JF-17 Thunder programme has achieved important milestones: Air Chief

[kurutoga]

jf17 was a good program and now PAF must joing turkish TAI TFX program to enhance its knowledge as Turkey has good know how of western technology ...

Problem with Turkey (and S. K.) is that they have never designed a brand new fighter jet before. And the first project will be a 5th gen jet? I do not doubt their capability, but the project has a lot more risks. Not saying any military fighter projects will be successful, if the risk is within the threshold of PAF it is certainly an option.

Compared to CAC FC-31, at least CAC designed J-10, JF-17, J-20 from start to finish. TAI can not match CAC on number of designers/researchers. And Turkey as a country can not match China in terms of industrial base.

 

[Manidabest]

everybody does everything first time to start something..... soo TAI & PAC come up with a good product ... it is just the matter of trust.... u need to trust your people & friends

 

[PakEye]

If you don't have any answer or you are ignorant then why are you replying like a stupid ? There is more then 180 air forces not using its own made fighter jet including yours, only US, Russia, France, germany have there own not even china who has to import heart (engine) and other components from russia and bytheway Air force job is to fly and destroy enemy nothing else. JF 17 is zero for IAF, forget attack it cant save itself from Rafael, su 30, S 400. but what matters is the know how pak is able to get or have to design a good plane. May be I am wrong but assembling and marketing a plane is not called yous then in the same sense SU 30 and Rafael would also be Indian as 50 % by value of contact components (including 50% engine components) are made in India and sourced to make these birds.

lol grounded Su-30mk for engine failure during flying are waiting russian kits your HAL and your 50% are dumb wait the russian supervisors to inspect engine problem ...

 

[Saurabh jindals]

-- Your very funny -- so lets take a step back and see what you just claimed

"Air forces except US, France, Germany, Russia don't make there own fighters .... Not even China which runs two stealth fighter programs side by side doesn't have the capability to make its own jets because it has to import the engine from Russia "

"The only contribution of Pakistan in JFT is funds/assembling & marketing"

I've given you two links to research what Pakistan contributed (includes weapon systems for integration, software, Pakistan had input in design as well coming off from its experience with the F-16, also includes subsystems that are in production at PAC) ...Do look up the percentage of JFT which Pakistan "manufactures" at PAC ... if your too lazy to read the links provided then thats not my problem or anybody elses...

Secondly do look up the list of fighter jet programs China is running -- Right now its developing 4, 4.5 gens and 5 gen fighters (J-11D/J-15/J-31/J-20/FC-1)-- As far as the engine goes, there are Chinese engine programs --- eg. WS series and as time passes the technology will mature and they will be able to master it ...

But what I find really interesting is if the same standard of "indigenous content" were to be applied on IAF-- what becomes of the "indigenous" LCA then, after all it has foreign weapons, foreign engine, foreign subsystems etc etc ... So by your very own definition -- your precious LCA would not be considered indigenous ...

"JF-17 is zero for IAF, it can't save itself from S-400, Rafale or SU-30"

Whats funny is that out of the 3 weapon systems you mention -- two are no where to be found in the IAF/IA because they are still in the friggin negotiation stage ... as far as su-30 goes --- keep the dream alive -- you don't wanna know what happened to SU-27's at the hands of the JFT ... or the F-16 A 15's -- whether you want to accept it or not -- JFT is a reality and it just happens to be a threat as well ...



Doesn't touch one point put forth -- puts a sob story and goes off about how he's not an "expert" -- then lemme give you a suggestion -- don't put forth sweeping statements if you can't even defend them ... oh and by the way ... your own precious unbeatable MKI's were locked at the hands of PAF falcons and PG's in 2008 --

I mean about 100% indignation, if not 100% then many other countries also enter including china , pak and India. Then your own comment get negates "India dosent have its own ...."

When I will get time I will do read your links, Thanx for providing them.

Regarding S-400, Rafale or SU-30 . Friend world is changing Very fast.
since last 1 yr many things changed in india all thanx to modi, you really need to update your knowledge. Being a new member I didnt hav permission to post links otherwise I would have also provided you some links. Rafale deal done with both parties acceptance terms and conditions, The last obstracal was offset clause India demanded 50% which is accepted and how to put this 50% also accepted by french. And S 400 just 5 days back Indian defense minister signed a deal of 70000 cr. (11 billion $) in russia .

Plz tell me what happened to SU-27's at the hands of the JFT ??

I dont know 2008 incident but in 1999 kargil war PAF F 16 got locked by mig 29, from then they never come near to LOC till complete war. But the real capablity can be know only at real war ground.

Hi,

This guy is another idiot on the board---.



You show your small mentality only ... I hope This is not .
Hi,

Dude---you are just going about on wild tangents left and right----. You need to stop this stupidity----. In just 5 posts---you think you have conquered this forum----.sub continent

Guy---just for your information---this board has over 60000 members---yes over sixty thousand members----and you are just a little speck that a fly eaves behind on a clean glass window.

So---please slow down----acclimatize yourself with what is happening----. If you say that you are not an expert---then it is better to listen----or just don't say that you are not an expert----.

You asked a question earlier regarding the JF 17----after all your posts----you have not answered---in what context you want to know the answer----.

I mean to say----you are not the first indian to play cutesies over here---many have their hinny's busted in due time by trolling and getting permanently banned.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Problem with Turkey (and S. K.) is that they have never designed a brand new fighter jet before. And the first project will be a 5th gen jet? I do not doubt their capability, but the project has a lot more risks. Not saying any military fighter projects will be successful, if the risk is within the threshold of PAF it is certainly an option.

Compared to CAC FC-31, at least CAC designed J-10, JF-17, J-20 from start to finish. TAI can not match CAC on number of designers/researchers. And Turkey as a country can not match China in terms of industrial base.

Turkey helped design the F-35... they are also one of the countries to order them.

 

[Bossman]

I mean about 100% indignation, if not 100% then many other countries also enter including china , pak and India. Then your own comment get negates "India dosent have its own ...."

When I will get time I will do read your links, Thanx for providing them.

Regarding S-400, Rafale or SU-30 . Friend world is changing Very fast.
since last 1 yr many things changed in india all thanx to modi, you really need to update your knowledge. Being a new member I didnt hav permission to post links otherwise I would have also provided you some links. Rafale deal done with both parties acceptance terms and conditions, The last obstracal was offset clause India demanded 50% which is accepted and how to put this 50% also accepted by french. And S 400 just 5 days back Indian defense minister signed a deal of 70000 cr. (11 billion $) in russia .

Plz tell me what happened to SU-27's at the hands of the JFT ??

I dont know 2008 incident but in 1999 kargil war PAF F 16 got locked by mig 29, from then they never come near to LOC till complete war. But the real capablity can be know only at real war ground.

Do you even remember when the selection process for Indian MRCA started and for how many aircrafts? Indian foreign procurement is even worst than its indigenous development. As far as Modi is concerned he is already dead in the water after the Bihar elections. The reason he is getting personally involved in defense deal is because he wants to keep the kick-backs close to him and the people who brought him to power, the Indian business magnates.

You believe in India's propaganda link, hook and sinker. After the Kargil war, PAF invited all the air attaches in Islamabad and showed them on who locked on who. Go google it, you will find the information on the net.

Remember during the Kargil war India lost 4 planes and Pakistan 0, so who won the war in the air, if there was one?

 

[Saurabh jindals]

lol grounded Su-30mk for engine failure during flying are waiting russian kits your HAL and your 50% are dumb wait the russian supervisors to inspect engine problem ...

This is I also feel completely true, India find russian Engine not very reliable, This is the major reason India choose GE engines in tejas. Russian engine cost 1.5 million $ whereas GE is 8 million $.
One more point I find right is HAL is dumb ! HAL is run by babus not engineers engaged in politics and they have no pressure to anser.

 

[Bossman]

This is I also feel completely true, India find russian Engine not very reliable, This is the major reason India choose GE engines in tejas. Russian engine cost 1.5 million $ whereas GE is 8 million $.
One more point I find right is HAL is dumb ! HAL is run by babus not engineers engaged in politics and they have no pressure to anser.

Not only HAL is dumb, so is IAF and MOD all run by babus. HAL cannot produce anything, IAF keep crashing everything they have and MOD cannot buy anything.

 

[Saurabh jindals]

Do you even remember when the selection process for Indian MRCA started and for how many aircrafts? Indian foreign procurement is even worst than its indigenous development. As far as Modi is concerned he is already dead in the water after the Bihar elections. The reason he is getting personally involved in defense deal is because he wants to keep the kick-backs close to him and the people who brought him to power, the Indian business magnates

Yes @ 2005 or 2007. but no, Indian indigenous development is the worst of all thanx to sarkari HAL they never allow any capable private company to enter in Aerospace field.
As far as modi dont make you predication about him comparing with your PM. We know him Very better. He is the best PM India have ever in history and he started many reforms and not even a single person not even opposition still put a single blame of any kick back on him, he is really not like we people think abt politicians. He even kick DRDO and HAL out and bring TATA inside.

 

[abdulbarijan]

I mean about 100% indignation, if not 100% then many other countries also enter including china , pak and India. Then your own comment get negates "India dosent have its own ...."

When I will get time I will do read your links, Thanx for providing them.

Regarding S-400, Rafale or SU-30 . Friend world is changing Very fast.
since last 1 yr many things changed in india all thanx to modi, you really need to update your knowledge. Being a new member I didnt hav permission to post links otherwise I would have also provided you some links. Rafale deal done with both parties acceptance terms and conditions, The last obstracal was offset clause India demanded 50% which is accepted and how to put this 50% also accepted by french. And S 400 just 5 days back Indian defense minister signed a deal of 70000 cr. (11 billion $) in russia .

Plz tell me what happened to SU-27's at the hands of the JFT ??

I dont know 2008 incident but in 1999 kargil war PAF F 16 got locked by mig 29, from then they never come near to LOC till complete war. But the real capablity can be know only at real war ground.

-How does my comment get negated exactly ?? -- I was arguing if you consider China not capable enough to "do it all" when it comes to design, manufacturing of avionics, weapon systems, radars etc. then what of India which touts LCA as "indigenous" when its heart is also foreign, when its weapons, subsystems etc are foreign ...

-"Things are changing quickly"-- members on this board have been hearing that from 05, media has been barking about these "changes" since 2000's -- where is the tejas ?? They are already talking about not going for MK-II and stick with an upgraded form of MK-I to cut the time in which more numbers get inducted --- yet LCA still struggles today to get FOC -- lets talk MMRCA -- the deal that was going to "counter China" -- which has been cut by 1/3rd of its numbers -- Same is the case with Pak-FA -- claims of huge numbers like 200 were made and now they've been reduced by nearly a third of its original strength as well ---

-As far as the JFT goes, the JFT has had simulated kills on both F-16's blk 15's and SU-27's
-- It gives us BVR technology -- the SD-10A onboard the JFT is more or less as capable as an Aim-120 C5 which is currently operational with our MLU's and Blk-52's -- The KLJ-7 V2 is also more or less comparable with the earlier APG-68 versions onboard F-16C/D's -- funny you talk about rafale because when PAF was planning to upgrade with French avionics -- one of the items asked for was the SPECTRA in a minature form -- and the MICA BVR -- both of these are operational with the Rafale -- so you can see the standards which are set for the JFT to meet --- I can go further but I'll end on JFT with this --- even the current blk-1 isn't up to its full potential as yet --- when PAF gets its hands on A-darter, PL-10 and PL-15 with the JFT , that would be like an upgrade itself -- because you get HOBS capability with a platform that is already known to be quite mean in WVR, add in the long ranged BVR with the PL-15 and you have some things to worry about if your going up against a platform with a low RCS, a capable radar and freakishly mean weapons ... and here Im not even counting the upgrades planned for the platform itself --- I'm only considering the weapons ---

To put in terms that you can understand --- JFT is considered as competition by Migkoyan for its Mig-29's ... that in itself should tell the whole story ...

and about the incident in Kargil -- lemme just quote another incident which I think you will find interesting ...

Yes and the Indian government went as far as awarding the MiG-29 pilot for this great achievement, however you will never hear of the incident where a pair of F-16s trailed a flight of five MiG-29s for some 20 minutes, who were completely unaware of the F-16's presence until notified by the Indian GCI, causing them to panic and almost crash into each other but as i said you will never hear these self loving stories from PAF but i guess the IAF needs them. !!!

IAF will fly what they get by HAL. this is not there fau

Do your research again, you really need serious updation. Its not manmohan singh era its modi era, you need to update yourself again and again.

Instead of saying you need "updation" -- answer the following ...

-how many rafales are in service of IAF ?
-How many S-400 batteries does IAF field ?

Just because your political figure head has changed does not mean a drastic change in the organization which has been in a certain organizational culture will change overnight --- infact we could argue that its you who needs serious research because in the so called "modi-era" the planned numbers of inductions in the MMRCA/Pak-Fa deals have been reduced!

 

[Saurabh jindals]

Not only HAL is dumb, so is IAF and MOD all run by babus. HAL cannot produce anything, IAF keep crashing everything they have and MOD cannot buy anything.

IAF will fly what they get by HAL. this is not there fau

1. Name calling is against the forum rules. You have been reported.
Surely Report and dont forget report to US also about this as well, I am sure your list will be pitty big !! hahaha

2. Dafuq does that even mean? We're using our home made jet unlike India. Tells a lot about Tejas quality.

Live in your dreams, you come from some other planet so no use of telling you anything. You remain same ignorant !!
3. Congratulations you already beaten the 'zero' JF17 & won the war with your superior nonexistent Rafale & S400. We surrender.

this can be really judge on battle field, bytheway why your so called best fighter is not ready to face Indian army ? Why you declared if Indian Army try to enter in to pak territory we will use nukes on them, its illogical such a low nuclear threshold, using nuke like a bullet. It clearly show your Army, airforce confidence in themself and there platform.

4. JF-17 is a good plane b/c it can fly & shoot missiles unlike Teja bhai who freeloads on trailer all day long.
If you dont know already 20000 hrs flight clocked by tajes and still no single bad accident whereas in JF 17 you better know then me.

5. Again fantasizing about Rafale. WAKE UP KID & SMELL THE COFFEE. RAFALE IS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND IN IAF.

Do your research again, you really need serious updation. Its not manmohan singh era its modi era, you need to update yourself again and again.

 

[I S I]

IAF will fly what they get by HAL. this is not there fau

Do your research again, you really need serious updation. Its not manmohan singh era its modi era, you need to update yourself again and again.

Oh i forgot this is sri paae modi ji's era where Rafale is used us passenger plane & S400 for bird shooting.

All hail to suppa pawwa shaktishaali shri modi ji.

 

[Saurabh jindals]

-How does my comment get negated exactly ?? -- I was arguing if you consider China not capable enough to "do it all" when it comes to design, manufacturing of avionics, weapon systems, radars etc. then what of India which touts LCA as "indigenous" when its heart is also foreign, when its weapons, subsystems etc are foreign ...

-"Things are changing quickly"-- members on this board have been hearing that from 05, media has been barking about these "changes" since 2000's -- where is the tejas ?? They are already talking about not going for MK-II and stick with an upgraded form of MK-I to cut the time in which more numbers get inducted --- yet LCA still struggles today to get FOC -- lets talk MMRCA -- the deal that was going to "counter China" -- which has been cut by 1/3rd of its numbers -- Same is the case with Pak-FA -- claims of huge numbers like 200 were made and now they've been reduced by nearly a third of its original strength as well ---

-As far as the JFT goes, the JFT has had simulated kills on both F-16's blk 15's and SU-27's
-- It gives us BVR technology -- the SD-10A onboard the JFT is more or less as capable as an Aim-120 C5 which is currently operational with our MLU's and Blk-52's -- The KLJ-7 V2 is also more or less comparable with the earlier APG-68 versions onboard F-16C/D's -- funny you talk about rafale because when PAF was planning to upgrade with French avionics -- one of the items asked for was the SPECTRA in a minature form -- and the MICA BVR -- both of these are operational with the Rafale -- so you can see the standards which are set for the JFT to meet --- I can go further but I'll end on JFT with this --- even the current blk-1 isn't up to its full potential as yet --- when PAF gets its hands on A-darter, PL-10 and PL-15 with the JFT , that would be like an upgrade itself -- because you get HOBS capability with a platform that is already known to be quite mean in WVR, add in the long ranged BVR with the PL-15 and you have some things to worry about if your going up against a platform with a low RCS, a capable radar and freakishly mean weapons ... and here Im not even counting the upgrades planned for the platform itself --- I'm only considering the weapons ---

To put in terms that you can understand --- JFT is considered as competition by Migkoyan for its Mig-29's ... that in itself should tell the whole story ...

and about the incident in Kargil -- lemme just quote another incident which I think you will find interesting ...

Abdul "negate comment" not for you plz ignore. Yes china is progressing really fast. But so India but slowly. In Tajes many sub systems are ingeniously designed (60%).
10 yrs of previous UPA govt. is complete wipe of Indian defence this is true, nothing happens. But I like to draw your attention towards JF when it inducted in PAF it was not even IOC standard forget FOC, but it improved as it got inducted, and still continuously improving but here IAF want only 100% prefect bird with all latest available parts AESA, fuel probe, best EW suit and so on unlimited demands.
About MMRCA its a very big and funny story. Actually it is like many times change of goal post in b/w a match. program started to replace aging single engine migs they consider each and every craft available on shelf including 2 engines. In mid it was decided tajes will be available to replace migs, so it converted to replace Mirags 2000. Mirage is a extremely potent and accurate ground attack plane and it proved its Mattel in kargil, its mirage who successfully blasted all terrorists bunkers with pinpoint accuracy covered with complete white blanket. thatsy rafels are chosen but french are very demanding and negotiations not progressed MOD many times try to cancel this deal but Airforce chief never let it with one statement "There is no replacement of Rafale". This way nor that way kept standing only as rafel was not ready to stand guarantee of planes manufactured in India. But now modi changed all equations outof box deal which agreed by both parties. Previously TOT was there as well domestic manufacturing but with no guarantee now far lesser nos. but enough for precious ground attack capability with complete grantee and 50% of contact value is to be investing back in India for developing high tech manuf in fighter. At last this deal is done.

As far as PAK-FA there is also change of strategy now India will invest in AMCA development instead in PAK FA, meanwhile will buy pakfa for gap fill till amca induction. This is very good strategy to develop own industry and technology instead of others.

With you description I feels it should be a good platform to have but somewhere I am surprised why no nation is aquring this highly advanced brand-new bird even at @25 million $ pricetag, Forget top line even 4th grade countries have rejected in past egypt paid 6 times extra, argentina is paying same for 2nd hand Israeli craft with new avionics.

Recently IAF also bashed RAF typhoons by Su30 in UK in all departments WVR , BVR, one to one score 13 -0 , * one to three, one to many, three to one. Similarly in US (F 16) also IAF emerged as winner and after exercise there team head quoted to media it will be a nightmare to face then in real situation.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Abdul "negate comment" not for you plz ignore. Yes china is progressing really fast. But so India but slowly. In Tajes many sub systems are ingeniously designed (60%).
10 yrs of previous UPA govt. is complete wipe of Indian defence this is true, nothing happens. But I like to draw your attention towards JF when it inducted in PAF it was not even IOC standard forget FOC, but it improved as it got inducted, and still continuously improving but here IAF want only 100% prefect bird with all latest available parts AESA, fuel probe, best EW suit and so on unlimited demands.
About MMRCA its a very big and funny story. Actually it is like many times change of goal post in b/w a match. program started to replace aging single engine migs they consider each and every craft available on shelf including 2 engines. In mid it was decided tajes will be available to replace migs, so it converted to replace Mirags 2000. Mirage is a extremely potent and accurate ground attack plane and it proved its Mattel in kargil, its mirage who successfully blasted all terrorists bunkers with pinpoint accuracy covered with complete white blanket. thatsy rafels are chosen but french are very demanding and negotiations not progressed MOD many times try to cancel this deal but Airforce chief never let it with one statement "There is no replacement of Rafale". This way nor that way kept standing only as rafel was not ready to stand guarantee of planes manufactured in India. But now modi changed all equations outof box deal which agreed by both parties. Previously TOT was there as well domestic manufacturing but with no guarantee now far lesser nos. but enough for precious ground attack capability with complete grantee and 50% of contact value is to be investing back in India for developing high tech manuf in fighter. At last this deal is done.

As far as PAK-FA there is also change of strategy now India will invest in AMCA development instead in PAK FA, meanwhile will buy pakfa for gap fill till amca induction. This is very good strategy to develop own industry and technology instead of others.

With you description I feels it should be a good platform to have but somewhere I am surprised why no nation is aquring this highly advanced brand-new bird even at @25 million $ pricetag, Forget top line even 4th grade countries have rejected in past egypt paid 6 times extra, argentina is paying same for 2nd hand Israeli craft with new avionics.

Recently IAF also bashed RAF typhoons by Su30 in UK in all departments WVR , BVR, one to one score 13 -0 , * one to three, one to many, three to one. Similarly in US (F 16) also IAF emerged as winner and after exercise there team head quoted to media it will be a nightmare to face then in real situation.

-Well depends on how you measure "60%" figure -- Right now the LCA tejas has a US made engine, an Israeli radar, Israeli HMS, French MFD's,Israeli laser pods, a Russian cannon & a majority of weapons from Russian/Israeli orgin so while you talk about how your somehow getting close towards indigenous production etc. Not at all, the claim is more or less laughable -- surely HAL has produced many subsystems etc. but the fact is -- India is not even close --- especially when your mentioning China in the mix --

- Well you talk of difference in approach -- the biggest difference in approach when it comes to JFT and LCA is that PAC and CAC believe in throwing their heads down and working --- HAL on the other hand believes in doing an exclusive for everything the LCA does --- whether IOC or FOC whatever --- The JFT is being used in Op Zarb-e-Azab, has been inducted in the CCS -- already has its FOC ... When you talk about the exports -- PAF has already announced that an export order has already been confirmed -- infact the production is to be raised by 25% next year -- as far as the rejections go -- so what ?? -- a rejection doesn't mean X aircraft is better then Y aircraft -- it means this X aircraft is more suited for the role required --- what did the Egyptians go for -- the Rafale ... The Argentinians went for Kfir because China was not providing them with Anti-Ship weapons ...

-Coming to MMRCA and Pak-FA you can state whatever reason you want -- fact of the matter is -- the original programs are nearly dead -- one third of the original orders have been scrapped -- Speaks volumes about how Indians manage these dealings --- and like I asked -- you were bragging about S-400/Rafale --- how many are there exactly in the IAF ??? -- correct -- NONE -- so until you get them -- don't brag about them -- is what Im saying

-Lastly, about those exercises --- I hate to burst your bubbles but the claim of 12-0 was taken back once RAF questioned IAF over it --- secondly -- when you talk of F-16's and F-15's the last time where you definitively beat them was in Cope India's and the Rules of Engagement defined by the IAF were hilarious -- where you literally had the USAF not use their BVR capabilities and were taking them on 3:1 --- the red flag experience was something different and a youtube video made quite a stirr after which USAF did apologize but never took back the claims made in that video (which was something along the lines of we beat them so much they didn't want to engage us no more) --- A similar incident happened when IAF made the similar claims after indradhanush in 07 I think --- Airforce monthly busted that bubble of the IAF when it quoted as two inexperienced RAF pilots getting kills over the SU-30 MKI ---

The Aviationist » Have Indian Su-30s really “dominated” RAF Typhoons in aerial combat with a 12-0 scoreline? Most probably not.

Air Force backs down on Indo-UK exercise 'claims'; says no wins and losses - The Economic Times

 

[Saurabh jindals]

-Well depends on how you measure "60%" figure -- Right now the LCA tejas has a US made engine, an Israeli radar, Israeli HMS, French MFD's,Israeli laser pods, a Russian cannon & a majority of weapons from Russian/Israeli orgin so while you talk about how your somehow getting close towards indigenous production etc. Not at all, the claim is more or less laughable -- surely HAL has produced many subsystems etc. but the fact is -- India is not even close --- especially when your mentioning China in the mix --

- Well you talk of difference in approach -- the biggest difference in approach when it comes to JFT and LCA is that PAC and CAC believe in throwing their heads down and working --- HAL on the other hand believes in doing an exclusive for everything the LCA does --- whether IOC or FOC whatever --- The JFT is being used in Op Zarb-e-Azab, has been inducted in the CCS -- already has its FOC ... When you talk about the exports -- PAF has already announced that an export order has already been confirmed -- infact the production is to be raised by 25% next year -- as far as the rejections go -- so what ?? -- a rejection doesn't mean X aircraft is better then Y aircraft -- it means this X aircraft is more suited for the role required --- what did the Egyptians go for -- the Rafale ... The Argentinians went for Kfir because China was not providing them with Anti-Ship weapons ... and if you actually bothered to cover the whole story ... it wasn't just JF-17 in the race -- Gripen was also rejected by the Argentinians ... so does that mean that second hand kfirs are also better then Gripens ??

-Coming to MMRCA and Pak-FA you can state whatever reason you want -- fact of the matter is -- the original programs are nearly dead -- one third of the original orders have been scrapped -- Speaks volumes about how Indians manage these dealings --- and like I asked -- you were bragging about S-400/Rafale --- how many are there exactly in the IAF ??? -- correct -- NONE -- so until you get them -- don't brag about them -- is what Im saying

-Lastly, about those exercises --- I hate to bust your bubbles but the claim of 12-0 was taken back once RAF questioned IAF over it --- secondly -- when you talk of F-16's and F-15's the last time where you definitively beat them was in Cope India's and the Rules of Engagement defined by the IAF were hilarious -- where you literally had the USAF not use their BVR capabilities and were taking them on 3:1 --- the red flag experience was something different and a youtube video made quite a stirr after which USAF did apologize but never took back the claims made in that video (which was something along the lines of we beat them so much they didn't want to engage us no more) --- A similar incident happened when IAF made the similar claims after indradhanush in 07 I think --- Airforce monthly busted that bubble of the IAF when it quoted two inexperienced RAF pilots getting kills over the SU-30 MKI ---

Tejas fighter without weapons is 60 % indi. and yes I also belive India is nowhere close to china but here is a difference b/w us they just want to achive there target by any means whether by money TOT or if not available for sale then REVERSE ENGG. even theft . There all designs are copy of russians (reverse engg.) and 5th gen is all through cyber theft of lockheed.
Where as Indian Tejas is a complete new design of India. This is a big difference. I know for you people china is a great country but in real they are Shrouded creatures and helping you only to counter India and using you to keep engaging India. The moment India and china had border settlement you will got to see the real face of china.
Bytheway what is your guess which country is importing Jf 17 ? I doubt its Myanmar.
In case of MMRCA and Pak-FA -- fact is -- the original programs are yes dead. But its good for India in MMRCA india only need small no. of fighters for precious ground attack 36 is decent no. Actually if they had purchased 126 nos. they were tagged stupids by us also.
In Pak fa its a big upshort that India is going to develop its own 5th gen fighter thanx to tejas program. India had not to look towards russia for upgrades repairs and modifications with a huge knowledge gain. Its like from which angle to see this, if you see this with neutral mindset you himself fealt this is V good step.
Regarding UK exercise 13 -0 is a real fact, even in one for three configuration su 30 put out all 3 typhoons even MOD acknowledge it. dont take it bubbles... But by releasing these results is against the sprite of friendly exercise. The secret of these exercise is actually both UK and germany were hellbent to promote there thypoons in place of rafels, there top leaders primeministers were continuously keepon visiting India and pushing for thypoons they gave big discount 20% lesser then rafel, make in India (rafel never got ready) so on, which is ultimately delaying in finalizing the rafel deal. Ultimately it was decided to test thypoons if in case had they become winners then today India would have buying them. Regarding USAF it is hilarious that all the rules of engagement are set by India and India only engaged them in 3:1. Apply commonsense. This is a bilateral exercise rules cant be drafted by one party only and no body have so much time and resources to do exercise on sided which will be useless for both. Also these were the comments of USAF (not IAF) Group leader praising and accepting the skills of IAF. "It will be nightmare to ...."

-Well depends on how you measure "60%" figure -- Right now the LCA tejas has a US made engine, an Israeli radar, Israeli HMS, French MFD's,Israeli laser pods, a Russian cannon & a majority of weapons from Russian/Israeli orgin so while you talk about how your somehow getting close towards indigenous production etc. Not at all, the claim is more or less laughable -- surely HAL has produced many subsystems etc. but the fact is -- India is not even close --- especially when your mentioning China in the mix --

- Well you talk of difference in approach -- the biggest difference in approach when it comes to JFT and LCA is that PAC and CAC believe in throwing their heads down and working --- HAL on the other hand believes in doing an exclusive for everything the LCA does --- whether IOC or FOC whatever --- The JFT is being used in Op Zarb-e-Azab, has been inducted in the CCS -- already has its FOC ... When you talk about the exports -- PAF has already announced that an export order has already been confirmed -- infact the production is to be raised by 25% next year -- as far as the rejections go -- so what ?? -- a rejection doesn't mean X aircraft is better then Y aircraft -- it means this X aircraft is more suited for the role required --- what did the Egyptians go for -- the Rafale ... The Argentinians went for Kfir because China was not providing them with Anti-Ship weapons ...

-Coming to MMRCA and Pak-FA you can state whatever reason you want -- fact of the matter is -- the original programs are nearly dead -- one third of the original orders have been scrapped -- Speaks volumes about how Indians manage these dealings --- and like I asked -- you were bragging about S-400/Rafale --- how many are there exactly in the IAF ??? -- correct -- NONE -- so until you get them -- don't brag about them -- is what Im saying

-Lastly, about those exercises --- I hate to burst your bubbles but the claim of 12-0 was taken back once RAF questioned IAF over it --- secondly -- when you talk of F-16's and F-15's the last time where you definitively beat them was in Cope India's and the Rules of Engagement defined by the IAF were hilarious -- where you literally had the USAF not use their BVR capabilities and were taking them on 3:1 --- the red flag experience was something different and a youtube video made quite a stirr after which USAF did apologize but never took back the claims made in that video (which was something along the lines of we beat them so much they didn't want to engage us no more) --- A similar incident happened when IAF made the similar claims after indradhanush in 07 I think --- Airforce monthly busted that bubble of the IAF when it quoted as two inexperienced RAF pilots getting kills over the SU-30 MKI ---

Tejas fighter without weapons is 60 % indi. and yes I also belive India is nowhere close to china but here is a difference b/w us they just want to achive there target by any means whether by money TOT or if not available for sale then REVERSE ENGG. even theft . There all designs are copy of russians (reverse engg.) and 5th gen is all through cyber theft of lockheed.
Where as Indian Tejas is a complete new design of India. This is a big difference. I know for you people china is a great country but in real they are Shrouded creatures and helping you only to counter India and using you to keep engaging India. The moment India and china had border settlement you will got to see the real face of china.
Bytheway what is your guess which country is importing Jf 17 ? I doubt its Myanmar.
In case of MMRCA and Pak-FA -- fact is -- the original programs are yes dead. But its good for India in MMRCA india only need small no. of fighters for precious ground attack 36 is decent no. Actually if they had purchased 126 nos. they were tagged stupids by us also.
In Pak fa its a big upshort that India is going to develop its own 5th gen fighter thanx to tejas program. India had not to look towards russia for upgrades repairs and modifications with a huge knowledge gain. Its like from which angle to see this, if you see this with neutral mindset you himself fealt this is V good step.
Regarding UK exercise 13 -0 is a real fact, even in one for three configuration su 30 put out all 3 typhoons even MOD acknowledge it. dont take it bubbles... But by releasing these results is against the sprite and rule of friendly exercise. The secret of these exercise is actually both UK and germany were hellbent to promote there thypoons in place of rafels, there top leaders primeministers were continuously keepon visiting India and pushing for thypoons they gave big discount 20% lesser then rafel, make in India (rafel never got ready) so on, which is ultimately delaying in finalizing the rafel deal. Ultimately it was decided to test thypoons if in case had they become winners then today India would have buying them. Regarding USAF it is hilarious that all the rules of engagement are set by India and India only engaged them in 3:1. Apply commonsense. This is a bilateral exercise rules cant be drafted by one party only and no body have so much time and resources to do exercise on sided which will be useless for both. Also these were the comments of USAF (not IAF) Group leader praising and accepting the skills of IAF. "It will be nightmare to ...."