ... I've rattled quite a few people with this off the topic meaningless debate ...




Let's not go there ....

Absolutely lovely and entertaining...lol!!

 

[araz]

What good is your Indigenous aircraft if it not even qualified, not ready, and is already obsolete from the words of your own military experts?



Absolutely lovely and entertaining...lol!![/QUOTE]
Bilal khan 777.
Any thoughts on these milestones that the AC is talking about? Input would be appreciated.
A

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

What good is your Indigenous aircraft if it not even qualified, not ready, and is already obsolete from the words of your own military experts?



Absolutely lovely and entertaining...lol!!

Bilal khan 777.
Any thoughts on these milestones that the AC is talking about? Input would be appreciated.
A[/QUOTE]

The milestones of JF17 shall be in the news soon.