JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[Nomad40]

The F-15SE i.e. The F-15 Silent Eagle was a proposed 4.5 generation low RCS advanced version of the F-15E Strike Eagle. It never got approved for service. Only in software games.

The e was a mistake F-15's*

 

[aliyusuf]

The e was a mistake F-15's*

That is moot.
From Block-50/52 onwards ... F-15's will be hampered by it's huge RCS against the Viper ... even greater than that of the Su-30. Eagle's strength lies in power projection i.e. range + payload + endurance. Both are accompanied by AWACS and EW platforms. Both share the same A2A munitions. The AESA equipped F-15's may get good challenge from the AESA equipped Vipers i.e. Block-60 and F-16V Block-70/72.

 

[FuturePAF]

That is moot.
From Block-50/52 onwards ... F-15's will be hampered by it's huge RCS against the Viper ... even greater than that of the Su-30. Eagle's strength lies in power projection i.e. range + payload + endurance. Both are accompanied by AWACS and EW platforms. Both share the same A2A munitions. The AESA equipped F-15's may by get good challenge from the AESA equipped Vipers i.e. Block-60 and F-16V Block-70/72.

with its higher thrust more reliable engine, conformal fuel tanks, and small precision weapons now available; the late model F-16s make for a sustainable 4th generation fighter to keep in the USAF and ANG fleet. F-15 was designed at a time where only the larger planes could fit sensors with enough range and power to detect enemy force far enough away to best intercept and engage them. The F-16 is a mature enough non-stealth platform to do all those things the F-15 was originally envisioned for and more (except at the outer limits of altitude and speed, which isn’t needed as much these days)

The Air Force can transition to the F-35 for all the most modern missions, and upgrade the F-22 to retain the high altitude missions. The F-22 needs some kind of underwing stealthy Conformal fuel tanks to extend their range, if they hope to retain the F-15s intercepter capabilities.

 

[Nomad40]

That is moot.
From Block-50/52 onwards ... F-15's will be hampered by it's huge RCS against the Viper ... even greater than that of the Su-30. Eagle's strength lies in power projection i.e. range + payload + endurance. Both are accompanied by AWACS and EW platforms. Both share the same A2A munitions. The AESA equipped F-15's may get good challenge from the AESA equipped Vipers i.e. Block-60 and F-16V Block-70/72.

stop worrying about fighting f-15's and f-16, dont worry about block-60 and 70. The facts are we dont have enough of what we have, dont worry about AWACS, they wont be there all the time.

 

[aliyusuf]

stop worrying about fighting f-15's and f-16, dont worry about block-60 and 70. The facts are we dont have enough of what we have, dont worry about AWACS, they wont be there all the time.

There is no worry. There is just exchange of opinion.

 

[Readerdefence]

If ever china opens up about selling J-15s to Pak, Russia will jump in with SU-35s.

I wish China sells their SU-35s to us if we convince Russia for some direct new along with used Chinese

Hi thanks for your reply I beg to differ about Chinese selling su35 to PAF but I’m pretty much sure about Chinese j/11 onwards as Russian will be more interested in accommodating Chinese but some leverage like using Al series engines for PAF specific squads which is not a bad deal if Pakistan can manoeuvre through Chinese with a leave way for Russians also
Just a little off topic recently pakistan has allowed another Russian consortium to start laying the oil pipeline between Karachi and upward so things can move towards the directions which I have mentioned earlier
Thank you

 

[StormBreaker]

Hi thanks for your reply I beg to differ about Chinese selling su35 to PAF but I’m pretty much sure about Chinese j/11 onwards as Russian will be more interested in accommodating Chinese but some leverage like using Al series engines for PAF specific squads which is not a bad deal if Pakistan can manoeuvre through Chinese with a leave way for Russians also
Just a little off topic recently pakistan has allowed another Russian consortium to start laying the oil pipeline between Karachi and upward so things can move towards the directions which I have mentioned earlier
Thank you

Gradually, we will get more aligned to Russia as well and it won’t be long before we get to such terms of being allowed to acquire such level of arms

Hi thanks for your reply I beg to differ about Chinese selling su35 to PAF but I’m pretty much sure about Chinese j/11 onwards as Russian will be more interested in accommodating Chinese but some leverage like using Al series engines for PAF specific squads which is not a bad deal if Pakistan can manoeuvre through Chinese with a leave way for Russians also
Just a little off topic recently pakistan has allowed another Russian consortium to start laying the oil pipeline between Karachi and upward so things can move towards the directions which I have mentioned earlier
Thank you

I doubt We would even look at Chinese flankers if Russia formally allowed us SU-35s on installments or even if NOT on installments.

Either way, it’s Russia’s problem for not letting us their flanker so it leaves us with an option of getting chinese Copied SU-33 which is unethical trade but serves our requirement

 

[jupiter2007]

Gradually, we will get more aligned to Russia as well and it won’t be long before we get to such terms of being allowed to acquire such level of arms


I doubt We would even look at Chinese flankers if Russia formally allowed us SU-35s on installments or even if NOT on installments.

Either way, it’s Russia’s problem for not letting us their flanker so it leaves us with an option of getting chinese Copied SU-33 which is unethical trade but serves our requirement

It’s up to us not Russia. If our generals decided to go to that route, Russia will be more than happy to oblige. Russia want to improve but we have been giving mix signals to Russia.

 

[StormBreaker]

It’s up to us not Russia. If our generals decided to go to that route, Russia will be more than happy to oblige. Russia want to improve but we have been giving mix signals to Russia.

The biggest problem we could face or may have already faced with regards to acquiring SU-35 would be the option to choose avionics and missiles of our own select and that would be most probably chinese origin since Russia is lagging behind these days.

HMDS, BVRs, HOBS WVR, AShm and strong AESA radar especially since SU-35 has powerful engine and good power output, we can even try to get J-20s radar which has around 2200 TRMs reportedly.

That would be the deadliest machine in sub continent if something like that happens.

Imagine, A SU-35 with very low RCS, housing a J-20 radar, mounted with 8 PL-15, not even rafale could match such thing !!!

 

[jupiter2007]

The biggest problem we could face or may have already faced with regards to acquiring SU-35 would be the option to choose avionics and missiles of our own select and that would be most probably chinese origin since Russia is lagging behind these days.

HMDS, BVRs, HOBS WVR, AShm and strong AESA radar especially since SU-35 has powerful engine and good power output, we can even try to get J-20s radar which has around 2200 TRMs reportedly.

That would be the deadliest machine in sub continent if something like that happens.

Imagine, A SU-35 with very low RCS, housing a J-20 radar, mounted with 8 PL-15, not even rafale could match such thing !!!

Russia offered Mig-35 which we rejected.

Russia would agree if we order between 48 to 60 SU-35. It be straight 60 or 36 + 24 order, cost around $4.5 to $5 billon.

 

[StormBreaker]

Russia offered Mig-35 which we rejected.

Russia would agree if we order between 48 to 60 SU-35. It be straight 60 or 36 + 24 order, cost around $4.5 to $5 billon.

Migs of 4th generation are worthless given what’s available in market.

As for the numbers, we are ok with just 24-36 SU-35 with even 24 being enough but the specs should be as per what i said above.

Who wants a maintenance nightmare in that huge numbers.

Idiots like IAF can

 

[jupiter2007]

Migs of 4th generation are worthless given what’s available in market.

As for the numbers, we are ok with just 24-36 SU-35 with even 24 being enough but the specs should be as per what i said above.

Who wants a maintenance nightmare in that huge numbers.

Idiots like IAF can

India is Russia’s biggest defense customer but Russia know that India most likely won’t go for more Russian fighter planes. Indians will get more Rafale and probably make a deal for Saab JAS 39 Gripen with Transfer of technology (local assembly).

As far as SU-35 deal, Russia won’t sell 24, not even 36 to Pakistan. They wants huge order from Pakistan to keep their defense industry going. This will keep the assembling line going for another 5 to 7 years.

 

[Armchair]

Correction. It is the phases of moon which effect tides and thereby creating clutter due to cycling variation in the tidal waves. This is still much lower compared to ground clutter. To clarify - there is no direct effect of moonlight to radar echo otherwise.

I meant ocean waves : )

yes opinions are respected but related to our air diplomacy, we will never get blk 70 never f-35, hand full mlu's and couple blk-52 is too thin against 240+ su30mki and jf-17 is late so will be azm what we need is a new superiority fighter and strike air craft. if bharat mata ki gay gets more Rafael's which it will than we will not have any upper hand.

You seem privy to what Azm looks like. My guess is its a semi stealth fighter with recessed weapons no internal bay.
This makes sense because stealth 5th gen is not the future at least not in the subcontinent, but rather a 6th gen which balances stealth requirements.
If its twin engined, it will be an air superiority fighter.

Let's think numbers.
300 jft + 80 f16s = 380 jets
Vs
240 mki + 50 m2000 + 50 mig29 + 50 rafale = 390 jets
Now factor in actual combat availability which is significantly lower for the Indians.
Even if they increase numbers by a hundred above PAF, the position is still defensible.
Factor in home advantage and Sams.
Factor in sortie rates.
I think the game will be relatively even.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

The biggest problem we could face or may have already faced with regards to acquiring SU-35 would be the option to choose avionics and missiles of our own select and that would be most probably chinese origin since Russia is lagging behind these days.

HMDS, BVRs, HOBS WVR, AShm and strong AESA radar especially since SU-35 has powerful engine and good power output, we can even try to get J-20s radar which has around 2200 TRMs reportedly.

That would be the deadliest machine in sub continent if something like that happens.

Imagine, A SU-35 with very low RCS, housing a J-20 radar, mounted with 8 PL-15, not even rafale could match such thing !!!

My thoughts

 

[airomerix]

I said it Once, I will say it twice. Pakistan will not buy new platforms, I dont know why every one around us is improving (even the afghans with their perspective) PAF seems to make major blunders when it come to integration of new equipment

What made you think PAF is making blunders? Please take into consideration Pakistan's diplomatic standing and its military buildup vis a vis India. We are far ahead when it comes to indigenization and inhouse upgradation. We took Mirages of 60s and retrofitted them to release stand off weapons. Today India has to worry about some 100 odd BVR capable JF-17s which can pop up from anywhere. This is before we get to 76 F-16s capable of launching 6 AMRAAM's each.

Look at Iran. They have been rebuilding F-5's and calling them different names. Your Afghan example barely fits here too.

I think Mainly because of the Budgeting issues we will never know the truth just speculation.

Budget constraints are there. Its no secret. Despite a tiny budget in literal terms, we have been at war since years now. Do you know how much 1 hour of F-16's sortie costs?

As far as new type Air craft go we will get it bu the start or mid of 2030's this plat form will be called the AZM which will have performances similar to the su-35/ef-2000 but in Chinese stealth and smaller size.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

The azm fighter will be 10-15 years behind and the rest of the world would have already started mass production planning for 6th generation fighter jets(if not sooner) when our air force should be really really working to get a 5th gen or 4.5+ gen fighter they are working and spending money (escalating commitment) on AZM style fighter. PAF has no designs layout no jigs we haven't seen a plan yet (2020).

Nope. Poor assessment. I hope you're working for the IAF's air intelligence. Do feed them this information. It will come in handy for us.

The plane we drool upon the F-22 raptor will be up for heavy upgrading (30 years old) and the F-16 (50 years +) will be totally out and obsolete completely replaced by 1800 f-35 and newer inventory for F-15/A-10 types.

Is Jf-17 a good plane? YES!!! but for how long if we dont get something for its support, 5 years.

JF-17 Block III which has flown today is ready to challenge 4.5 generation fighters over the next 15 years. You have no idea what a PL-15 is capable of once it gets mated with AESA on a platform of a tiny RCS.

F-16 which was made in the 1978 and those being produced have only 2 similarities, The name and Design. what will you do when F-16 is stopped for production (pretty soon) Lockheed has 1800 USAF f-35 contracts and many more for USN and Marines as well as other countries.

Closure of F-16s production line is irrelevant to its performance.

No matter how much you upgrade the single engine multirole fighter it will be outgunned&surprised buy stealth's and the plane that starts with R that is unless Block 70 is in our hands block 52 has another 15 years left but that's all and so is the jf-17 block 1 2 & 3 after 10 years when y'all be 10 years older more kids more expenses more gadgets more bla bla electric cars and green energy and plant meat is more popular and ROBOCOP is here than you will be in deep deep shit if planning and acquisition will not start ASAP for a up-to date fighter (not AZM) its late scrap it please please please get something integrate it upgrade it for FS divert those investments to integration and modernizing other types of stealth. we only have handful of F-16s but we have Topgun pilots that make good use of block15Q MLU tape 3/4.

Can you try to be a little more scientific or logical in your approach? What is it with all this rhetoric?

Project AZM is a 5th stealth program. Over the course of its development, it will be equipped with state of the art technologies may it be from 6th generation or whatever is available to us. The fact that AZM is still in its premature state gives us an edge to make it even better and well suited to the battle of the future.

Tejas is just one example of rolling out an aircraft early and then getting succumb to its mediocrity and its eventual design obsoleteness.